Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Markus Neteler ha scritto: On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Ari Jolma [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the map description file would refer to and the software use when creating the map. Do I make any sense? Absolutely. I have created a wiki page for this, too: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_map_symbol_set First symbol sets are already available (see there for links). What about creating also one or more free sets of icons, to be reused by various desktop web clients? pc -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
GDAL has feature style specification: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained some new interest. Well, GDAL is close to the FOSS4G community so why not start with this and see where we can go? I think OSGEO even has some capable expertise somewhere in the organization that may have a few thoughts (SMILE). I'm interested in learning more if anyone has some experience. How could this be incorporated into the worflow? Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Sampson, David wrote: GDAL has feature style specification: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained some new interest. Well, GDAL is close to the FOSS4G community so why not start with this and see where we can go? I think OSGEO even has some capable expertise somewhere in the organization that may have a few thoughts (SMILE). I'm interested in learning more if anyone has some experience. How could this be incorporated into the worflow? Dave, In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard rather than the ideosyncratic OGR feature styling specification. If anything, I'd like to phase out the OGR feature styling in favor of something else more widely supported at some point in the future. Best regards, -- ---+-- I set the clouds in motion - turn up | Frank Warmerdam, [EMAIL PROTECTED] light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam and watch the world go round - Rush| President OSGeo, http://osgeo.org ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 06:53:19PM +0300, Ari Jolma wrote: Frank Warmerdam kirjoitti: In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard I'm right now looking at SVG. It is a full graphics description language, but maybe the styling information could be somehow picked out an reused for our purposes. SVG is becoming more popular and for example many symbol sets (also mapping symbols) are already in SVG. Thus we'd also need tools for parsing SVG. SVG *isn't* a rule language: SVG is one possible output of taking a Rule language (SLD), combining it with geography and attributes (GML, Shapefile, what have you), and creating a final product. Other products could include raster images (PNG, JPG), Other vector formats (VML, Canvas in the browser, PDF, PS, .ai), or encodings into things like KML. If the stylings that are distributed with geodatasets are SVG, then producing SVG maps would be easier, wouldn't it? I'm not sure this really makes sense. SVG is a style language. SLD is a Rule language. SLD is the source: SVG is the destination (one of many). Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
One addition to what Chris points out, to complicate things :-), SVG vector symbols can also be used inside an SLD document (for a Mark). To be even more precise, we are really talking about the Symbology Encoding (SE) spec here. SLD as of version 1.1 only deals with the integration of symbology encoding into WMS. Symbology (and the rules) was taken out of SLD since it is more generic than only WMS. But most current implementations still use SLD 1.0 where all is in one spec. http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/symbol Best regards, Bart Christopher Schmidt wrote: On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 06:53:19PM +0300, Ari Jolma wrote: Frank Warmerdam kirjoitti: In my opinion we would be better off starting with a widely accepted standard like SLD as a basis of a feature styling standard I'm right now looking at SVG. It is a full graphics description language, but maybe the styling information could be somehow picked out an reused for our purposes. SVG is becoming more popular and for example many symbol sets (also mapping symbols) are already in SVG. Thus we'd also need tools for parsing SVG. SVG *isn't* a rule language: SVG is one possible output of taking a Rule language (SLD), combining it with geography and attributes (GML, Shapefile, what have you), and creating a final product. Other products could include raster images (PNG, JPG), Other vector formats (VML, Canvas in the browser, PDF, PS, .ai), or encodings into things like KML. If the stylings that are distributed with geodatasets are SVG, then producing SVG maps would be easier, wouldn't it? I'm not sure this really makes sense. SVG is a style language. SLD is a Rule language. SLD is the source: SVG is the destination (one of many). Regards, -- Bart van den Eijnden OSGIS, Open Source GIS [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.osgis.nl ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Jachym Cepicky wrote: www.openstreetmap.org The site isn't working for me. While trying to retrieve the URL: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/ The following error was encountered: * Read Error The system returned: (104) Connection reset by peer An error condition occurred while reading data from the network. Please retry your request. All I need is a zip file with limited data of, for instance, a city. Any city will do. As long is I just get the raw vector data and a small explanation of how to use it. With Open Street map, I don't have access to the help/wiki and my first impression of the (blank) home page is that I'll have to compile my own data set. I don't have time for that. I don't ask you being 'PDF newbies' to read the PDF Reference (1,200+ pages), but I'll be happy to explain every feature that could be useful in a GIS application. In return I ask only one favor: please give me some data I can use without doing any extra GIS effort. I'm willing to write some Java code for free, but I'm not a GIS developer (haven't done any GIS development in the last 9 years). best regards, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Bruno Lowagie ha scritto: On the left, you have a menu. With this menu you can CHANGE the language of the street names. They are in English by default, but you can change them into French or Dutch. You also have menu options to visualize where to find hotels, museums, etc... This is only a simple example. It would be easy to provide links so that you go to the site of a restaurant when you click on on icon. All this does not show off in evince, however. pc -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc Io voto per il software libero: http://elezioni.softwarelibero.it/info/iniziativa Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Paolo Cavallini wrote: All this does not show off in evince, however. Evince is as they promote it simply a document viewer. It's not a full blown PDF viewer (well, maybe it is for most users, but for me as an avid PDF user it isn't). Evince doesn't support all the features that are explained in the PDF Reference manual. OCG was introduced in PDF 1.5 (dating back from 2003). You will see the OCG layers in Adobe Reader starting with version 6.0. br, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On 14.04.2008 10:31, Paolo Cavallini wrote: Bruno Lowagie ha scritto: On the left, you have a menu. With this menu you can CHANGE the language of the street names. They are in English by default, but you can change them into French or Dutch. You also have menu options to visualize where to find hotels, museums, etc... This is only a simple example. It would be easy to provide links so that you go to the site of a restaurant when you click on on icon. All this does not show off in evince, however. But it does work in Acrobat Reader 8, on Linux, however :) --Wolf -- :3 ) Wolf Bergenheim ( 8: ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Bruno Lowagie ha scritto: Evince is as they promote it simply a document viewer. It's not a full blown PDF viewer (well, maybe it is for most users, but for me as an avid PDF user it isn't). Evince doesn't support all the features that are explained in the PDF Reference manual. OCG was introduced in PDF 1.5 (dating back from 2003). You will see the OCG layers in Adobe Reader starting with version 6.0. So the question is: is there a free (as speech) and Open Source full blown PDF viewer? I think OSGeo is about open source software. Thanks. pc -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc Io voto per il software libero: http://elezioni.softwarelibero.it/info/iniziativa Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Paolo Cavallini wrote: So the question is: is there a free (as speech) and Open Source full blown PDF viewer? I think OSGeo is about open source software. I'm a F/OSS developer, so I'm going to use my standard answer: What's keeping you from adding OCG support to Evince? *LOL* My own library iText is 'free' as in 'free beer'; although it is available under the MPL/LGPL it's supposed to be free as in 'free speech' too, but I don't agree with the FSF argument that Licensed Software (any license: GPL, LGPL, MPL,...) is free as in 'free speech'. If it were, companies using iText wouldn't keep on harassing me about the license (and about the fact that they don't like the MPL/LGPL). If iText were really Free, they wouldn't have any reason for not using iText. I interpret the 'Free' in 'Free Software' as 'Free to pay for value' (Google for 'Voluntary Economies'). But than again: companies like Google for instance use iText in many different project but they've never paid anything for using it. That's why when people lecture me about 'Free Software' annoy me: most of them USE F/OSS for free (as in Free Beer), but the number of people CONTRIBUTING (*) source or PAYING for value is very limited. (*) By the way: this is the list of people who contributed code to the iText project: http://www.1t3xt.com/about/acknowledgments/index.php br, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Brent Fraser kirjoitti: Bruno, Have a go with my favorite Canadian topographic map (NTS:082H04, Waterton Lakes ): Shapefiles: http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_shp/082/h/canvec_082h04_shp.zip Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these 39 layers makes me ask why there's no style information? Pardon my ignorance on digital cartography, but is it because of standards or something else? How do Arc* tools do it? I think that's one crucial point in this thread. We all do have our favorite software and want-to-have-software for creating a map or geovisualization from this. Maybe a common goal would be to write a specification how to create a map from this data -- note that there is an infinite number of maps that one could create. I'd like to have a file or files associated with datasets like this, that I'd just open in my favorite software and it'd show me a map and not data. The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the map description file would refer to and the software use when creating the map. Do I make any sense? Cheers, Ari -- Prof. Ari Jolma Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Ari, Traditionally, there has been no widely adopted vendor/system-independent format for specifying style information. Hopefully now that there is an organization (the OGC) addressing open standards for geographic data (including styling: SLD) there will be more support for a styling standard. Wouldn't it be great if data suppliers delivered a .sld (or something like it) with .shp? And Open Source software like Quantum, gvSig, OpenJump, and Mapserver actual read the styling and applied it? Other comments below... Brent Fraser GeoAnalytic Inc. Calgary, Alberta - Original Message - From: Ari Jolma [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OSGeo Discussions discuss@lists.osgeo.org Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library Brent Fraser kirjoitti: Bruno, Have a go with my favorite Canadian topographic map (NTS:082H04, Waterton Lakes ): Shapefiles: http://ftp2.cits.rncan.gc.ca/pub/canvec/50k_shp/082/h/canvec_082h04_shp.zip Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these 39 layers makes me ask why there's no style information? Pardon my ignorance on digital cartography, but is it because of standards or something else? How do Arc* tools do it? Arc* tools, like almost every other GIS tool, have their own method (some kind of ESRI-specific XML-ish file?). I think that's one crucial point in this thread. We all do have our favorite software and want-to-have-software for creating a map or geovisualization from this. Maybe a common goal would be to write a specification how to create a map from this data -- note that there is an infinite number of maps that one could create. I'd like to have a file or files associated with datasets like this, that I'd just open in my favorite software and it'd show me a map and not data. A very good goal. The great thing about default styling is that it can produce a good looking map. You could then change the styling if you want to (because without it you HAVE to; what a productivity killer!). The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the map description file would refer to and the software use when creating the map. That would be good too... Do I make any sense? Yes! ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Thanks for the pointer, that's a nice dataset. Opening these 39 layers makes me ask why there's no style information? Pardon my ignorance on digital cartography, but is it because of standards or something else? How do Arc* tools do it? Think of three separate boxes. One is tabulart data (tables), in the ESRI world these are youf *.dbf files, another is geomatery (lines, points, polygons) found in your *.shp files and the final box is the styling (realy schnzy shirts and ties) equivalent to SLD in the open source web mapping world but ESRI also has their cartographic representations layer (or something like that). Often in digital geomatics we focus on the data and geometry. Usualy they apear seamlessly the SHP is connected to the DBF. So now we are talking about adding in the third box in a standards compliant, interoperable and open source manner (I am assuming)... Why do you arc tools have styling?. Perhaps someone has created the styling as is often the Value add portion to data resellers like DMTI. But the styling is based on the data... So it has nothing to do with the data and relatively nothing to do with the software as GRASS, QGIS, JUMP, UDIG, MAPSERVER can all save projects with various styling, they just don't all use the same approach. Some approaches like SLD's (Styled layer descriptor) or context documents (maybe not full styling) help with this. I think these issues are a PART of this proposed library but I don't think is the focus as styling is covered with SLD and context documents etc. Cheers ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Hey folks, Lots of good discussion going on around this proposed library. From the sounds of it there are many different camps of thinking on this subject which is great. Of course there are many approaches that can be used. Perhaps we might want to talk a little more about the high end user needs and work backwards. For instance if the end user does not want PDF's or has other requirements then symatical debate on the best PDF engine may not be required right now. There is an end User Needs section http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library#End_User_Needs where PDF is only one required output. For starters I think bringing the FOSS4G world into the world of cartographic product production would be a huge jump. Whether is be digital-digital or digital-paper. Being able to do this using many applications and some custom API I think would keep flexibility open. So if many libraries can be included, lets include them. We'll all have different user requirements. Of course staying standards based where possible would be ideal so using context documents or SLD or something simmilar as an optional output would increase up take. As a final user product I would love to see something that ties easy drag/drop, point and click interactive design interface with real time screen refresh that could produce something akin to a Generic Maptool Tools (http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/) script to produce a preview before I print it. Of course having options to use java and python to script workflows would suite the needs of power users who balk at GUI's. I know that the seprate projects will be responsible for the GUI. If we work backwards from the functionality of the GUI though I think we can find the pieces we need. Infact producing a full cartographic map layout in SCRIBUS or using it's technology might be the best way to not reinvent the wheel for the end user. Has anyone thught out the Pseudo code for the process? Posted on wiki http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library#Worflow * read geo data * geometries * projection * metadata (if required) * apply styling * feature to style coding * Cartographic edits * overide some of the geometry if required (eg roads don't run through lakes) * manual edits / retouching * Produce other cartographic edits objects * create suround * create grids * create legend * create scale bar * create north arrow * Copyright notices from text file or DB * Licensing notices from text fiel or DB * Other * Output size La la la I'll post this to the wiki, maybe flushing this step out will allow us to match a library(ies) to a task(s). Hopefully we don't get hung up too much on choosing a narrow selection of libraries and keep the carto library itself quite open and flexible. Just some thoughts. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Ari Jolma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second thing would be to have a free OSGeo map symbol set, which the map description file would refer to and the software use when creating the map. Do I make any sense? Absolutely. I have created a wiki page for this, too: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_map_symbol_set First symbol sets are already available (see there for links). Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Brent Fraser kirjoitti: Ari, Traditionally, there has been no widely adopted vendor/system-independent format for specifying style information. Hopefully now that there is an organization (the OGC) addressing open standards for geographic data (including styling: SLD) there will be more support for a styling standard. I looked around in the web a bit and found this: http://utpjournals.metapress.com/content/b584484743vk910g/ (I don't have access to Cartographica so can't read this). ESRI seems to have .mxd files, which is their map definition file. It's a binary format and probably not documented. Then they have ArcXML (AXL) which serves the same purpose () as Mapserver mapfiles. BTW, mapfile format is a result of a lot of thought and practical experience. I believe some tools (QGIS?) can export mapfiles (can they import them?). OGC Styled Layer Descriptor specification does not impress me, and it's WMS implementation specific. GDAL has feature style specification: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained some new interest. In my work I deal a lot with scientific data and geovisualization type of thing, and it would be very useful to be able to import and export visualization information files from desktop apps. Sometimes the problem solving could be based on shared development of such files. Just thinking out loud, Ari -- Prof. Ari Jolma Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
ESRI seems to have .mxd files, which is their map definition file. It's a binary format and probably not documented. Then they have ArcXML (AXL) which serves the same purpose () as Mapserver mapfiles. BTW, mapfile format is a result of a lot of thought and practical experience. I believe some tools (QGIS?) can export mapfiles (can they import them?). While I think it is ok to store styling information in a map definition file, I think it should be used only if the user has applied their own styling, different from the default supplied with the data. Just like .prj files tag along to define the geometry of a geographic dataset, a default style file (.OSF?!) should tag along to define the default rendering. OGC Styled Layer Descriptor specification does not impress me, and it's WMS implementation specific. GDAL has feature style specification: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html It has recently gained some new interest. I missed that! Thanks for the link! In my work I deal a lot with scientific data and geovisualization type of thing, and it would be very useful to be able to import and export visualization information files from desktop apps. Sometimes the problem solving could be based on shared development of such files. Good point. For me the lack of default styling info is a major productivity killer. Our users want to importl basemap data, then spend their time solving geographic problems, not setting ROADS=RED, RIVERS=BLUE, etc. If you are using styling to expose subtler patterns in data, it's even more important to be able to share it. Brent ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Ari Jomla wrote: GDAL has feature style specification: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_feature_style.html Hey, that's pretty cool. Almost JSON or WKT-like. MapGuide has a similar XML-based stylization schema: http://trac.osgeo.org/mapguide/wiki/MapGuideRfc14 Jason ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Actually the origional point was valid; SLD is pretty darn WMS specific. That is why we got them to split it into two; SLD for the WMS concepts of layers and so on; and SE for the really good part (FeatureTypeStyle and friends). For more fun and games drop by the osgeo standards email list and we can leave these nice people alone. Jody (osgeo standards list - now with less epsg axis order flamewars) ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Markus Neteler kirjoitti: Dear OSGeo, I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library I proposed a year ago to develop a geospatial graphics library based on Cairo http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/2007-April/003142.html I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs. Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata, legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it much more in the future. What I think is needed first, and would be the core content of the library is 1) a mapping of style information into Cairo commands, 2) capability to render cartographic symbols on maps, and 3) a mechanism to allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map, 4) symbol and label placement algorithms. Second need would perhaps be support for various geovisualization methods. 1) is rather straight-forward, I guess, using OGC Styled Layers standard 2) I'm not sure, there seems to be free resources like http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1999/of99-430/ which offer symbols in EPS -- I don't find support in Cairo to render EPS on surfaces 3) is rather straight-forward 4) start from simple and existing codes Cairo is of course just one technology and not suited for all needs in this domain. Furthermore, the data provider can be made separate from the library, but I'd like to start with and use GDAL (OGR in fact) as the default. Anyway, I'd like to finally get going with this and start drafting an API. Any ideas how to proceed? Set up a svn repository somewhere? Regards, Ari -- Prof. Ari Jolma Geoinformatiikka / Geoinformatics Teknillinen Korkeakoulu / Helsinki University of Technology tel: +358 9 451 3886 address: POBox 1200, 02015 TKK, Finland Email: ari.jolma at tkk.fi URL: http://www.tkk.fi/~jolma ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 11:18:48AM +0300, Ari Jolma wrote: I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs. Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata, legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it much more in the future. I think that for the task you've described, looking into Mapnik might be a good idea. What I think is needed first, and would be the core content of the library is 1) a mapping of style information into Cairo commands, 2) capability to render cartographic symbols on maps, and 3) a mechanism to allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map, 4) symbol and label placement algorithms. Second need would perhaps be support for various geovisualization methods. 1), 2), and 4) already exist in Mapnik. 3) seems to me like it can either be added to Mapnik, or added via post-processing, without needing to reimplement 1), 2) or 4). Cairo is of course just one technology and not suited for all needs in this domain. Furthermore, the data provider can be made separate from the library, but I'd like to start with and use GDAL (OGR in fact) as the default. Mapnik has support for PostGIS and Shapefiles, but has a plugin-based architecture for reading data, so I would not be surprised to find that an OGR plugin for data access would be too difficult for someone experienced in C++/C. Anyway, I'd like to finally get going with this and start drafting an API. Any ideas how to proceed? Set up a svn repository somewhere? I'd strongly recommend starting by looking at existing solutions. Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt Web Developer ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Christopher Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 11:18:48AM +0300, Ari Jolma wrote: I'm still very much interested in this. Cairo would provide a single API to render to an image buffer, on PDF and others. It has good support for rendering text with various fonts and there are high-level language APIs. Currently Cairo can be used in Geoinformatica to render geodata, legends, etc. on a map. I'm already using that a bit and will use it much more in the future. I think that for the task you've described, looking into Mapnik might be a good idea. Some more is here: http://grass.osgeo.org/grass63/manuals/html63_user/cairodriver.html Markus ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Ari Jolma wrote: Markus Neteler kirjoitti: Dear OSGeo, I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library 3) a mechanism to allow plugins that add legends etc. on the map 3) is rather straight-forward Actually, dealing with the legend, or the contents of the entire map collar, is non-trivial, however, a library that can render the content within a map's neat line has all the tools necessary to be able to render the map's collar. The difference may be that there would need to be some additional functionality, or different methods of calling the same underlying functionality, in order to make the tasks involved in composing the collar easy. -- Dave Patton CIS Canadian Information Systems Victoria, B.C. Degree Confluence Project: Canadian Coordinator Technical Coordinator http://www.confluence.org/ OSGeo FOSS4G2007 conference: Workshop Committee Chair Conference Committee member http://www.foss4g2007.org/ Personal website: Maps, GPS, etc. http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Dave Patton wrote: Actually, dealing with the legend, or the contents of the entire map collar, is non-trivial, however, a library that can render the content within a map's neat line has all the tools necessary to be able to render the map's collar. The difference may be that there would need to be some additional functionality, or different methods of calling the same underlying functionality, in order to make the tasks involved in composing the collar easy. If you make the map in PDF, you could provide the legend as a floating annotation that can be moved around by the user. If you are using OCG, you also have the Optional Content panel that can be used as a legend and that can be used to make certain layers visible/invisible. All this is fairly easy to achieve in PDF. br, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On 13-Apr-08, at 9:23 AM, Bruno Lowagie wrote: If you make the map in PDF, you could provide the legend as a floating annotation that can be moved around by the user. If you are using OCG, you also have the Optional Content panel that can be used as a legend and that can be used to make certain layers visible/invisible. For me the question of PDF is not limited by number of pages, or options that PDF offers, but whether or not it is an efficient format for sharing cartographic information - for which, so far, I'd say it fails miserably. How many times have I went to a municipal mapping site only to find their maps are all in PDF - what a pain! It might just be me though :) Also, in the operational/industrial GIS map production environments I've been in, we've needed easy ways to print and re-print maps without having to open a viewer (and our printers didn't support PDF natively - though I assume some do now). To print, I've focused on native plotter file formats and/or Postscript since most plotters can support it. Of course this isn't going to be good for web distribution. For delivering digital files, I've often converted the PS files into PDF but it's been far from ideal. I increasingly believe that web- based tools are going to be the only option. So what about off-line delivery? A CD or USB runable system is an interesting and more effective way than a PDF in some cases, though of course both have some memory overhead issues. So, is it just me or does stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map into a PDF makes a huge file that is virtually unusable unless you have gigabytes of RAM and dual processors. Delivering a 40MB PDF to client who is running an old computer doesn't bode well for your service ;-) For what it's worth, Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) wrote: For me the question of PDF is not limited by number of pages, or options that PDF offers, but whether or not it is an efficient format for sharing cartographic information - for which, so far, I'd say it fails miserably. How many times have I went to a municipal mapping site only to find their maps are all in PDF - what a pain! It might just be me though :) It depends on how they are made. Do they have a street index that allows you to jump to the exact location when you click on a streetname? Are they made out of raster images converted to PDF or are they drawn using vector data? Also, in the operational/industrial GIS map production environments I've been in, we've needed easy ways to print and re-print maps without having to open a viewer (and our printers didn't support PDF natively - though I assume some do now). To print, I've focused on native plotter file formats and/or Postscript since most plotters can support it. Of course this isn't going to be good for web distribution. There are ways to work around that print problem ;-) For delivering digital files, I've often converted the PS files into PDF but it's been far from ideal. But then you get a 'flat' PDF without any interactivity. I don't see any added value when you convert PS to PDF. I increasingly believe that web-based tools are going to be the only option. So what about off-line delivery? A CD or USB runable system is an interesting and more effective way than a PDF in some cases, though of course both have some memory overhead issues. So, is it just me or does stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map into a PDF makes a huge file that is virtually unusable unless you have gigabytes of RAM and dual processors. Delivering a 40MB PDF to client who is running an old computer doesn't bode well for your service ;-) Er... stuffing a 1:20,000 topo map. The fact that you mention 1:20,000 indicates that you are probably talking about raster images, not about vector data. If you write the vector data to a PDF, all the data is compressed. You get really small file sizes when compared to other solutions. In short: the major problem with PDF in the GIS world is a lack of understanding of the Portable Document Format by people who are specialized in GIS. Of course PDF sucks if you just stuff if with raster images or use a PDF that was converted from PS. Even a FOP generated PDF has no added value. As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples. br, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
www.openstreetmap.org j Bruno Lowagie píše v Po 14. 04. 2008 v 07:26 +0200: Bruno Lowagie wrote: As soon as I have the time, I'll make you some examples. My main problem is that I haven't been on a GIS project since 1997. Can somebody provide me with some (completely free!) sample data: - vector data with streets and street names in multiple languages - vector data of some shapes (for instance a city, municipalities) - some additional data, for instance: location of hotels, landmarks,... If you provide me with such a data set, I'll make you a PDF and show why I think PDF is an ideal format. br, Bruno ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Jachym Cepicky e-mail: jachym.cepicky gmail com URL: http://les-ejk.cz GPG: http://www.les-ejk.cz/pgp/jachym_cepicky-gpg.pub signature.asc Description: Toto je digitálně podepsaná část zprávy ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Frank Warmerdam wrote: Markus Neteler wrote: Dear OSGeo, I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch. There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and certainly of programming language compatibility. Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas. Markus, There is definitely a need for better cartographic quality output options. The wiki page did not seem to touch on cartographic surround and map composition which I think is really a major whole currently. That is putting together a product suitable for printing as a map with titles, legends, and map surround components all appropriately and professionally styled. I have added a brief note on this. Is this an objective of the proposed effort? Also, I think, it is a very important question to decide what output format is the primary target. That is, whether the objective is to produce products in postscript/pdf with the vector and text preserved in a non-rasterized format. The alternative is to produce a raster product, with us using something like AGG+freetype to render all vector and text content as part of the process. Hi, coming from boring old standards land I wanted to add that we have started a change request to WMS that allows to add a resolution parameter to request for images used in high quality prints. Current discussion is focusing on a parameter called PIXEL_SIZE which will allow to request maps that have a pixel size smaller than the standard 0.28 mm (~72dpi). We don't want to miss the rise of cartography in web mapping... Regards, Arnulf. While I generally think making postscript/pdf our primary target would give the most professional product, it will also likely be harder work, and will require skills that are less common in our developer community. If we did the direct-to-raster approach we can build on quite a bit of AGG rendering expertise in the mapserver, mapguide and mapnik communities for instance. I've also suggested under programming languages that the library be implemented in C++ but with a C API for external interface to the library. This model has proven valuable for GDAL as a way to present a less fragile interface to the outside world, making it easier to keep the library less tightly bound to the calling application. BTW, would it be an objective to be able to show the map to the user as it is being composed? Knowing this may well affect above decisions. For instance, if the library produces PDF this could be pretty challenging to use in an interactive map composer application. Best regards, ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
I've tried to group some of discussion into various components that I think are being discussed all at once: 8.1 Style Layout Configuration Standards 8.2 Graphical Style Layout Editor 8.3 Graphical Map Composition Editor 8.4 Rendering Engine 8.5 Libraries I'm personally less interested in the GUI side than I am about standards and the rendering engine that understands those standards. Does this fit the initial vision you are presenting Markus? Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Hi, This is an interesting discussion! In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO, generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules. XSL-FO is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP. I'm of the opinion that a pipeline like: GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics = XSLT = SVG+XSL-FO - pdf, (?geopdf anyone?) would make for a killer map scripting environment. Plus, it has the added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards across the board, with open source solutions available in each area. I will sign up for the discussion too! Cheers, Peter Rushforth Technology Advisor / Conseiller technique GeoConnections / GéoConnexions 650-615 Booth St. / rue Booth Ottawa ON K1A 0E9 E-mail / Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone / Télephone: (613) 943-0784 Fax / telecopier: (613) 947-2410 Use Cases: -- I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking web maps (more control of grid/graticule labeling) II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI) 1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description - provide an API to exiting GIS apps? III. Automated Mapping (script driven) 1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas (mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric documents (mostly text with some map, multi-page) 4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit page) Brent Fraser GeoAnalytic Inc. Calgary, Alberta ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
(Is GeoPDF open now? I was under the impression that they were claiming IP in there, but my info is a couple years old.) -mpg -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rushforth, Peter Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:56 AM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library Hi, This is an interesting discussion! In the XML world, the answer to graphics rendering is SVG + XSL-FO, generated by XSLT scripts according to styling rules. XSL-FO is then rendered via a formatting objects processor, like Apache FOP. I'm of the opinion that a pipeline like: GML +/- (any XML data) + SLD/FE + WMS graphics = XSLT = SVG+XSL-FO - pdf, (?geopdf anyone?) would make for a killer map scripting environment. Plus, it has the added benefit of being based on standards or de facto standards across the board, with open source solutions available in each area. I will sign up for the discussion too! Cheers, Peter Rushforth Technology Advisor / Conseiller technique GeoConnections / GéoConnexions 650-615 Booth St. / rue Booth Ottawa ON K1A 0E9 E-mail / Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone / Télephone: (613) 943-0784 Fax / telecopier: (613) 947-2410 Use Cases: -- I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking web maps (more control of grid/graticule labeling) II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI) 1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description - provide an API to exiting GIS apps? III. Automated Mapping (script driven) 1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas (mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric documents (mostly text with some map, multi-page) 4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit page) Brent Fraser GeoAnalytic Inc. Calgary, Alberta ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Hi all, among the OS GIS we are trying Map Layouts especially for Geoscience 1. using OpenJUMP where in tools are present for rotating Geological structural symbols. We have even printed to judge the accuracy of scale. 2. Shape file to SVG is a convenient option to color the final output in Inkscape. putting all the options together on a WIKI will be splendid. Cheers Ravi Kumar Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've tried to group some of discussion into various components that I think are being discussed all at once: 8.1 Style Layout Configuration Standards 8.2 Graphical Style Layout Editor 8.3 Graphical Map Composition Editor 8.4 Rendering Engine 8.5 Libraries I'm personally less interested in the GUI side than I am about standards and the rendering engine that understands those standards. Does this fit the initial vision you are presenting Markus? Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss - You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Dear Markus, I think this is a VERY good idea!! There's definitely a need for something like this that would help to get uniform output from a number of applications using the same markup. Ciao, Jeroen On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Markus Neteler wrote: Dear OSGeo, I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch. There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and certainly of programming language compatibility. Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas. Markus -- Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/ http://www.grassbook.org/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
Markus, Excellent! Here are some Use Cases to get the creative juices flowing: Use Cases: -- I. Interactive Browsing (e.g. web mapping) 1. Good-looking web maps (more control of grid/graticule labeling) II. Ad-hoc Authoring (one-time GIS style layout using GUI) 1. Good-looking printed (ps,pdf,etc) maps automatically providing grid/grat, scalebar, legend, north arrow, SRS description - provide an API to exiting GIS apps? III. Automated Mapping (script driven) 1. Map Series (single page, identical layout) 2. Map Atlas (mostly map with some text, multi-page) 3. Map-centric documents (mostly text with some map, multi-page) 4. Route Alignment Sheets (rotated (non 90 deg) to fit page) Brent Fraser GeoAnalytic Inc. Calgary, Alberta - Original Message - From: Markus Neteler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: OSGeo-discuss discuss@lists.osgeo.org Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library Dear OSGeo, I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library GRASS, QGIS and others are in the need of own map printing tools for high quality output but these projects should not start from scratch. There is a wealth of underlying code already in Mapserver, Mapguide etc which could be re-used in the terms of their respective licenses and certainly of programming language compatibility. Please hack the wiki page and post your ideas. Markus -- Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/ http://www.grassbook.org/ ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
On 7-Apr-08, at 1:53 AM, Markus Neteler wrote: I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: Thanks Markus - you beat me to it! :) Having grown up learning ArcPlot, I long for the ability to compose maps and output them in a high-quality plotter-ready format. Also, I miss the ability to script the creation of maps which is needed in many industrial or highly-productive mapping environments (e.g. GUI- based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices I've been in). I'll add my notes to the wiki and start to use the discussion page too. Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
2008/4/7, Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: GUI-based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices I've been in Spot on! -- Paulo Marcondes = PU1/PU2PIX -22.915 -42.224 = GG86jc ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library
More use-case driven development and improved GUIs, user experience and map production fall under specific topics at FOSS4G 2008 so this discussion is quite apt and I hope to see its fruit or at least some well-defined plans presented and discussed in Cape Town in September. As we know these are some of the remaining gaps that need filling to convince the hesitant masses to go open source. Gavin Fleming MSc, Pr. GISc Technologist Senior GISc and Sustainable Development Researcher FOSS4G2008 conference chair Mintek, 200 Malibongwe Drive (formerly Hans Strijdom Drive) P/Bag X3015, Randburg, 2125, South Africa w: +27-11-709-4668 c: 0845965680 f: 0866164820 xmpp (Jabber, Google Talk, etc.): [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: phlemingo 27.9782E 26.0896S From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo) Sent: Mon 2008/04/07 06:36 PM To: OSGeo Discussions Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Proposal: OSGeo Cartographic Library On 7-Apr-08, at 1:53 AM, Markus Neteler wrote: I would like to launch the idea of an OSGeo Cartographic Library to share concepts, source code and regression tests: Thanks Markus - you beat me to it! :) Having grown up learning ArcPlot, I long for the ability to compose maps and output them in a high-quality plotter-ready format. Also, I miss the ability to script the creation of maps which is needed in many industrial or highly-productive mapping environments (e.g. GUI- based map design tools are the bane of productivity in many offices I've been in). I'll add my notes to the wiki and start to use the discussion page too. Tyler ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss winmail.dat___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
