Re: [slim] Lightening!
Fozzy;643035 Wrote: In this case grounding at the customers premises probably acts more to protect the cable company's equipment and that of neighbouring customers that it does to protect your equipment. If any wire enter your house without being earthed, then all household appliances (even the furnace) are at risk. That cable company wire is earthed so that a surge does not enter via their cable. All telephone wires (not just one) are earthed by a 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco. Earthed also to protect all appliances. But wires that most often carry surge currents into the house are AC electric. If you have not earthed all (typ. three) incoming AC electric wires using a 'whole house' protector, then no effective surge protection exists. Dr Standler discusses this in his book Protection of Electronic Circuits from Overvoltage: This situation could be resolved by the use of mandatory standards ... At this time this book was written (1988), the author saw no hope of such standards being adopted in the United States for overvoltages on the mains. Assume two buildings are interconnected by an Ethernet cable. And that cable is not earthed at the service entrance of both buildings. Then a lightning strike to one building acts like a lightning rod connected to all computers inside the second building. Damage because that cable was not properly earthed where it entered each building. Every wire (all eight inside an Ethernet cable) must connect to earth. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88797 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Lightening!
CharlieG;642504 Wrote: This tech said he really didnt think the surge came from the cable. He thought my DVR and TV would have been damaged had the cable been the conduit. I told him I now have surge protectors for the cable and he was not impressed. Everything he said (and more he did not say) is correct. For example, show me spec numbers for your protectors that claimed any protection. Good luck. A majority recommend it only because salesmen, advertising, and hearsay told them how to think. Protectors on cable are wasted money. Most cable companies recommend they be removed since it subverts cable signal. And because that short connection to earth (without any protectors) is best protection. In every case, a surge is seeking earth ground. If the cable is earthed, then why would that surge seek earth via your TV? Well again, many people forget about electricity as taught in elementary school science. Does a surge enter on a cable, destroy a TV, then stops? Of course not. First a current is outgoing from the TV at the exact same time a surge is also incoming on another wire. If cable is the incoming path, then where is the other outgoing path to earth? If no path to earth exists, then the incoming path also did not exist. The most common reason for damage is, for example, a lightning strike to AC electric wires down the street. Now that surge is connected directly to every appliance in your house. But again, from elementary school science. What is the other outgoing path that must also exist? Lightning striking wires down the street selects which appliance makes a best connection to earth. That is the damaged appliance. All appliances have in incoming path. Only some also have an outgoing path. Meanwhile, a protector adjacent to an appliance can even give that surge even more paths to find earth - destructively. You had damage because you all but invited that surge to go hunting inside. Every wire in every incoming cable must be earthed short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. AC electric is three wires. Each wire must make that short earthing connection. Informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector (ie less than $50 in Lowes) to connect two wires to earth. And - this is more important - upgrade the only item that does any protection: single point earth ground. Protectors are more than fast enough IF the connection to earth is short. How fast are protectors? A number that increases significantly when wire is to earth is too long, has sharp bends, splices, is inside metallic conduit, or goes over the foundation to earth. Wire length to and quality of earth ground should have more than 50% of your attention. Because protection is always about the only item that must absorb hundreds of thousand of joules - with no damage even to a protector. Why did facilities even 100 years ago suffer direct lightning strikes without damage? Because the science and experience has been understood and proven for that long. Too many people today want magic solutions (fiber optic, plug-in protectors) because advertising is their information source. Instead, learn why direct lightning strikes without damage were routine long before anyone here was even born. Learn well proven science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88797 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
agillis;566964 Wrote: The key word here is should I have hard powered of Vortexboxes 100s of times with no problems but there are people who have had problems. Which is why those who learned how to think also saw the Challenger explosion as murder. If you did not, then you are probably curing symptoms rather the solving problems. If not, then you probably so hated America as to advocate the murder of 4000 American soldiers for the greater glory of a political agenda - in Iraq. The informed know and also know why they know using numbers. One either learns how to see and solve problems using principals taught in junior high science - ie the hypothesis and the experimental confirmation in numbers. Or one is easily scammed by a UPS that only solves a symptom. If an informed consumer, then no blackouts cause hardware damage or harm the Linux configuration. None. Those who are most easily deceived spend massively more for defective hardware. The spend more for a UPS to fix that defective hardware. No blackout harms a Vortexbox. If damage occurs, the informed consumer goes after the person who scammed him. Yes, the key word is 'should'. Because informed consumers learn where the problem exists. And those who blindly believe what they are told will blame anyone but themselves.The attitude - be intelligent - is strongly expressed in this post. You do not inherit intelligence. You learn it. It you do not ask damning questions, your are scammed by political extemsists and retail salesmen with only a high school education. Unfortunately, a majority will instead blame and solve symptoms. Definition of an informed consumer - someone who learns rather than believes popular myths. No blackout does damage to hardware sold by and purchased by informed consumers. A fact. Blackout created damage is a first indication of a technically naive consumer. One who is told how to think rather than ask damning questions. Whose eyes glaze over with each number. Who blindly believes technical myths from the high school educated salesman. One who believes rather that always demand numbers. One who does not constantly ask damning questions. Blackouts only cause damage to hardware sold by scammer to those who want to be scammed. If a Vortexbox does not have unsaved data, then a blackout causes no damage. It does not need a UPS. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
JJZolx;567041 Wrote: You had to quote the entire spiel to post that? Although I happen to agree with you. And a majority will agree with the most technically ignorant. A majority are not officer or college material. Will blindly believe what the high school educated retail salesman orders them to believe. Also called brainwashing. Cannot ask damning questions. Eyes glaze over with every number. Know only what popular myths say. Easily scammed by UPS hearsay recommendations. Only informed consumers know a Linux system is not and must not be harmed by blackouts. The naive who are told what to belive will only post insults - no facts, no numbers, insufficient kowledge, and plenty of insults. But that was always the point. Those with the least knownledge know a UPS is necessary because hearsay say so - while technical facts say otherwise. So why are the last two replies devoid of facts or even one number? Those most easily brainwashed by myth must do the Limbaugh thing. Dispareage. Insult. Mock. And not one honest fact. UPS is completely unnecessary if unsaved data does not exist. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
pfarrell;566448 Wrote: ... there are different types of UPS designs. The cheap ones switch quickly, the better ones are called line interactive and always charge the battery and always run off the battery (not the mains). Its rather easily to know which UPS is which. To have line interactive and 'clean' power, then UPS costs $500, $1000, or more. Most all UPSes are switches. Since a UPS is intended for electronics, that 'cheapest solution' is more than sufficient. Anything a UPS might do is already done better inside electronic appliances. And 'protection' provided by a line interactive UPS is already inside every electronic power supply. If that UPS AC to DC to AC conversion supplies protection, then the AC to DC to AC to DC again protection inside every electronics appliance is superior. The UPS does not have 1000 volts galvanic isolation. Computers do. Intel requirements demand that computer supplies be superior to other electronics appliances. All electronics already contains significant protection. Therefore additional protection is only for direct lightning strikes. Surges that typically occur once every seven years. Any protection a UPS might do is already inside the computer. Why is a UPS output (in battery backup mode) so 'dirty'? Why does a typical 120 volts UPS output 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts between those square waves? Because all electronics - especially computers - are so robust. Makes 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Most all UPSes connect the appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. They will do most anything to keep you confused. Many foolishly believe its AC power is generated from DC. Nonsense. Put a scope on the UPS output. When is its output cleanest? When the relay connects the appliance directly to AC mains. Anything a manufacturer can do to subvert knowledge gets the naive to claim a UPS 'cleans' electricity. Any urban myth that increases sales is a good thing. A Linux box (properly assembled) should recover harmlessly from unexpected power loss. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
garym;566214 Wrote: Also, any thoughts on what sort of bad things will happen when my vortexbox loses power unexpectedly ... And I'm new to linux systems. On my windows machine, it just goes off, reboots, and I'm back in business. All computers have done that since Windows NT. Only machines that could lose data due to an unexpected power off were Windows 95/ME vintage machines. Today, power off must never damage saved software. And unexpected power off - even 50 years ago - must never damage electronic hardware. UPS serves only one function - to provide temporary power so that you can save unsaved data. So that you need not be interrupted by the power loss. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566327 Wrote: Wrong: I've seen machines fail to come back due to power loss. When a car runs into a telephone pole, you do not get a clean shutdown at the OS level When a car hits a pole, all unsaved data is lost. Everything else is intact. Wrong in spades are the most naive who *know* only using observation. Also called junk science reasoning. A naive observer will be quick to blame power loss when his own technical ignorance was a most common reason for failure. In another example, the computer powered off suddenly. Well he blamed power off for the damage. He did junk science. He observed - that was knowledge. We did the autopsy. A pullup resistor to bootstrap the power supply controller had failed to due too many hours of continuous operation - a manufacturing defect. That resistor failed probably months earlier. Then when power was lost, the computer would not boot. Observation: power went off. Computer would not boot. Therefore that *proves* power loss causes damage. Science and reality: A manufacturing defect a month earlier created a failure only detectable after any power off. When does a disk drive learn that computer power is going off? When the 5 and 12 volts suddenly starts dropping. Again, those who do not first learn the science - who know only from observation - would not know that. A disk drive is never warned that power is being removed. All power offs ( shutdown, yank the power cord, car hitting a pole, entire state blackout) appear as the same power off to all disk drives. A reality that was true even when heads were moved by motor oil. Those educated only from hearsay - who only know from observation - would never know that. Those educated by observation immediately know unexpected power off causes damage. Amazing how observation alone becomes knowledge. Just like Windows, a power off do to any reason must not harm any Linux hardware. UPS has only one function - time to protect unsaved data. That Liux machine is equally fine with or without a UPS. Greater threats to that hardware are solve elsewhere - not by a UPS. Also requires knowledge not obtained from observation and hearsay. Linux is just as robust as Windows as are all other computers today. Linux has the same Windows features that make all power offs irrelevant. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566351 Wrote: Wrong: the AC input to your device goes all over the place. When someone posts that nasty, that dumb, that uneducated, and incessantly, then being polite to an asshole is useless. Reality taken from so many industry standards from the Computer Business Equipment Manufacturers association to Intel specifications for all power supplies. AC voltages can change so much as incandescent lamps dim to less than 40% intensity. And that is more than sufficient voltage for all computers. Regulation is the job of all computer power supplies. To maintain perfectly ideal DC voltages even when AC mains voltages vary that much. A spec even defines how long a power supply must output completely stable power when no AC input voltage exists. How does one know that when only using observation? Any regulation that a UPS might do is already done by a superior computer power supply. Why must computer work uninterrupted and normally when incandescent bulbs dim to 40% intensity? Because those requirements are what we (the people who go educated) must design to even long before the IBM PC existed. View the output of typical UPSes in battery backup mode. This 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Is that destructive? Potentially harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. And ideal perfect power for all computers and other electronics. Because all computer power supplies - even before the IBM PC existed - were required to be that robust and stable. How does one learn that reality from observation? What happens when the UPS switches from AC to battery? A long period of no power while the relay switches. And yes, all computers are required to provide stable uninterrupted DC power even during that switchover period. A period of no AC input power. Buy another function found in all computer power supplies to make events on AC mains irrelevant. UPS outputs the 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. No problem. Every computer is required to make that 'dirtiest' power into ideal perfect and stable DC. This was known over 40 years ago. Incandescent bulbs dim to below 50% intensity. And all electronics must operate uninterrupted.Computers are required to be even more robust. Those educated by hearsay and observation would not know. Will only reply nasty. Those educated only by observation also proved spontaneous reproduction. Many without basic science would not even know what spontaneous reproduction is. Victims of knowledge only from observation. The best voltage regulation is required inside every computer. Even required by international design standards. UPS has only one function - to provide temporary power to save unsaved data. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] UPS recommendations for my Vortexbox Appliance
snarlydwarf;566360 Wrote: Case in point from today: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/08/power-problems-damage-appliances-electronics-in-glendale.html A severe enough outage that it damaged electrical meters. A friend knows someone who actually knows this stuff. A 33,000 volt electric line fell upon local distribution. Hundreds of electric meters were blown 20 and 30 feet from the pan. Shattered. So many who had plug-in protectors had destroyed protectors and appliances. Obviously, a relay inside a UPS (that takes tens of milliseconds to respond) did nothing. Surge went right through that UPS damaging the UPS and electronics. At least one had a circuit breaker that would no longer reset. But my friend installed the only thing that does such protection. The solution that was installed even 100 years ago so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. He spend about $1 per protected appliance to earth one 'whole house' protector. He had no damage even to the protector. Only his electric meter was damaged. Read its numeric specs. No UPS claims protection in its numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules - or higher. Numbers that cannot be obtained using observation. The UPS has only hundreds of joules. How does that hundreds of joules absorb or stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It does not. And it is not suppose to. It claims near zero protection on the box. Then those without education will proclaims, That UPS does 100% surge protection! The naïve are that easily deceived. When does near zero protection do 100% protection? Why did my friend have no damage? He installed the only thing that protects from that type of anomaly. He did not listen to people educated by retail myths. Instead he viewed numbers, knew an engineer, and had zero damage. A solution that costs tens or 100 times less money per protected appliance. Only myth purveyors and fools educated by observation would think a UPS does any real protection. Even the manufacturers numeric specs do not claim surge protection. And still so many only recite what the salesman told them to believe. -- westom westom's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=39650 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=80889 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
