Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-06 Thread Ian
On Sat, 2010-11-06 at 00:09 +, jonathon wrote:
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 Hash: SHA1
 
 On 11/04/2010 10:32 PM, Ian wrote:
 
  Ask how many 15 year olds have drafted an essay on their cell phone.
 
 The primary demographic that writes 携帯小説 (keitai shousetsu) is
 believed to be females between the age of sixteen and twenty six.
 
 OTOH, the first work to be described as 携帯小説 was written by a thirty
 year old male.
 
 On the gripping hand, 携帯小説 isn't really relevant to migrating an
 office suite to a mobile device, except as pointer to what people have
 already done.

Exactly, and what is likely to happen is production of different form
factors as more clone manufacturers realise there are new markets
opening up for these technologies. I know at least one development
company producing a device that will plug into Wifi, large screen and
keyboard based on these technologies with a sub $50 target retail price.

With any new way of working, by definition, it is innovators and early
adopters that make it safe for the early and late majority to venture
into the water.

 Perhaps its only usefulness is in showing why LibO requires a Japanese
 UI on any mobile platform it is ported to.

Probably that too but first you have to decide the basic project is
worth doing and then find the resources to do it.

 jonathon


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[tdf-discuss] Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread thealmightyspace...@gmail.com
Forwarding, because my Desire has no idea what a reply-to address is :p

-Damien Ellis

(sent from my HTC Desire)

- Reply message -
From: thealmightyspace...@gmail.com thealmightyspace...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, Nov 5, 2010 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
To: Ian ian.ly...@theingots.org

I've written a thousand word essay (on digital convergence :) ) on my iPhone 
during a very long long long car trip, if that counts for anything. (also to 
prove a point to a teacher, about the very subject!).

The battery life of mobile devices is amazing compared to that of laptops and 
the like - if you give users the experience they are looking for (a decent word 
processor), then you already have the portability, battery life and nearly 
always on handiness of said mobile device working for you. And if Regular Joe 
McJoeson downloads LibreOffice for Android, and thinks oh hey, this is 
pretty cool, and say if there was a non intrusive LibreOffice: for Windows, 
Linux and Mac screen in the loading process, they would be more interested in 
the desktop product. Getting a presence on the mobile platform could really get 
LibO out there, as mobile apps have a much lower effort level to install. 
Press a button and its done, unlike the desktop app, which is rather large and 
daunting to someone who just bumped into it. 

Just my 2 sporebucks.  

-Damien Ellis

(sent from my HTC Desire)

- Reply message -
From: Ian ian.ly...@theingots.org
Date: Fri, Nov 5, 2010 6:32 am
Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org

On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:20 -0400, Steven Shelton wrote:
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 On 11/4/2010 3:31 PM, e-letter wrote:
  In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
  android) is more important than windoze.
 
 Really? Because I can't recall the last time I drafted a legal brief on
 my cell phone.

The legal profession is hardly a good precedent for technology
innovation :-)

Ask how many 15 year olds have drafted an essay on their cell phone.
That would be a much more realistic test of the future.

-- 
Ian
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www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
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[tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread e-letter
LO is never going to overcome m$ products on their own platform(s).
The biggest market potential by far is mobile devices for ODF to
become the default format.

The majority of people in the world are being introduced to technology
via mobile devices; banking, money transfer, product authentication
etc are now all being performed via mobile phones by people who have
never even seen a PC before caring if it is 32, 64, 16 bit machinery.
LO programmers should forget wasting their time pleasing windoze
people and focus on the future.

I would even go as far as qtiplot and makes windoze users pay for
versions supplied for their platforms.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Olivier Hallot

Em 04-11-2010 17:31, e-letter escreveu:

In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
android) is more important than windoze.



Wrong as of today. Windows counts of more than 95% of LO/OOo use. See 
download stats in OOo portal. Maybe in some future for mobiles.


Much has been written in this thread, I make my point:

Focus on what managers need(*). They need good spreadsheets and good 
presentations (Text document's are clerk's job).


On mobiles: care to start make a ODP (presentation) and spreadsheet 
(ODS) viewers. Just in case you realy don't want to carry your 
laptop/netbook, because HDMI output is becoming standard on mobiles.


(*) managers, sign checks and shout loud when things go wrong.
--
Olivier Hallot
Comitê Executivo
The Document Foundation

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Michel Gagnon

Le 2010-11-05 05:10, Ian a écrit :

On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 07:52 +, e-letter wrote:

LO is never going to overcome m$ products on their own platform(s).

Agreed, by the time there is any chance of this the world will have
moved to a different platform. In one way it already has since ARM based
mobile computer devices massively outnumber x86 now.


The biggest market potential by far is mobile devices for ODF to
become the default format.

Yup.



I don't agree totally with that statement. While Microsoft Works is 
likely to continue to be omnipresent, it is possible for LibreOffice to 
be a relatively important player on the Windows platform. For instance, 
Internet Explorer used to be the only browser on Windows computers; look 
at Firefox which is now a very important player, and Chrome which is 
making important inroads.


As for becoming useful on the phone, I think the cell-phone platform 
limits a lot the editing functions available. One possibility would be 
to have a no-frills word processor that would remember all image and 
style information, yet allow the cell-phone user to write the text as 
is. This means that a lot of thought and work has to be done before 
porting it on the phone, and that a good compatible software needs to 
exist on real computers. One of the strengths of LibreOffice is 
document compatibility and UI compatibility between platforms. Within 
limits, the same has to be extended to the newer platforms, otherwise 
people might as well compose in their e-mail software.


--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Charles Marcus
On 2010-11-05 10:59 AM, Michel Gagnon wrote:
 As for becoming useful on the phone, I think the cell-phone platform
 limits a lot the editing functions available. One possibility would be
 to have a no-frills word processor that would remember all image and
 style information, yet allow the cell-phone user to write the text as is.

This imo has the best chance of ever making it...

1. Create a simple viewer

2. Allow basic *content* editing, that perfectly preserves all else.

Still a huge job, but not so much as simply converting LibO to run on
mobile devices.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Simos Xenitellis
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.comwrote:

 On 2010-11-05 10:59 AM, Michel Gagnon wrote:
  As for becoming useful on the phone, I think the cell-phone platform
  limits a lot the editing functions available. One possibility would be
  to have a no-frills word processor that would remember all image and
  style information, yet allow the cell-phone user to write the text as is.

 This imo has the best chance of ever making it...

 1. Create a simple viewer

 2. Allow basic *content* editing, that perfectly preserves all else.

 Still a huge job, but not so much as simply converting LibO to run on
 mobile devices.


Per mailing list etiquette, it's better to start a new thread to discuss
mobile LibO.
This thread is about what needs to be done to get native Win64 LibO,
and how to find developers to join the effort.

Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Peter Rodwell

Quoting Simos Xenitellis:


Per mailing list etiquette, it's better to start a new thread to discuss
mobile LibO.
This thread is about what needs to be done to get native Win64 LibO,
and how to find developers to join the effort.


It has beceom a thread on mobile LibO by default. We've been told that it's more important to cram it into a mobile 
device than to do a 64-bit Windows version. Developers can therefore concentrate on how to get people to do spreadsheets 
on a cell phone and forget about Win64.


P.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-05 Thread Peter Rodwell

Quoting Simos Xenitellis:


Per mailing list etiquette, it's better to start a new thread to discuss
mobile LibO.
This thread is about what needs to be done to get native Win64 LibO,
and how to find developers to join the effort.


It has evolved into a thread on mobile LO by default. We've been told that it's more important to cram it into a mobile 
device than to do a 64-bit Windows version. Developers can therefore concentrate on how to get people to do spreadsheets 
on a cell phone and forget about Win64.


P.


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[tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread e-letter
In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
android) is more important than windoze.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread Steven Shelton
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On 11/4/2010 3:31 PM, e-letter wrote:
 In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
 android) is more important than windoze.

Really? Because I can't recall the last time I drafted a legal brief on
my cell phone.

- -- 
Steven Shelton
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread Peter Rodwell

Quoting e-letter:


In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
android) is more important than windoze.



That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower
priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell
phones. Bound to be a wild success.

P.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread T. J. Brumfield
In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
Windows is still by far the predominant market.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Peter Rodwell pe...@intorg.org wrote:

 Quoting e-letter:

 In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
 android) is more important than windoze.


 That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower
 priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell
 phones. Bound to be a wild success.

 P.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread Peter Rodwell

Quoting T. J. Brumfield:


In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
Windows is still by far the predominant market.


But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing,
spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for
heavy-duty work, after all.

I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions
when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless.
OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are
completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious
(nasty keyboards, small screens, etc).

P.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread T. J. Brumfield
I'm agreeing with you that Windows is the dominant market and should be
treated as such.

However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most accessible
and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be ignored.

I'd contend the priority should be on the primary platforms:

Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Peter Rodwell pe...@intorg.org wrote:

 Quoting T. J. Brumfield:

 In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
 Windows is still by far the predominant market.


 But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing,
 spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for
 heavy-duty work, after all.

 I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions
 when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless.
 OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are
 completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious
 (nasty keyboards, small screens, etc).


 P.


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I'm questioning my education
Rewind and what does it show?
Could be, the truth it becomes you
I'm a seed, wondering why it grows
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread Robert Derman

e-letter wrote:

In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
android) is more important than windoze.
  
How quickly things change in the world of electronics.  It wasn't that 
long ago, that phones were one thing, and computers quite another. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010-11-04 Thread Robert Derman

Robert Derman wrote:

Peter Rodwell wrote:

Quoting T. J. Brumfield:

However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most 
accessible
and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be 
ignored.


Agreed -- it certainly shouldn't be ignored, I just think that giving it
priority over Windows is ridiculous, is all.

 Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.

Exactly!
Oops!  I deleted the letter I was going to reply to which was on the 
UI thread, but this thread is almost as on topic to what I intended to 
say so I will stick it onto this one.First thing, the font 
selector has been where it is for so long, that I think it would be a 
serious mistake to mess with it.  From the very first WISIWIG word 
processors it has been at about that spot, and has worked about the 
way it does now.  My first Windows WP was not MS Word, or even Word 
Perfect, it was a program that few people today even remember, 
WordStar.People just expect some of the most basic things in a WP 
program to be where they have always been, and it is unwise to change 
them without a truly compelling reason.





I suspect that the actual typical user of OOo/LO is a home user, who 
uses it because they could not afford MS Word, or at least could not 
justify the cost of it for home use.  Most of the documents created 
with Writer are probably not screenplays, legal pleadings, or 
technical manuals, but rather have file names like, Xmas Newsletr 10, 
or Letr to Aunt Joan, or Garagesalesign.  The database is probably 
used most for things like keeping track of record or DVD collections, 
or membership lists for clubs or fraternal organizations.  Little kids 
use Draw for a coloring book.  Elementary  school kids use Writer for 
their school papers, ones that have to be turned in as hard copy.  If 
I had to guess, it would be that the single most common use for the 
spreadsheet is to do check registers for personal checking accounts.





I would also guess that many of the businesses that use OOo/LO do so 
because someone in management used the program at home and liked it.  
Power user features and capabilities certainly lead to corporate and 
government use of the suite, but basic ease of use for simple things 
is what gets people to try it in the first place.  





I could be wrong about this, but what I suspect, is that nothing else 
could promote the popularity of LO more than having a good users 
manual in the download package.  Despite the truth of the old saying 
When all else fails, read the manual.  A lot of users like to read a 
good manual to find out what else they could do with a program that 
they aren't doing now.  Also I would recommend formatting the manual 
for 8.5x11 rather than the usual 5x7 so that if the users want a hard 
copy it won't result in the usual horrible amount of paper waste that 
you get with 5x7 formats.  For example being able to get the whole 
thing onto 60 pages rather than needing 100.  Or perhaps format both 
ways, 5x7 for on screen, and 8.5x11 for printing.  Help functions are 
OK as far as it goes, but many times you need a hard copy so that you 
can read how to do a thing while actually doing it.





Many times I see the question, how can we be better than Microsoft, 
this is one place where this would be easy.  In recent years MS has 
declined badly in user support, especially in the area of user 
manuals.  They may do all right with the Fortune 500, but with small 
business, to say nothing of home users, frankly they suck!  They have 
also gotten sloppy with little details about how their software works, 
one thing I have noticed, Win 7 files incorrectly, files with numeral 
titles, as an example, the following files 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5  end up 
filed in the following order 6.5, 6, 7.5, 7  We all know that this is 
idiotic and WRONG!  My point is that it shouldn't be that hard to put 
out a product that people perceive as better than such junk.  Time for 
me to get off of my soapbox now.  Robert Derman


Either my email program, or something along the way really messed up the 
formatting of this email, running all the paragraphs together.  so I 
added several more C.R. between each paragraph and I will send it again 
and see if that fixes it.



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