Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-05 Thread drew
On Sat, 2011-01-01 at 10:52 -0800, Carl Symons wrote:
 On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot
 olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote:
 
 snip
 
 

 
 I clicked on the list of events link on
 http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
 for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
 Bellingham, 4/30  5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
 early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
 LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
 volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.
 
 If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
 you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
 for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.
 
Hi Carl

Sorry for a few days delay here - Indeed the event was added to the 
wiki and there is a potential volunteer for staffing a booth at the fest.

As Italo mentioned this has been discussed in the last couple of days
over on the US-Marketing list. Looking at what resources can be put
together for the booth.

If you can get a track together that would be great, or if you can help
in the booth or finding others to help in the booth, also wonderful. 

- I went ahead and sent this to your direct email feel free to contact
me direct, but it would be better to coordinate things on the list,
primarily. There are other US specific subjects that I would really like
to get peoples input on, so it would be really nice to see you join us
there.

Thanks much,

Drew



-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-04 Thread Johannes A. Bodwing

Hi Ian,

...


  And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.

I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle
works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not
meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.


Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute,


Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even
established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party
political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can
contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than
by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not
really much different from a FOSS project.


...

What you say about democracy, political parties eg is the today 
situation. But eventually think about this:
Democratic systems have the power and lot of money for secret 
cyber-tasks, for a hidden worldwide web of information and spy-systems 
and so on. They find it important, they give the money to do it and they 
have the will to do it. That's possible but not a better flow of 
information between citizens and politicians to create a more real 
democracy. There is no democratic-task, no worldwide-web of democratic 
informations. There is no will to involve more people in decisions or 
for the prefield of decisions.

What will I say with this?
Can we organize the structure of LO with examples in mind which have not 
the will for transparancy?

Or must there be a thinking like:
ESC has the final decision, OK.
And for that, what are the best conditions that they have the best 
informations to make the best decisions for the best (open) Office Suite?

Eventually this is one other task for the time after the phase of beginning.

Greetings,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-04 Thread Charles-H. Schulz
Johannes, all,

Le Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:34:42 +0100,
Johannes A. Bodwing jo...@arcor.de a écrit :

 Hi Ian,
  ...
 
And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.
  I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic
  principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for
  me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.
 
  Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute,
 
  Democracy simply means representation of the people (community).
  Even established democracies don't have referendums on every issue.
  Party political systems mean that there are real limits to what any
  individual can contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to
  new legislation other than by saying what I think and hope it will
  influence someone. That is not really much different from a FOSS
  project.
 
 ...
 
 What you say about democracy, political parties eg is the today 
 situation. But eventually think about this:
 Democratic systems have the power and lot of money for secret 
 cyber-tasks, for a hidden worldwide web of information and
 spy-systems and so on. They find it important, they give the money to
 do it and they have the will to do it. That's possible but not a
 better flow of information between citizens and politicians to create
 a more real democracy. There is no democratic-task, no
 worldwide-web of democratic informations. There is no will to involve
 more people in decisions or for the prefield of decisions.
 What will I say with this?
 Can we organize the structure of LO with examples in mind which have
 not the will for transparancy?
 Or must there be a thinking like:
 ESC has the final decision, OK.
 And for that, what are the best conditions that they have the best 
 informations to make the best decisions for the best (open) Office
 Suite? Eventually this is one other task for the time after the phase
 of beginning.
 
 Greetings,
 Johannes
 

I would like to close down that thread now. We have bylaws that people
were involved in and that have been stabilized:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/CommunityBylaws

And we have lots of things that need to be done and require volunteers.
Let me give you some pointers:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Produce
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing

Among other things.. Happy hacking!


-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Rick Stanley
I will not support or use LibreOffice until it stops helping spread
OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. There is absolutely no
need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the
principle of using ODF and open source formats.

LibreOffice needs to rise above this pettiness and support ALL major,
and many, if not most minor file formats!

Yes, I disagree with OOXML but realize that it is a file format that IS
being used throughout the world.  Refusing to write or read the format
brings us down to the level of Mickey$oft, or even worse!  

I support and encourage the Open Document Format, but if the Open Source
world is going to succeed, we need to demonstrate that WE ARE OPEN, and
allow our users to read and write to ANY format, even if we disagree
with the stupid petty mentality behind such formats such as OOXML.

If there is an obvious need for a feature, then by all means, it should
be allowed into LibreOffice!  I only use OpenOffice.org, and will use
LibreOffice when added to the Debian repository!

Rick Stanley


-- 
RSI (Rick Stanley, Inc.)
(917) 822-7771
www.rsiny.com
Computer Systems Consulting
Linux  Open Source Specialists




-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:


Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto?


http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html


And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.
I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle
works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not
meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.


Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, 
meritocracy means that contribution are judged by the community for 
their value, continuity, quality, etcetera. There are some principles 
though, and one of them is that contributions have to be constructive 
(FOR) and not destructive (AGAINST). Asking to avoid writing support for 
OOXML in order to bash Microsoft is meaningless.


Educating users about ethics related to Microsoft, OOXML and open 
standards is not a task for export filters.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Eduardo Moreno

El 30/12/10 11:27, Larry Gusaas escribió:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file 
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary 
format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open 
source formats.


See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I 
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to 
LibreOffice.



Thank's to LibreOffice. I can help to migrate and continue works with 
other people. Hurry to the liberty. hurry the free.


--
Mi Office genera: Seguridad, Confianza y Ahorro


J. Eduardo Moreno
TOKONHU de México
044 55 2748 4840


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Johannes A. Bodwing

Hi Italo,

On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:


Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto?


http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html



Thanks for the Link. - And I could ask the next questions, but I save it 
for later.
I try to get it clearer for me till the 3.3-Release, and eventually with 
a summary of the manifesto and other important things, to have lately:

a better basis to clear things in the calm after the release
eventually a shortform of the TDF-goals for people which come new to the 
project.


To check the frame for me, in what time about could the 3.3-Release start?

...

Thank You for your patience,
Johannes

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-03 Thread Ian Lynch
On 3 January 2011 15:14, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:

  Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto?


 http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html


  And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment.
 I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle
 works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not
 meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect.


 Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute,


Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even
established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party
political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can
contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than
by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not
really much different from a FOSS project.


 meritocracy means that contribution are judged by the community for their
 value, continuity, quality, etcetera.


Which is what voters do at election time with the records and manifestos of
politicians in a democracy. Of course meritocracy often become a political
argument - even with software.


 There are some principles though, and one of them is that contributions
 have to be constructive (FOR) and not destructive (AGAINST).


Compare with In the national interest


 Asking to avoid writing support for OOXML in order to bash Microsoft is
 meaningless.


Not meaningless but perhaps political rather than rational - but hey life is
a peculiar mixture of rational and political perspectives.


 Educating users about ethics related to Microsoft, OOXML and open standards
 is not a task for export filters.


In general I think this polarisation of meritocracy/democracy in FOSS is a
myth. FOSS happens because there is freedom of speech which is an
important tenant in any democracy. In the end some people make decisions and
if they get them badly wrong enough often enough the demos votes with its
feet. That is exactly what happened with OOo and LO. So while on this issue
I'm in favour of writing OOXML after hearing the arguments, these
discussions are important even though someone is going to be disappointed.
Let's just accept that rather than muddying the waters with the democracy
meritocracy myths.


 --
 Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
 E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
 Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***




-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQ

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread alan c

On 30/12/10 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary
 format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open
 source formats.

 See the following:
 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507

 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.



OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


However much I dislike the OOXML situation and also dislike the 
situation which exists of it being accepted by whatever means in ISO, 
it is a fact which exists. A distasteful one. This stage of the game 
was not won with our desired objectives, was it?


My objective is to do what I can to spread FLOSS and its use. There 
may be battles on the way, some battles will be lost some will be won. 
The objective is to win the war.


I am seeing a *lot* of interest from my friends and contacts in favour 
of FLOSS. However distasteful, the first or second question my friends 
always ask about FLOSS when considering to accept my help to convert 
(to say Ubuntu) is 'compatibility?'


I will use and support Libre O  as much as I possibly can, however I 
will resist the use of OOXML whenever I can, in situations of my own 
choosing, where I will not do damage to the cause of FLOSS.

--
alan cocks
Ubuntu user

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread leif
Dear Larry,
First of all I want to apologize for my lack of English skills. I'm not
native English speaking so if the words are a little clumpsy, please
bear with me :-)

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because LibreOffice is free software!

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.

2) No matter what we say or do, there are two document standards
approved by ISO. I guess (!) that most of us engaged in the Document
Foundation can agree that two standards are one two many. Never the
less: OOXML is a standard.

If we decide not to support it we will see status quo in marked
situation: MS having 95+ % of the marked share. MS will claim that they
support both standards and we are not in the loop able to claim otherwise.

If we support OOXML (I don't say that we should hurry) we will be able
to take marked shares from MS and more important: We are in the loop! We
can speak up and tell ISO what is wrong with OOXML. we will be able to
find all the faults and we will be heard. We can talk to politicians
about the core problems because we are implementing it.

I my self are doing that right now. I have spoken to politicians and the
are listening to me - because we are implementing it. Because we are
actually getting working with it.

I am living in a country that has chosen two standards. By working with
it we can help other regions not to make the same mistake. But if we say
we wil not this and we will not that our only achievement will be
that nobody will listen to what we are saying.

Supporting OOXML is not supporting MS. It is exposing their dirty laundry!

We don't need to hurry! Of cause we must economize our resources and
supporting OOXML will never become our main focus. We have an office
suite to create ;-)


Cheers,
Leif



Den 30-12-2010 18:27, Larry Gusaas skrev:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary
 format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open
 source formats.

 See the following:
 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507

 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.




-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Johannes A. Bodwing

Hi Leif,

Dear Larry,
...

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because !

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.


I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants 
to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.

Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

Greetings,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Andreas Mantke
Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:
 Hi Leif,
 
  Dear Larry,
  ...
  
  I disagree with you of two reasons:
  1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
  code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
  important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
  open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
  is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?
  
  Nobody. Because !
  
  We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
  fine for us.
 
 I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
 But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants
 to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.
 Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the 
members. 
The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing 
for LO 
and the TDF.

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which 
community 
(OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another 
mega-
thread on this list.

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Johannes A. Bodwing

Hi Andreas,

Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:

Hi Leif,


Dear Larry,
...

I disagree with you of two reasons:
1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the
code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very
important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as
open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what
is 'good' and what is 'bad' code?

Nobody. Because !

We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works
fine for us.

I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software.
But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants
to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community.
Why can than one group or one person decide about important things?

this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the 
members.
The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing 
for LO
and the TDF.

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which 
community
(OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another 
mega-
thread on this list.


That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I 
am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. 
And some is confusing.


In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about 
programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the 
ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. 
under the bylaws of TDF?
What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find 
that information?


The other point is:
TDF ... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ... 
(TDF-Homesite)
and on the Next Decade Manifesto: ... the home for our activities 
should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ...

How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it?

Thanks,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Andreas Mantke
Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:
 Hi Andreas,
 
  Hi Johannes, *,
(...)
  But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to
  which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily
  work. We need not another mega- thread on this list.
 
 That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I
 am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO.
 And some is confusing.
 

not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors.

 In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about
 programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the
 ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes.
 under the bylaws of TDF?
 What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
 that information?
 

Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not 
the time 
to repeat anything. I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and 
steal 
the time of other members of the community.

So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you 
can 
do for the community and contribute.

Regards,
Andreas
-- 
## Developer LibreOffice
## Freie Office-Suite für Linux, Mac, Windows
## http://LibreOffice.org
## Support the Document Foundation (http://documentfoundation.org)
## Meine Seite: http://www.amantke.de 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Johannes A. Bodwing

Hi Andreas,

... Hi Johannes, *,

Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing:

Hi Andreas,


Hi Johannes, *,

(...)

But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to
which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily
work. We need not another mega- thread on this list.

That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I
am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO.
And some is confusing.


not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors.


For me and many others from heaven.


In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about
programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the
ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes.
under the bylaws of TDF?
What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
that information?


Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not 
the time
to repeat anything.


But I have? How many hundreds of mails are this to find the right?
Sorry, that covers one of the problems. I've wrote it before: Some 
important information is not available in short time. The same as OOo ;-)



I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and steal
the time of other members of the community.


Thanks for the clearness ;-)
That means, you don't know it. Why don't you say that clearly, instead 
of such sideblows?



So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you 
can
do for the community and contribute.


I do what I can do in a situation with open important questions.
Look at my mails, I have not the time to repeat anything. Everything clear?

Greetings,
Johannes


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Jason Corfman
I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there
is one thing that that I don't understand.

Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.

Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats
as possible, but that is just me.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 1/2/11 9:36 PM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote:


What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find
that information?


Developers will base their decisions on several information, and also on 
positive contribution by the community. Emails where people say that 
LibreOffice should not support a document format because it is backed by 
Microsoft or because is a Go-OO heritage are not a positive contribution.


In addition, there is a group of long time community members who have a 
clear idea about the future of the office suite. We have also issued a 
press release where we have disclosed the development path that makes 
very clear LibreOffice future directions.


It should be very clear that software related requests coming from the 
community will be taken into consideration if they are positive and not 
against Microsoft or Oracle or any other corporation or entity. I think 
that this is quite a clear statement.



The other point is:
TDF ... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ...
(TDF-Homesite)
and on the Next Decade Manifesto: ... the home for our activities
should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ...
How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it?


Democratic and meritocratic are not opposite. TDF is a democracy based 
on merit, and merit is based on positive contributions. Shouting inside 
a mailing list is not a positive contribution, by any mean. TDF was not 
born to fight Microsoft, but to serve the user.


I think this is quite easy to understand, and I am really amazed by the 
number of people that still believe that promoting free software means 
bashing Microsoft. This shows a total lack of maturity.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Jaime R. Garza
As many already said, OOXML r/w support is already there,  if you don't like
it, then develop a way to disable it. Someone already developed it, and
that's why it is there already.

Why can anyone think that they can remove any functionality that is already
there?

It is a pain in th a... to do the OOXML r/w support, but someone already did
it!!!

Why in God's name would is so bad on having it if it's already there?

I believe that any extra functionality that some one develops and actually
works, should be added to OSS, any OSS, and nothing should be banned just
because some religious extremists don't want to have it.

What you are proposing is like banning support for Fat32 or NTFS from
Linux!! Do you understand how crazy that would be

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 1/2/11 11:07 PM, Jason Corfman wrote:


Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.


Because common sense is definitely not common.


Personally, I'd like to see LibreOffice read and write as many file formats
as possible, but that is just me.


No, it's me as well and many others who use common sense.

--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Carl Symons
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jason Corfman jkco...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've been reading through this discussion (as much as possible), and there
 is one thing that that I don't understand.

 Why do we have so many people complaining about LO writing in the .docx
 format but nobody (that I've seen) is complaining about the .doc format?
 Both are Microsoft formats, but the docx format is a lot closer to being an
 open standard. (Notice, I said it was closer, not that it was, an open
 standard). At least the docx format has some released specifications (as
 inaccurate as they may be), the last I checked, .doc doesn't even have that.

The docx format is a scam in my view (read some of the links in the
original message of this thread for background on that opinion). Until
MS complies fully with the open standards, the only value of docx is
to subvert truly open software. This is a pattern in MS' behavior over
time. I don't like that in the US, computer science in high school
consists of Word and Excel training. But that's the way it is.

That said, I trust in the open community environment of LibreOffice.
The comments and clarifications from Italo Vignoli, Olivier Hallot,
Charles-H. Schulz (apologies if I missed anyone) from The Document
Foundation demonstrate a willingness to listen and guide LibO
development in a reasoned fashion. Even though I don't appreciate the
steps Microsoft took to get their file format approved by the
standards body, the fact is that it is approved (I realize that there
are nuances to that.) The Document Foundation faces a difficult task
bringing an open office suite into being. I was overjoyed to hear
about LibreOffice. It is a bold, risky adventure. It faces major
challenges.

Consequently, I defer to TDF's sensibility about this situation; I'll
support whatever they decide on this issue. The final chapters on
docx/OOXML have not been written. Italo's statement of a philosophy of
FOR is exactly right IMHO.

The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner
and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source
software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF.

To The Document Foundation, thank you. Thank you for starting this
project, for listening, for creating LibO in a meritocracy.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-02 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 1/3/11 12:48 AM, Carl Symons wrote:


Italo's statement of a philosophy of FOR is exactly right IMHO.


Thanks, this philosophy is the guiding principle of our marketing 
strategy. In Italy (I apologize for mentioning often what we have done 
here) we have got to the point of issuing a press release to 
congratulate Microsoft for the support of ODF. It has been one of the 
most successful press releases, and it has been instrumental in making 
the project more credible in the market.


Today, Italian media consider Associazione PLIO the real Microsoft 
competitor. If there is a face to face between Microsoft and OOo, we are 
invited to talk and Sun/Oracle is completely ignored. We have been 
featured on the largest Italian dailies with dedicated articles.



The fact that this email thread exists, that it allows for all manner
and strength of opinion, is testimony to the strength of open source
software. It also illustrates a guiding principle of TDF.


Yes, although I would say that it has started in the wrong way, i.e. 
against Microsoft. The original idea was that we support Microsoft if we 
write OOXML, which is not only wrong but exactly the opposite of what 
happens in the reality.


Supporting OOXML makes LibreOffice stronger and TDF more credible, 
because we are not scared by interoperability (while Microsoft is and 
will always be scared by interoperability).


This is all I can say, and is already way too much for our beloved 
Microsoft lurkers.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Ian Lynch
On 31 December 2010 17:04, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

 Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14)

  On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

 FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
 format for opening and saving documents now.


 So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
 has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed
 this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


 (No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, so
 here I go ;-) )

 MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF.
 In the mean time ODF evolves.
 Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is very
 little chance that there will be changes in the specs.
 Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been based
 on MS-implementations of formulae.
 So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF versions
 already.
 For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support for
 close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format plus
 that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would be
 impractical not to implement them.


Considering the opportunity cost of developing export filters against other
development priorities is certainly a valid consideration. Of course if it
is work sponsored by someone who would not spend it on anything else that
means there is no effective opportunity cost.

Best,
 Cor

 --
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***




-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Carl Symons
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:30 AM, Olivier Hallot
olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

snip


 The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
 discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice
 is driven by Novell too?


 I wouldn't put in that simple words. Actually, LibreOffice is open to any
 developer, individual or company that whishes to contribute to our code and
 endeavour. On the TDF announcement we invited Oracle to join us and
 suggested them to offer the brand OpenOffice to TDF (later this was politely
 declined by Oracle).

 LibreOffice has many contributions of Novell engineers, as well as Oracle
 engineers too. But is is not an Novell product nor TDF is a Novell shop. The
 Next Decade Manifesto says a lot on our purpose and TDF is better described
 in this page:
 http://www.documentfoundation.org/

 Please help us not to make the same mistake as OpenOffice.org did.

 Kind regards
 --
 Olivier Hallot

Thank you, Olivier.

I clicked on the list of events link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30  5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.

If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.

Carl

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 01/01/2011 07:52 PM, Carl Symons wrote:


I clicked on the list of events link on
http://www.documentfoundation.org/. There are several events listed
for North America. Would TDF consider being at LinuxFest Northwest in
Bellingham, 4/30  5/1? There will be an official call for papers in
early January, but people can register at www.linuxfestnorthwest.org.
LFNW is a true open source expo, free admission, completely run by
volunteers...one of the longest running Fests in the US.


I think you should discuss this on the US Marketing list, who is copied 
on this answer.



If there are LibOers in the Pacific NW, please contact me off-list if
you'd like to help put together a LibreOffice track. We are looking
for presentations for people who are new to FOSS.


Please use the US Marketing list instead of private emails. We are 
trying to grow a US community and a marketing list is far better than 
any other tool.


--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread James Wilde

On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. 
 There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is 
 contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.
 
I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of 
information.  For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to 
be MS's open document format.  I just thought it was the latest update to MSO 
making everyone update to keep abreast.  So much for my knowledge of MSO.

As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it.  Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of 
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.  It's 
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James
-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Wolf Halton
Yes. Take a stand for inclusivity. :-)
On Jan 1, 2011 6:02 PM, James Wilde wilde.ja...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of
information. For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to
be MS's open document format. I just thought it was the latest update to MSO
making everyone update to keep abreast. So much for my knowledge of MSO.

 As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it. Read is right, write is wrong.

 Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.
It's a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

 //James
 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 1/1/2011 5:01 PM, James Wilde wrote:

On Dec 30, 2010, at 18:27 , Larry Gusaas wrote:


I will not support or use LibreOffice
until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file format. 
There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To do so is 
contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.


I've read a lot of points of view in this thread, and received a lot of 
information.  For example, I didn't know that the docx format was supposed to 
be MS's open document format.  I just thought it was the latest update to MSO 
making everyone update to keep abreast.  So much for my knowledge of MSO.


There was a huge battle over that; docx and its siblings are MS's Office Open XML (OOXML) formats, 
rushed through the ISO standards process with enormous still-existing problems. The standard was 
split into two parts -- the Transitional piece of the specification purports to document the 
implementation used since Office 2007, and the worst issues are in that part.



As regards Larry's comment, I endorse it.  Read is right, write is wrong.

Regarding the different pov's of posters about the advisability or not of 
writing docx, sometimes you've just got to take a stand, no matter what.  It's 
a case for the marketing guys, not the developers.

//James


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2011-01-01 Thread Matthew Copple
I disagree. LibreOffice isn't being developed as a political tool. It
is supposed to be useful in the modern office. Many of us have clients
and co-workers who use proprietary office formats, and we need to be
able to communicate with those folks. If I get an RFP in Office 10
format, I have to be able to read it and respond to it. If I have to
buy Office 10 to do it, then what reason have I to use LibreOffice (or
any free suite) in the first place?

Matthew Copple
mcop...@kcopensource.org

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:
 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


 --
 _


     Larry I. Gusaas

 *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan   Canada
 Website:   http://larry-gusaas.com
 An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
 theirs. - Edgard Varese *


 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***




-- 
Matthew G. Copple
mcop...@kcopensource.org

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Jonathan Aquilina
FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF 
format for opening and saving documents now.


On 12/31/10 1:12 AM, BRM wrote:

- Original Message 


From: Barbara Dupreyb...@onr.com
snip

We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is

quickly

becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means

in a

few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support

ODF

too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those

organizations,

and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time

before

OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing
files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon
discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF
implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I
think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard
implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically proprietary)
version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about
everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave
everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS,  which can then simply do
as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room.
Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS implementation,
making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly
pessimistic here?


True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it
is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it only
supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office
2003 and possibly earlier versions too.

However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the
normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through ISO
refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a
rather broken manner.

However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens
of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.

For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote
the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while
writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else
write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces.
Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I
think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be they
were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. Conversely,
I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be
easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.

Ben





--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 30/12/10 20:23, RGB ES wrote:

2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parkergbpli...@gmail.com:

OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
for a while, I think...

That's not the point. Many users of MS Office don't know how , or can't 
be bothered, to change the default document format from OOXML back to 
previous format, especially as Windows 7 (by default) does NOT show the 
file extension, so users don't even KNOW they are using OOXML. (I have 
personal experience of this from Users I support). Therefore the use 
of OOXML will spread insidiously as the take up of Office 2010 
(particularly) and Windows 7 speeds up. And I'm afraid there is nothing 
that can be done to stop this as MS Office almost completely dominates 
the Office suite world, particularly in corporate environments.
And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad 
manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like 
it's bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 30/12/10 21:07, Carl Symons wrote:


Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
their MS application.
Two comments on that. OOXML documents could contain more formatting 
options than the old style MS Office documents, which would be lost of 
you saved it in a prior format, and secondly, if someone sends you a 
document in a certain format, then it's arrogant of you to return it in 
a DIFFERENT format, however much you dislike the format the sender used.
That's why email clients reply to messages in the same format in which 
they were received.


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Sveinn í Felli

Þann fös 31.des 2010 01:28, skrifaði Wolf Halton:

I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
formatting these users do is adding a page number.
The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
set-up.

If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
don't care about these format battles.

If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
from the let's get them before they get us vibe in this thread is going to
work how we want.

Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
enough, or if we are the providers of those services.

Wolf Halton



Couple of things here:

I've been working on a fairly big Win/MSO -- LTSP-*buntu/OOo conversion 
in a 1500+ users school environment. So far it's been without major 
hiccups, you only have to repeat and tell each individual that OOo 
really CAN open .docx (provided one saves it first from the webmail 
client to the home directory or any other writable location) and that 
OOo CAN save the resulting file in .doc for further processing at home. 
This is primarily a 'computer literacy' problem and maybe setup of mail 
clients.
While you're at it one can also mention the ODF-plugin for their copy of 
MSO :-)


The main problem has been formulas in MSO-2007. Apparently there are two 
ways of entering formulas; one consists of using MSO Equation Editor 
which apparently renders/saves aproximately correct MathML. The other 
(default) way is direct insertion via MSO Equation, wihch is not even 
readable by MSO-2003 (only as a bitmap). If this could be adressed, many 
institutions/schools would have better time while changing sides.


Apparently some (rare) equations don't transpose correctly to Calc, and 
some exotic .ppt transforms don't translate correctly to Impress. But 
first of all are the macros which give problems. Probably there will 
never be a perfect automatic way for converting those, I see it rather 
as a business opportunity for VBA/macro gurus.


But I think that in a corporate context, a batch program for converting 
.doc and .docx to ODF would get some support and would/could ease the 
conversion. After all those years, there's a pile of .docs sitting on 
most PCs in this world. And having all the files in a same/similar 
format is an issue for many I've heard from.


Just thoughts.

Sveinn í Felli

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF 
format for opening and saving documents now.




So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents 
has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed 
this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file 
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary 
format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open 
source formats.


See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I 
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to 
LibreOffice.




The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and 
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.

And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES
2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com:
 And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...
As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of 
Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not 
OOXML


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES
Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not oracle's OOo.

2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com:
 On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:

 As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
 300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
 formats.
 Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
 support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
 3.4.

 Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of
 Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not
 OOXML

 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.

Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option 
of Office 2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's 
not OOXML


And it's the ORACLE version as well.

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote:

Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not oracle's OOo.




So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Ian Lynch
On 30 December 2010 20:19, Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:

 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


  OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format
 by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid



And if LibO does not support export to the latest versions of MS Office many
governments and businesses will be less likely to adopt it. Overall that
would be bad for odf. Once odf is in majority use yo can start dictating de
facto standards.


-- 
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
 discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***




-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications
The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79
8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread RGB ES
It says oracle (based on oracle to be precise) because most of the
code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not
hurt...

2010/12/31 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com:
 On 31/12/10 13:23, RGB ES wrote:

 Ubuntu's (and openSUSE's and sabayon's and...) OOo is go-oo, not
 oracle's OOo.



 So that's why it says ORACLE on the OO splash screen then

 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread sophie

Hi,
On 31/12/2010 16:27, RGB ES wrote:

It says oracle (based on oracle to be precise) because most of the
code is copyrighted by oracle. Please, google a bit, it does not
hurt...
Both of you are right. In fact, it's the official version plus some 
go-oo patches. So you get a mix of the two versions (that brings a lot 
of bugs unfortunately).


Kind regards
Sophie


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Italo Vignoli

Sorry for stepping in so late in the discussion.

I have seen many messages, but they all miss the key issue: 
interoperability.


TDF is FOR interoperability, which is a user (and a market) need.

TDF is not AGAINST Microsoft, although many of its founding members - 
including myself - have been strong opponents of OOXML during the 
standardization process.


We have worked inside committeees in order to improve OOXML, or - if you 
prefer - to make is a less flawed standard.


TDF is FOR ODF, and being FOR ODF in a strong way means that you do 
not support OOXML (but not to the point of creating problems to users 
wanting to save in a specific document format).


Of course, TDF is also a member of OpenDoc Society (announcement in 
early January) and is represented at the highest level inside OASIS. 
Inside these bodies, TDF will fight FOR making ODF a successful document 
standard over OOXML.


I would really like to handle the negative attitude to Oracle and the 
OOo community. If you share the idea of being AGAINST Microsoft, TDF and 
users, then we are happy if you choose the OOo community.


Happy 2011 to everyone. Ciao, Italo

--
Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation
E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813
Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Mark Preston
If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-

A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
same reasons.

When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.

It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
formats. It can either:-

1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.

The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
adopted by Libre Office.

The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.

The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest
that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
these formats.

We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
written documents and write them in the old doc format... while
telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work
involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
is the latter one.


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Cor Nouws

Hi Mark, all,

Mark Preston wrote (31-12-10 16:11)

If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-

A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
same reasons.

When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.

It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
formats. It can either:-

1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.

The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
adopted by Libre Office.

The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.

The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest
that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
these formats.

We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
written documents and write them in the old doc format... while
telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work
involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
is the latter one.


Thanks for the clear analyses.
And interesting discussion.

One thing I think that could be considered as well:
The choice seems to boil down to either:
 a- ignore saving in  OOXML, because supporting that would support the 
 non-open, MS dominated file format; or
 b- support saving in OOXML, because this enables users of LibreOffice 
to better cooperate with (part of the) people/organizations using MsO.


For the people that choose based on certain principles, a. seems the best.
For people that have to/want to work in a practical way, b. might be 
better, provided that the save-as-OOXML reaches a level where it is of 
practical use. If that is not the case, it is not more then window 
dressing that will leave users with a bad experience and again people 
pointing at the other application (LibO in this case) that does not 
support the file format properly.
Another side note: efforts spent to develop save-as-OOXML might have 
possible side effects for the save-as-DOC, I guess, since OOXML is 
partly based on the old binary format.


Indeed, not a clear a or b, but just some components for the frame to 
help making the choice.


How does that sound?

Best,
Cor


--
 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Cor Nouws

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote (31-12-10 13:14)

On 31/12/10 09:30, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:

FYI for those that aren't aware. Microsoft office 2010 supports ODF
format for opening and saving documents now.



So does 2007 SP2 as well. However in 2007 the opening of ods documents
has deliberately broken formulaedon't know whether they've fixed
this in 2010, or whether they even want to fix it...


(No idea if someone already answered this somewhere else in this thread, 
so here I go ;-) )


MS sticks (anyway up until now) with the ISO-certified version of ODF.
In the mean time ODF evolves.
Formulae support is close to final, and for months already, there is 
very little chance that there will be changes in the specs.
Even more: the formulae definitions in ODF have to a high level been 
based on MS-implementations of formulae.
So MS could have made a choice to to implement close to final ODF 
versions already.
For OOo and others, it is completely logic and natural to offer support 
for close-to-final ODF specifications already. ODF is the native format 
plus that the open source suites develop so much faster, that it would 
be impractical not to implement them.


Best,
Cor

--
 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Wolf Halton
@rgb.mldc-  if your request for a document included a format type, you might
even include a link to LO as well. My copy of OO.o opens docx, so I can't
say docx is unreadable.  Everything I run is tweaked a little, so I am not a
standard use case.
There was a long thread on one of the Linux lists to which I subscribe of
the poor taste of hr recruiters who ask for.doc versions of an applicant's
resume on a linux-focused job board. Do you think an applicant would be
considered if they sent an odf instead?

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Carl Symons
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

 And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad
 manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's
 bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML


How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If
that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Paul Gress

On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:


The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and request that 
they send it in another format, explaining why.
And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...



As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4 (m95) and 3.3 OOo 
rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx.


Paul

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Carl Symons
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Mark Preston m...@mpreston.demon.co.uk wrote:
 If I may inject what I hope is a little sense into this argument:-


Thank you for injecting sense into what had become entirely emotional
and irrational B^)


 A major strength of Open Office is and always was that it could read
 and often write documents in many proprietary formats. That strength
 should remain solidly a feature of Libre Office and for exactly the
 same reasons.

 When it comes to the Microsoft formats there is a significant issue
 with writing the formats - specifically, that even Microsoft cannot
 fully adhere to the standards they set. This is a major fault and it
 is one which Microsoft has placed into the marketplace.

 It leaves Libre Office with three choices when it comes to these
 formats. It can either:-

 1. Write in the format as used by Microsoft.
 2. Write in the format as specified in the ISO standard.
 3. Refuse to write in the new formats at all.

 The problem with option 1 is that it is a strictly proprietary form
 which even Microsoft admits does not actually meet the open standard.
 It is therefore open to attacks using patent and other legislation if
 adopted by Libre Office.

 The problem with option 2 is that while it is an open standard it does
 not actually fully work with Microsoft Office and is therefore a
 pointless choice until (according to Microsoft) at least 2014.

 The problem with option 3 is that Libre Office would be left in the
 situation where its own files would need to be read by the ODF open
 feature in Microsoft Office, thus making Microsoft appear to be the
 ones making efforts to read incompatible formats. I would suggest
 that this is the very reason why Microsoft has taken this action with
 these formats.

 We are left, in short, with just two realistic choices. Either we
 reverse-engineer the OOXML as actually used and let Microsoft scream
 about it (as they certainly would) or we simply ignore the format for
 written documents and write them in the old doc format... while
 telling people clearly on the download website that this is because we
 are prevented from using the Microsoft open standard. Given the work
 involved in these choices, I would suggest the only realistic option
 is the latter one.


Sincere thank you for a well-reasoned and clear analysis. Better minds
than mine can decide whether or not it's complete.

The idea of requesting a document in a readable format is also useful.
Thanks to whoever in this monster thread suggested that. For the most
part, I'm exchanging documents with acquaintances (so much for trying
this trick with a recruiter who wants Word). Talking with them about
file formats is simple.

There's another dynamic at play here. Microsoft is facing a situation
where markets with big potential are choosing open source. They have
discounted MS products to near nothing to gain footholds in some of
these markets. BRIC markets (as described by IMF and The Economist)
are seen as up-and-coming. These countries--Brazil, Russia, India,
China--are making or have already made commitments to open source.
This is not good news for Microsoft. These countries represent serious
market potential.

If LibreOffice and other open source projects continue to operate as
welcoming communities with other interests than profits and growth,
then they will prosper. Some underlying principles support open source
software. These principles should inform the way that this issue and
others are resolved. Microsoft is obligated to do whatever it can to
maximize return on investments. LibO and most other true open source
projects also have stakeholders--us--who seek a different kind of
return. I want quality software with a community of users who
cooperate, where I can contribute and appreciate the contributions of
others.

Thanks again, Mark. Your message has the kind of clear thinking that I
appreciate in the open source community.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown

On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:


The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and 
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.

And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...



As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4 
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx.



Paul



They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo 
does not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in 
the original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Carl Symons
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:
 On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

 On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

 The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
 If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
 request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
 And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...


 As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx.


 Paul


 They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
 not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
 original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.



Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Craig A. Eddy
There are many times in which HTML doesn't translate correctly to a
recipient.  The lowest common denominator, then, is plain text.  That
being the case I habitually set my email reader to send in plain text.

Also, for one who uses gpg (or it's equivalent), even occasionally, the
encrypting and/or signing program automatically converts to plain text.

It isn't arrogance.  It's the need to meet the needs of the greatest
number of people.

On 12/31/2010 11:31 AM, Carl Symons wrote:
 On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
 gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 snip
 
 And if you are sent an OOXML document to edit and return then it's bad
 manners not to send it back in the format it was sent to you, just like it's
 bad manners to receive a plain text email and reply in HTML

 
 How about if I receive an HTML email and reply in plain text? If
 that's a faux pas, I've been a very bad boy.
 

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown

On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:

On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML format...


As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
(m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx.


Paul


They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.




Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links. 
 Very eye opening.


Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Paul Gress

On 12/31/10 08:23 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:21, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

On 31/12/10 13:17, RGB ES wrote:


As someone already said, that's absolutely wrong: I have 3.3rc8 and
300m95 running here and none of them support writing to whateverX
formats.
Maybe you are using some go-oo derivative, but oracle's OOo do not
support writing to those formats, not even the development version for
3.4.


Well, Open Office 3.2.1 running on Ubuntu 10.04 has a Save-As option of Office 
2007 xml (docx). So i don't know what THAT is then, if it's not OOXML


And it's the ORACLE version as well.



I just installed OOo 3.2.1 in my Windows VBox and it didn't have a save as docx.  When you 
select Help  About Openoffice.org what version does it display?

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Carl Symons
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:
 On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:17:28 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net
 wrote:

 On Fri Dec 31 2010 10:53:16 GMT-0800 (PST)  Paul Gress wrote:

 On 12/31/10 07:50 AM, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

 The answer to ALL this nonsense is surely this.
 If you receive an OOXML document, politely reply to the sender and
 request that they send it in another format, explaining why.
 And BTW, the latest Open Office ALSO supports writing to OOXML
 format...

 As I've stated previously, what version?  I have installed OOo dev 3.4
 (m95) and 3.3 OOo rc8 (m18) and I can't save as a docx.


 Paul

 They are using the Go-oo version so that explains it.  Plain old OOo does
 not have the docx save as docx ability.  If one reads the links in the
 original post they will find out why.  Hint: Novell is in bed with M$.



 Does this mean that Go-oo is driven by Novell? The contact on
 go-oo.org/about has a novell.com email address.


 Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
  Very eye opening.

 Andy


You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Andy Brown

On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:



Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
 Very eye opening.

Andy



You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice
is driven by Novell too?



What do you think?

Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Carl Symons
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote:
 On Fri Dec 31 2010 11:45:46 GMT-0800 (PST)  Carl Symons wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Andy Brown a...@the-martin-byrd.net
 wrote:

 Yep.  Go back to the first message in this thread and follow the links.
  Very eye opening.

 Andy


 You're right, some interesting reading there and on the links.

 The Go-oo homepage also says Going forward, the Go-oo project will be
 discontinued in favor of LibreOffice. Does that mean that LibreOffice
 is driven by Novell too?


 What do you think?

 Andy


Good question...especially as thinking sometimes gets me in trouble.

Not being privy to the Novell sale goings-on, I don't know how the
Novell/Microsoft arrangement unfolded, how much or what of the
agreements (reported on the Groklaw link, first post) between MS and
Novell are still in place, or who would be bound by them.

Based on what I've read and the actions of people associated with The
Document Foundation, I think that they are operating from true open
source principles. Further, I think that the structures put in place
around LibreOffice support an open source community.

So, pretty much not knowing what I'm talking about, I think that
LibreOffice is a valuable project worth using, supporting, caring
about. I appreciate that the LO founders jumped off into the unknown
with it.

Carl

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Carl Symons
I support Larry's position.

Carl Symons

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:
 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


 --
 _


     Larry I. Gusaas


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Gordon Burgess-Parker

On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file 
format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary 
format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open 
source formats.


See the following:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507 


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I 
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to 
LibreOffice.



OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format 
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread RGB ES
openxml is a really bad thing for the community. It was a shame its
approval by iso, specially if we consider there was no working
implementation of it (not even msoffice support that standard!!) By
implementing this format on LibO we are not helping to improve the
(absurd myth of) interoperativity: we are only helping M$ to have an
excuse (the only possible one: an independent implementation!) for the
existence of those formats.
To load those formats is OK if the file will be converted to ODF. To
load those files in order save again on that absurd standard is a
really wrong move.
There is one thing that it is now more important than an opensource
office suite, and that thing is a really open standard about file
formats. We must protect ODF! Giving life support to ooxml is exactly
on the opposite direction of that goal.
Just my 2¢

2010/12/30 Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com:
 I support Larry's position.

 Carl Symons

 On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:
 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


 --
 _


     Larry I. Gusaas


 --
 Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
 Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
 *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread RGB ES
2010/12/30 Gordon Burgess-Parker gbpli...@gmail.com:
 OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
 default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


That means nothing. MSOffice will be able to read the previous formats
for a while, I think...

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Steven Shelton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
 
On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
 file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
 proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
 ODF and open source formats.

On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
wrongs make a right? I thought the idea behind this particular office
suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
to buy MS products.

- -- 
Steven Shelton
Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
 
iEYEARECAAYFAk0c6CIACgkQO+AD2HqgRoAFmACeJfN63kpY0scYYf4nh9HI6M3d
m18AoMuiy7TqhzLg8pxuMEch0eDp2nKD
=Lj+L
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Carl Symons
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:

 I will not support or use LibreOffice
  until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this file
 format. There is absolutely no need to write in this proprietary format. To
 do so is contrary to the principle of using ODF and open source formats.

 See the following:

 http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507
 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

 Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups I
 participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
 LibreOffice.


 OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
 default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid


MS may create documents in OOXML by default. LibO can read them too.

Larry Gusaas' original point was to avoid helping MS with this
anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS ...spread OOXML by enabling
writing in this file format... In other words, make it so that LibO
can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this format.
Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not their
fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake file
format is to damage open software applications.

It is similar to what they did with web standards, their own special
Java, their own special C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
accepted as an ISO open standard. Truly open applications shouldn't go
along with this scam. MS has suffered very little for their bad
behavior.

Even MS Office users (prior to 2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.

Read the links in Larry Gusaas' original message in this thread. This
is what the open community is up against. We don't have to go along
with it.

By the way, there is nothing inherently wrong with what MS is doing
here. The U.S. system rewards corporations that flirt with the
boundaries of legality. The Standards Committee went along with this,
and the U.S. hapless regulatory system can't/won't come to the rescue.
It is up to the open community to deal with it. Don't make it possible
for an open application to write in a file format that seeks to damage
it.

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Carl Symons
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Steven Shelton
ste...@sheltonlegal.net wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 12/30/2010 12:27 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 I will not support or use LibreOffice
 until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling writing in this
 file format. There is absolutely no need to write in this
 proprietary format. To do so is contrary to the principle of using
 ODF and open source formats.

 On the other hand . . . isn't that doing exactly what MS does? Do two
 wrongs make a right?

No that is not what MS does. MS reads  writes in proprietary formats.
They do not support open source formats. LibO should read any format
and have the ability to write in proprietary formats. It should not
write in proprietary formats masquerading as open formats. LibO should
not go along with MS' chicanery. LibO is not engaging in deceptive
practices.

I thought the idea behind this particular office
 suite was to make any file accessible to the extent possible. That's
 why I use it. Regardless of what LibO does, MS is going to continue to
 use OOXML, and if the open source suites don't support it, then they
 are shooting themselves in the foot and essentially doing MS's bidding
 by ensuring that people who want to exchange files in that format have
 to buy MS products.

 - --
 Steven Shelton

Any file format would still be accessible to read. If someone sends
you a docx file, you will be able to open it. You can send a .doc (no
x; no OOXML) file back to to them; they will be able to read it with
their MS application. By sending a .docx file, the only thing
accomplished is that MS has weakened open source.

People can still exchange files in MS formats. The other user will
still be able to use their MS applications. Not allowing docx _write_
ensures that MS nefarious scheme has been weakened. Other than that,
no effect.

If the LibO community doesn't take a stand on this issue, who else
will? Simply put, MS is doing false advertising. Do you think that the
FTC is gonna do anything about it? Not a prayer. MS has their cover
with the Standards Committee decision. And how likely is it that some
U.S. CongressCritter would allow the FTC to take action anyway?

Carl Symons

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM
- Original Message 

 From: Carl Symons carlsym...@gmail.com
 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
 Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 3:47:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
 
 On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gordon Burgess-Parker
 gbpli...@gmail.com wrote:
  On  30/12/10 17:27, Larry Gusaas wrote:
 
  I will not support  or use LibreOffice
   until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
  format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format. 
To
  do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
 
  See the  following:
 
   
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507

  http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
 
  ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
  participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
   LibreOffice.
 
 
  OOXML will spread anyway because MS  Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by
  default. Nothing you can do  about it I'm afraid
 
 
 MS may create documents in OOXML by  default. LibO can read them too.
 
 Larry Gusaas' original point was to  avoid helping MS with this
 anti-open scheme. LibO should not help MS  ...spread OOXML by enabling
 writing in this file format... In other words,  make it so that LibO
 can _read_ OOXML documents, but not _write/save as_ this  format.
 Enable LibO to _write_ in MS' proprietary .doc format, but not  their
 fake open format. It is not open. The intent of this fake  file
 format is to damage open software applications.

Agree. LibO should only read OOXML if anything at all.
 
 It is similar to  what they did with web standards, their own special
 Java, their own special  C++. MS bribed their way into getting OOXML
 accepted as an ISO open standard.  Truly open applications shouldn't go
 along with this scam. MS has suffered  very little for their bad
 behavior.
 
 Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had trouble with this docx fraud.
 

Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone supporting 
ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other 
formats - as third party as possible.
In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save 
support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS 
format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly 
becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a 
few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF 
too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations, 
and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before 
OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so 
many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as 
to why.

Ben

P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by  
default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational 
standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM
- Original Message 

 From: BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com
  
  Even MS Office users (prior to  2007) have had  trouble with this docx 
fraud.
  
 
 Perhaps LibO and all other Open  Source projects - and perhaps anyone 
supporting 

 ODF for that matter - should  treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other 
 formats - as third party as  possible.
 In other words, read support should be something that users must  enable; 
 Save 

 support should not be possible - it must be converted to either  an older MS 
 format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
 We need to force MS to support  ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is 
 quickly 

 becoming the world standard  at least at the government level - which means 
 in 
a 

 few years most  organizations that support governments will need to support 
 ODF 

 too, and a  few years after that organizations that support those 
organizations, 

 and so  forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
before 

 OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
 
 The idea of  LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so 
 many other  formats to get people to convert to their formats.
 After all, what's good for  the goose is good for the gander, no?
 
 Of course, all functionality should  be dually advertised - with explanations 
as 

 to why.
 

Oh, and one other point - why risk the legal liability?
Even ISO OOXML is burdened by licensing issues; but then again - MS continues 
to 
not support ISO OOXML and instead use their own 'enhanced' version which 
probably has far more legal liabilities than ISO OOXML.

And while MS Office has moved on to newer versions of OOXML, ISO OOXML has not 
been updated - I'm not even sure Alex Brown pays attention to it any more as he 
seems to just be nit-picking ODF at the moment (see his posts on the ODF Office 
Comments list).

$0.02 USD

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Barbara Duprey

On 12/30/2010 4:14 PM, BRM wrote:

- Original Message 

snip

We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in a
few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
too, and a few years after that organizations that support those organizations,
and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time before
OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.


Unfortunately, MS now claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing files with the ODF 
extensions. But users attempting interoperability will soon discover that the MS implementation is 
not really compatible with other ODF implementations (most notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not 
just that). I think the MS plan here is to say that *they've* got the true standard implementation 
and everybody else is wrong. Since that (basically proprietary) version of ODF is now distributed as 
part of MS Office, it's just about everywhere, so they have the numbers on their side. That seems to 
leave everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS, which can then simply do as it pleases 
with the standard, being the 600-pound gorilla in the room. Interoperability issues will than be 
charged against the non-MS implementation, making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I 
being unduly pessimistic here?



The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations as
to why.

Ben

P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.


It looks as if the general opinion here is that reading OOXML is a good idea, and writing it is not. 
I agree.


--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread BRM
- Original Message 

 From: Barbara Duprey b...@onr.com
 snip
  We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have  pointed out ODF is 
quickly
  becoming the world standard at least at the  government level - which means 
in a
  few years most organizations that  support governments will need to support 
ODF
  too, and a few years after  that organizations that support those 
organizations,
  and so forth. MS  has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
before
  OOXML  (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.
 
 Unfortunately, MS now  claims that it *does* support ODF, reading and writing 
files with the ODF  extensions. But users attempting interoperability will 
soon 
discover that the MS  implementation is not really compatible with other ODF 
implementations (most  notably in spreadsheet formulas, but not just that). I 
think the MS plan here is  to say that *they've* got the true standard 
implementation and everybody else is  wrong. Since that (basically 
proprietary) 
version of ODF is now distributed as  part of MS Office, it's just about 
everywhere, so they have the numbers on their  side. That seems to leave 
everybody else once again playing catch-up with MS,  which can then simply 
do 
as it pleases with the standard, being the 600-pound  gorilla in the room. 
Interoperability issues will than be charged against the  non-MS 
implementation, 
making it safer for organizations to stay with MS. Am I  being unduly 
pessimistic here?
 

True, they do have a plug-in available to support ODF, but (last I checked) it 
is not part of the default install - you must install it separately, and it 
only 
supports Office 2007 and later, while they pushed OOXML support out to Office 
2003 and possibly earlier versions too.

However, they do not (again at least last I checked) let you save it via the 
normal means, e.g. Save/Save As dialog, and you cannot make it the default.
They also follow only the 1.0 or may be the 1.1 version that made it through 
ISO 
refusing to do anything that is not in the ISO version, and then doing it in a 
rather broken manner.

However, they are not the 600-pound gorilla in the ODF market given the dozens 
of implementations that more or less agree on how most things should be done.

For instance, unlike all other implementations (again last I checked) MS wrote 
the value of the cell to the normal location for an ODS spreadsheet while 
writing the formula to a MS Office specific namespace - whereas everyone else 
write the formula to the cell location and not application specific namespaces. 
Effectively making MS Office ODF files non-interoperable with everyone else. I 
think they may also drop all other application specific data too; or may be 
they 
were kind enough to leave that intact, don't remember on that front. 
Conversely, 
I think there is likely enough interoperable software out there that it can be 
easily pointed out that MS has the broken implementation in such cases.

Ben


-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***



Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Andy Brown

On Thu Dec 30 2010 12:19:55 GMT-0800 (PST)  Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format 
by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid




If M$ were to use the proper standard then I would have no problem with 
the OOXML usage.  The problem comes in when M$ uses their version 
instead of the standard, (see 
http://www.adjb.net/post/Microsoft-Fails-the-Standards-Test.aspx ). 
Reading the OPs links and following links from the different post leads 
to far more interesting reading.  It is funny that the Sun plugin for 
MSO had better support for ODF than the built-in support from M$.  M$ 
has no interest in any open format standard so they do everything, 
including sabotage to do away with them.


My 2cents.

Andy

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Carl Symons
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:14 PM, BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com wrote:
several thread entries truncated

 
  I will not support  or use LibreOffice
   until it stops helping spread OOXML by enabling  writing in this file
  format. There is absolutely no need to write in  this proprietary format.
 To
  do so is contrary to the principle of  using ODF and open source formats.
 
  See the  following:
 
 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507

  http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828
 
  ; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
  participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
   LibreOffice.

One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.


 Perhaps LibO and all other Open Source projects - and perhaps anyone 
 supporting
 ODF for that matter - should treat OOXML like Microsoft treats ODF and other
 formats - as third party as possible.
 In other words, read support should be something that users must enable; Save
 support should not be possible - it must be converted to either an older MS
 format (e.g. doc, xls) or ODF.
 We need to force MS to support ODF - as others have pointed out ODF is quickly
 becoming the world standard at least at the government level - which means in 
 a
 few years most organizations that support governments will need to support ODF
 too, and a few years after that organizations that support those 
 organizations,
 and so forth. MS has lost the file format battle to ODF - it's just time 
 before
 OOXML (especially) and their legacy formats are gone.

As another writer has pointed out, forcing MS in these ways is
self-defeating. MS is not going to be forced in any direction. MS
managers are going to fulfill their legal obligation...make money,
enrich investors. LibO  TDF do not have this requirement. Attempts to
make things difficult for MS will really only make things difficult
for those people who are required to use MS products. Many of those
users don't have a choice. It is not appropriate to bruise users in
order to teach MS a lesson...a lesson that they probably won't learn
anyway.

A key point here needs amplification. As a USA citizen (even in
Washington State, up the road from Redmond) and an open source
community participant, my view is probably warped...I think that MS
has gone over the line of propriety many times with almost no adverse
consequence. They operate as a de facto monopoly. The US regulatory
agencies have done little to curb this anti-social behavior. To people
who live in another countries, I can only imagine how this behavior
appears. Surveys and anecdotes indicate that computer users in other
countries than the USA report software to be a sovereignty issue. LibO
has an international scope. Governments (Russia recently for example)
are moving to LibO and other open source applications to remove
themselves from the MS hegemony.

Reading a range of formats and offering the ability to save in a range
of formats is generous and supportive of the little person user. Going
along with MS' efforts to destroy the open document format does not,
in the end, support the little person user. MS has a near monopoly;
they use it to the greatest extent possible. The ultimate result of
unethical monopoly behavior is that the monopolist's products drive
other products out. There is no valid reason for aiding MS' efforts to
damage open source.



 The idea of LibO/etc reading OOXML pushes the issue - just like MS did to so
 many other formats to get people to convert to their formats.
 After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?


No, just because MS does it doesn't make it right. They are using
their market power unfairly. If LibreOffice focuses on serving users
generously, then _reading_ OOXML documents fits. Writing or saving as
OOXML only damages open source applications; there is no benefit to
users (as long as documents can be saved in a legitimate way). OOXML
is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 Of course, all functionality should be dually advertised - with explanations 
 as
 to why.

 Ben

 P.S. I am not advocating vengeance - just equal and fair play.
 P.P.S BTW, Office 2007 and later often get set to use the legacy formats by
 default as many organizations don't use OOXML if they have an  organizational
 standard. It's only those that don't that continue using  the defaults.


When somebody buys a new version of Office, their default save format
is docx. I've worked with less sophisticated users who get a new
computer and new Office to work from home. They can't understand why
their teachers (running earlier Office versions) can't open their
file. This is a bad deal that MS has foisted on people.

It is not necessary to make them pay for this bad behavior...it
wouldn't make much difference. But we shouldn't be accomplices to
their crime.

Carl

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org

Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Wolf Halton
I have to use office2007 at work and I watch hundreds of core users (college
students) struggle with my formatting requirements for homework assignments.
Most of these are using the company-supplied computers, with office 2007,
most of the time.  Word allows reading and writing odf format. It tends to
mess up fancy document formatting, but the most complicated document
formatting these users do is adding a page number.
The IT department set it up, so I don't know if the Plugin took manual
set-up.

If we could set up docx to save automatically to doc, that might be cool for
us but don't you think that would just annoy core users of ms office? Most
core users of any program just want to use it to perform some task. They
don't care about these format battles.

If we could make a couple of award-winning big-budget movies where format
license was the pivotal plot device, we might have hope of including the
core user in the controversy. I am not sure that deliberate exclusion coming
from the let's get them before they get us vibe in this thread is going to
work how we want.

Once all European governments and half of Aisia go to open formats, maybe we
just stop accepting ms formats at all.  This is how ms office got their
crushing grip on general business formatting, isn't it. Before Windows, the
average university or (US) government core user was using WordPerfect on
DOS. Over the next 5-10 years we will probably see a sea-change to *nix,
cloud and open formats, but the focus of LO may have to shift to a SaaS
delivery model to meet the challenges of that change.  If the documents are
shared primarily over the network through a browser, it will be very simple
for those service providers to specify odf if we make the reasons clear
enough, or if we are the providers of those services.

Wolf Halton

-- 
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***


Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-30 Thread Paul Gress

On 12/30/10 08:09 PM, Carl Symons wrote:




http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49t=2493p=169740#p169507


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101219121621828

; Unless this changes I will strongly advocate in the support groups  I
participate the people stay with OpenOffice.org and not switch to
  LibreOffice.

One minor point here...OOo also supports writing to docx format.



I checked my OOo, dev m95 (3.4), it doesn't support save as docx and 3.3 rc8 (3.3 m18) 
also doesn't support docx in save as.  What version are you using that supports docx?



Also, for what it's worth, saving as a docx to me is a bad idea.  I've imported 
doc files extensively in the past, straightened them out to view properly, 
saved as an odt, then saved as a doc again only to find some different 
formatting doesn't come out correctly with the doc.  I suspect docx will be 
worse.  I have got many people in the past to convert to OOo.  I will now 
promote them to Libreoffice.  I cannot move over myself as I use Solaris 11 
Express (similar to Opensolaris) which there is no port.

--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
*** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***