Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/14/2016 9:51 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> My "Fix it" comment was aimed at LibreOffice in general, not to you 
> specifically.

Oh, so you prefer to issue 'general purpose' commands and edicts rather
than ones aimed at spoecific people. How very thoughtful.

> You are one of the people who understands the issue.

Unlike yourself, who refuses to acknowledge where the bug really lies
(Oracle/Java combined with a broken JRE package provided by Apple).

Apple worshippers are the worst kind of fanatic.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/11/2016 6:22 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> On 2016-03-11, 4:11 PM Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
>>> No. It is a LibreOffice bug. You broke the usability of LibreOffice
>>> on Macs with your code change.

>> *I* broke it? Sorry Larry I'm just a user like you.

> It's obvious that "you" on a product mailing list refers to the LibreOffice 
> developers.Quit 
> being pedantic.

Actually, why don't you stop acting like a spoiled child?

>> Libreoffice *fixed* a bug that brought to light a Mac bug.

> No. LibreOffice broke it's usability on OS X. If it makes a product for OS X 
> it should work for 
> OS X as it currently exists.

And every time a new bug crops up in OSX, it is on every other software
developer to work around their bugs?

> It did not bring to light a Mac bug. The requirement for the older 
> Apple developed version of Java to be installed has been known for
> several years and is mentioned in the installation notes.

And it is a BUG - or rather, a very poor Apple workaround for a long
standing (meaning may likely never get fixed so deal with it) Java bug.

But my understanding is that Apple *could* fix it, they just chose the
easiest way, probably because they don't give a crap about Java (just
like they ditched Flash support a very long time ago).

> By the way, the bug is in Java. The installation of the old Apple 
> Java is the long-known workaround. The current version broke that
> functionality.

Correct - so complain to Apple about their crappy workaround, complain
to Oracle to fix the JRE, or stfu and just implement the new workaround
to install the JDK.

> Yeah. Mac users will deal with it. They'll quit using LibreOffice.

No, most will just install the JDK and move on.

>> The Libreoffice devs finally decided to make a change to their code that
>> stops 'working around' Apple's long standing bug (at least thats how I
>> read the comments)...
> 
> Actually, it's a bug in Java.

I actually knew it was a Java bug, but it is apparently very long
standing, which means it may never get fixed. The bug I was referring to
above was Apple's BUGGY (lazy) workaround.

> You obviously didn't do a lot of research.

This is the first time I've seen *you* say it was a Java bug - which
begs the question, if you knew it was a Java bug, why are you
complaining here? So now it is Libreoffice's responsibility to not only
fix Apple bugs (lazy/crappy workarounds) but to fix Oracle JRE bugs as well?

>> There is a simple workaround that *you* can employ - install the JDK -
>> until Apple fixes *their* JRE package bug.

> And that fact is not mentioned in the installation instructions or
> in the release note.

This is really the only legitimate complaint that you have presented
during this entire riduculous thread.

> And until the release of 5.1 there was no need to install the JDK.

Things/requirements change.

> And, unless you are a developer, there is no other need for it.

Actually there is - it is now required if you want Libreoffice 5.1+ to
recognize Java8 on a Mac because of Apple's longstanding broken JRE
packaging and a very long standing bug in Java (or is it just the Java
packaging?) itself.

> Besides, it takes up a lot more disk space on your computer.

Rotflmao!

The exact same argument could be made about having to install the old,
extremely insecure Java6 just to make Java8 work.

> I have my own workaround. Use a different product.

Thank god its still a relatively free country.

> This bug will create a very negative impression of LibreOffice among Mac 
> users. That is why I 
> keep reiterating that LibreOffice needs to fix the problem
> 
> Obviously you don't care about Mac users.

Wrong, I just don't care about cry babies who refuse to acknowledge
reality, but prefer to cry and threaten to hold their breath if they
don't get their way.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

Thanks Bob. You're right. I wish Larry the best of luck as he seeks a
better solution for his needs.

Happy weekend everyone!


Best,
Joel

On 03/11/2016 05:52 PM, Robert Boehm wrote:
> Hi. I just want to say that the whole tone of this conversation was
> hostile. I just hope that we can be polite here, even in disagreement.
> I am not sure what axes anyone here has to grind, but none of it was
> helpful nor useful.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 19:22 Joel Madero  > wrote:
>
> Good luck moving forward. Hope you find open source software, at
> no cost
> to you, that have developers that will act like your employees and do
> exactly what you want. 13 years in the open source worldI am
> yet to
> see such a project.
>
>
>
> Warmest Regards,
> Joel
>
> On 03/11/2016 05:17 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> > In other word you don't give a fuck about Mac users.
> >
> > I am now going to recommend, on all forums and users lists I provide
> > support on, that Mac users not use LibreOffice.
> >
> > Just goes to show what a bunch of a-holes LibreOffice developers
> are.
> >
> > On 2016-03-11, 6:33 PM Joel Madero wrote:
> >> All I said was this isn't the appropriate place to discuss w/e
> opinions
> >> you have. You've gotten a crystal clear answer, your responses
> are "sure
> >> Java has some issues but TDF has a responsibility to offer some
> hacky
> >> solution to work around THEIR bug." We've rejected that
> proposal (which
> >> is pretty obvious why we would) and yet you continue to say the
> same
> >> thing. If there are open bug reports - awesome. There is no
> need for
> >> more (in particular since you're not offering to help implement
> a fix).
> >>
> >> I'll dare to askhave you bothered Java with perpetual
> emails about
> >> THEIR bug or are you sticking solely to this list?
> >>
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 03/11/2016 04:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>> On 2016-03-11, 5:55 PM Joel Madero wrote:
>  In shortno.
> >>> Gee. Very in-depth answer.
> >>> Or do you, like some others here, not care about Mac users
> perceptions
> >>> of LibreOffice?
> >>>
> >>> Since I am not on the developer list (and it is not available
> through
> >>> Gmane, which is the only way I follow these and other lists) this
> >>> seemed like the most appropriate list.
> >>>
> >> __
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Robert Boehm]

Hi. I just want to say that the whole tone of this conversation was
hostile. I just hope that we can be polite here, even in disagreement. I am
not sure what axes anyone here has to grind, but none of it was helpful nor
useful.

Thanks.

Bob
On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 19:22 Joel Madero  wrote:

> Good luck moving forward. Hope you find open source software, at no cost
> to you, that have developers that will act like your employees and do
> exactly what you want. 13 years in the open source worldI am yet to
> see such a project.
>
>
>
> Warmest Regards,
> Joel
>
> On 03/11/2016 05:17 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> > In other word you don't give a fuck about Mac users.
> >
> > I am now going to recommend, on all forums and users lists I provide
> > support on, that Mac users not use LibreOffice.
> >
> > Just goes to show what a bunch of a-holes LibreOffice developers are.
> >
> > On 2016-03-11, 6:33 PM Joel Madero wrote:
> >> All I said was this isn't the appropriate place to discuss w/e opinions
> >> you have. You've gotten a crystal clear answer, your responses are "sure
> >> Java has some issues but TDF has a responsibility to offer some hacky
> >> solution to work around THEIR bug." We've rejected that proposal (which
> >> is pretty obvious why we would) and yet you continue to say the same
> >> thing. If there are open bug reports - awesome. There is no need for
> >> more (in particular since you're not offering to help implement a fix).
> >>
> >> I'll dare to askhave you bothered Java with perpetual emails about
> >> THEIR bug or are you sticking solely to this list?
> >>
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 03/11/2016 04:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >>> On 2016-03-11, 5:55 PM Joel Madero wrote:
>  In shortno.
> >>> Gee. Very in-depth answer.
> >>> Or do you, like some others here, not care about Mac users perceptions
> >>> of LibreOffice?
> >>>
> >>> Since I am not on the developer list (and it is not available through
> >>> Gmane, which is the only way I follow these and other lists) this
> >>> seemed like the most appropriate list.
> >>>
> >> __
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

Good luck moving forward. Hope you find open source software, at no cost
to you, that have developers that will act like your employees and do
exactly what you want. 13 years in the open source worldI am yet to
see such a project.



Warmest Regards,
Joel

On 03/11/2016 05:17 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> In other word you don't give a fuck about Mac users.
>
> I am now going to recommend, on all forums and users lists I provide
> support on, that Mac users not use LibreOffice.
>
> Just goes to show what a bunch of a-holes LibreOffice developers are.
>
> On 2016-03-11, 6:33 PM Joel Madero wrote:
>> All I said was this isn't the appropriate place to discuss w/e opinions
>> you have. You've gotten a crystal clear answer, your responses are "sure
>> Java has some issues but TDF has a responsibility to offer some hacky
>> solution to work around THEIR bug." We've rejected that proposal (which
>> is pretty obvious why we would) and yet you continue to say the same
>> thing. If there are open bug reports - awesome. There is no need for
>> more (in particular since you're not offering to help implement a fix).
>>
>> I'll dare to askhave you bothered Java with perpetual emails about
>> THEIR bug or are you sticking solely to this list?
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 03/11/2016 04:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>>> On 2016-03-11, 5:55 PM Joel Madero wrote:
 In shortno.
>>> Gee. Very in-depth answer.
>>> Or do you, like some others here, not care about Mac users perceptions
>>> of LibreOffice?
>>>
>>> Since I am not on the developer list (and it is not available through
>>> Gmane, which is the only way I follow these and other lists) this
>>> seemed like the most appropriate list.
>>>
>> __
>>
>
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

All I said was this isn't the appropriate place to discuss w/e opinions
you have. You've gotten a crystal clear answer, your responses are "sure
Java has some issues but TDF has a responsibility to offer some hacky
solution to work around THEIR bug." We've rejected that proposal (which
is pretty obvious why we would) and yet you continue to say the same
thing. If there are open bug reports - awesome. There is no need for
more (in particular since you're not offering to help implement a fix).

I'll dare to askhave you bothered Java with perpetual emails about
THEIR bug or are you sticking solely to this list?


Best,
Joel

On 03/11/2016 04:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2016-03-11, 5:55 PM Joel Madero wrote:
>> In shortno.
>
> Gee. Very in-depth answer.
> Or do you, like some others here, not care about Mac users perceptions
> of LibreOffice?
>
> Since I am not on the developer list (and it is not available through
> Gmane, which is the only way I follow these and other lists) this
> seemed like the most appropriate list.
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

In shortno.

On 03/11/2016 03:49 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2016-03-11, 5:32 PM Joel Madero wrote:
>> Please take this off discuss@ list, it belongs at best on dev list, QA
>> list, or user listdiscuss list isn't the appropriate place.
> Why???
> I am not a developer and don't follow that list.
> I am not asking for help.
>
> I am reporting a problem with the usability of your product on one of
> the platforms you build it for. The developers broke that function.
> There are bug reports and previous discussions about it on various list.
>
> Shouldn't Discuss list be an appropriate place to discuss problems
> with the usability of the product on specific platforms and the
> impression a broken product will leave on the users of LibreOffice,
> and the likelihood of their continuing to use it or to recommend it to
> others.
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

Please take this off discuss@ list, it belongs at best on dev list, QA
list, or user listdiscuss list isn't the appropriate place.

You can also report a bug (no clue if you did), it will get closed as
NOTOURBUG if it's not our bug.

Thanks.


Best,
Joel

On 03/11/2016 03:22 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote:
>
>
> On 2016-03-11, 4:11 PM Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
>>
>> On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
>>> No. It is a LibreOffice bug. You broke the usability of LibreOffice
>>> on Macs with your code change.
>> *I* broke it? Sorry Larry I'm just a user like you.
>
> It's obvious that "you" on a product mailing list refers to the
> LibreOffice developers.Quit being pedantic.
>
>>> It worked before.
>> Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
>>
>> Libreoffice *fixed* a bug that brought to light a Mac bug.
>
> No. LibreOffice broke it's usability on OS X. If it makes a product
> for OS X it should work for OS X as it currently exists.
> It did not bring to light a Mac bug. The requirement for the older
> Apple developed version of Java to be installed has been known for
> several years and is mentioned in the installation notes.
>
> By the way, the bug is in Java. The installation of the old Apple Java
> is the long-known workaround. The current version broke that
> functionality.
>
>> Deal with it.
>
> Yeah. Mac users will deal with it. They'll quit using LibreOffice.
>
>> It isn't Libreoffice's responsibility to 'work around' everyone
>> else's bugs.
>
> It is LibreOffice's responsibility to make their product work on the
> platforms they make it for.
>
>>
>>> Any new user of LibreOffice on Macs will find out the database
>>> doesn't work.
>> No - they will find that a *few* features/functions won't work.
>>
>> The reality is *most* will never know it.
>
> The lack of Java also affects some extensions .
> That is no excuse for making software that doesn't work
>
>>> It is not Apples's responsibility to make your software usable
>> There is a *bug* in Apple's provided JRE package that has been there for
>> a very long time.
>>
>> The Libreoffice devs finally decided to make a change to their code that
>> stops 'working around' Apple's long standing bug (at least thats how I
>> read the comments)...
>
> Actually, it's a bug in Java. You obviously didn't do a lot of
> research. Are you a Mac user?
>
>> There is a simple workaround that *you* can employ - install the JDK -
>> until Apple fixes *their* JRE package bug.
>
> And that fact is not mentioned in the installation instructions or in
> the release note. And until the release of 5.1 there was no need to
> install the JDK. And, unless you are a developer, there is no other
> need for it. Besides, it takes up a lot more disk space on your computer.
>
> I have my own workaround. Use a different product.
>
> This bug will create a very negative impression of LibreOffice among
> Mac users. That is why I keep reiterating that LibreOffice needs to
> fix the problem
>
> Obviously you don't care about Mac users.
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Richard]

Seems that from Mac users point of view,
there was no bug until LibO fixed their bug
and exposed the Mac bug.

Wonder who the Mac users will blame?


On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 5:41 PM, Tanstaafl 
wrote:

> On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
>
> On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> > No. It is a LibreOffice bug. You broke the usability of LibreOffice
> > on Macs with your code change.
>
> *I* broke it? Sorry Larry I'm just a user like you.
>
> > It worked before.
>
> Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
>
> Libreoffice *fixed* a bug that brought to light a Mac bug.
>
> Deal with it.
>
> It isn't Libreoffice's responsibility to 'work around' everyone else's
> bugs.
>
> > Any new user of LibreOffice on Macs will find out the database
> > doesn't work.
>
> No - they will find that a *few* features/functions won't work.
>
> The reality is *most* will never know it.
>
> > It is not Apples's responsibility to make your software usable
>
> There is a *bug* in Apple's provided JRE package that has been there for
> a very long time.
>
> The Libreoffice devs finally decided to make a change to their code that
> stops 'working around' Apple's long standing bug (at least thats how I
> read the comments)...
>
> There is a simple workaround that *you* can employ - install the JDK -
> until Apple fixes *their* JRE package bug.
>
> Enjoy...
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:

On 3/11/2016 4:19 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> No. It is a LibreOffice bug. You broke the usability of LibreOffice
> on Macs with your code change.

*I* broke it? Sorry Larry I'm just a user like you.

> It worked before.

Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

Libreoffice *fixed* a bug that brought to light a Mac bug.

Deal with it.

It isn't Libreoffice's responsibility to 'work around' everyone else's bugs.

> Any new user of LibreOffice on Macs will find out the database
> doesn't work.

No - they will find that a *few* features/functions won't work.

The reality is *most* will never know it.

> It is not Apples's responsibility to make your software usable

There is a *bug* in Apple's provided JRE package that has been there for
a very long time.

The Libreoffice devs finally decided to make a change to their code that
stops 'working around' Apple's long standing bug (at least thats how I
read the comments)...

There is a simple workaround that *you* can employ - install the JDK -
until Apple fixes *their* JRE package bug.

Enjoy...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Tanstaafl]

Why is this thread in the tdf-discuss list?

On 3/11/2016 3:28 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> Proof??? JRE works with 5.0 and doesn't work with 5.1. That is pretty 
> objective  proof. 
> LibreOffice code changed and now does not find JRE on OS X.
> 
> In case you weren't paying attention when 5.1.0 came out, here are some posts 
> from a thread 
> "Java broke on LO 5.1 on Macs"
> from the us...@global.libreoffice.org mailing list. Note the comment /*"I'm 
> not sure we did 
> ourselves a favour with that change..."*/.

And in that very thread - started by you - it was explained - to you -
that this was a *deliberate* code change to address a *broken* JRE
provided by Apple (the fact that you had to have the Java6 JRE installed
to get the Jave8 JRE installed is a clue that something wasn't right,
no?)...

I quote V Stuart Foote:

> No, Oracle  must fix the JRE, or Apple must correct OS X Java system calls. 
> Until then, LO for tdf#94716 now requires use of the unaffected JDK -- at
> the expense of OS X users now having to install the JDK rather than a broken
> JRE to access the Java runtimes.
> 
> See Oracle's notes:
> http://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=7131356
> 
> The LibreOffice details are in  tdf#74877
> and  
> tdf#94716   
> 
> LibreOffice has no skin in the game beyond running the Java based HSQLDB 
> for Base internal database--and when we fully move to FireBird very little
> requirement for Java going forward.  Java runtime -- from a JRE or JDK
> becomes irrelevant to the project.

So, you are complaining about a Mac bug here... please take it to the
appropriate place (wherever you report Mac bugs)...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Joel Madero]

>
>
> Why? Change in LibreOffice code broke it. Nothing to do with Apple.
>
Proof? Maybe we fixed something that just triggered a bug already in
Javado you have some objective proof that this is our bug?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/11/2016 12:51 PM, Larry Gusaas  wrote:
> On 2016-03-11, 4:18 AM Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>> Le 11/03/2016 01:47, Larry Gusaas a écrit :
>>> LibreOffice 5.1.1 on Macs still doesn't recognize Java Runtime
>>> Environment (JRE 1.8.0_73 & OS X ver.10.11.3)
>>>
>>> You need to fix this bug. Can't use database without JRE.
>>>
>> Cf. bug 96163
>>
>> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96163

> That is not a fix but a workaround. Fix it.

Since this is only a problem on Mac, are you sure it isn't a bug caused
by Apple/OSX?

Maybe THEY should 'fix it'.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Java still broke on LibreOffice 5.1.1

[Uwe Altmann]

Hi

Am 11.03.16 um 10:18 schrieb Alexander Thurgood:

> Install the JDK instead, it really isn't that hard. A PITA yes, but not
> hard.

Wow - that helps! Find it here:
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk8-downloads-2133151.html
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Uwe Altmann

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