Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Brett Cannon]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 at 07:25 Ian Cordasco 
wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Jason R. Coombs 
> wrote:
> > In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support
> channels from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence.
> Although IRC has served us well, there are systems now with clear feature
> advantages, which are crucial to my continuous participation:
>
> I'm choosing not to read this as a threat.
>

I don't think it was a threat to begin with. For it to be a threat it would
somehow need to affect you personally. I think all Jason was trying to do
was to point out this is not some idle conversation to him, but in fact
impacts how he participates in communications regarding setuptools and PyPA.


>
> > - always-on experience; even if one’s device is suspended or otherwise
> offline.
> > - mobile support — the in-cloud experience is essential for low power
> and intermittently connected devices.
> > - push notifications allow a project leader to remain largely inactive
> in a channel, but attention raised promptly when users make a relevant
> mention.
> > - continuous, integrated logging for catching up on the conversation.
>
> So here's a question: Why are these crucial to you? You've explained
> potential benefits but not why they're crucial to you and should be
> crucial to anyone else.
>
> Why do you need an "always-on experience"? Why do you feel required to
> always be on? Do other people tell you that you need to always be on
> chat?
>
> Push notifications allow for prompt attention to mentions, but are all
> mentions push notification worthy? Do we all need to be herded to
> platforms that will spam us because someone mentioned us by nick or
> name? I personally see this as a net negative. I don't need an email
> or push notification to my phone because someone said my name in a
> channel. That's a distraction. It prevents me from working on things
> because it creates a false sense of alarm.
>

I think there's a difference between getting a push notification that rings
your phone and one that simply sits in your notification bar. For the
former that could get annoying if abused, but for the latter it could be
handy if e.g. you are working on a bug and you happen to know that Jason
could help speed things up for you by answering a question if he happens to
be available. To me there's three levels of engagement: (1) I'm willing to
be interrupted, (2) if I'm available I'll notice, else I will ignore it,
and (3) just collect all the messages and I will check the next time I
explicitly log in. You solve (1) by simply being logged into IRC all the
time, but I don't know how to get (2) or (3) to work in IRC w/o setting up
something like a reflector or something fancy (#3 can be covered by email,
and maybe #2 with the right setup).


>
> Continuous logging is on for #pypa and #pypa-dev as I understand it.
> Surely it's not "integrated" into your chat client, but it's not as if
> the logging doesn't exist.
>

For me the constant connection allows for collecting mentions into a single
notification area (#3 in the engagement level list I mentioned above). I
personally have 4 devices I connect to the internet with and none of them
short of my phone is on constantly. With some kind of constant connection I
could then have all of the mentions I have not seen collected into a single
place so I could address them no matter what device I choose to check in
with. Otherwise I have to restrict myself to only using a device which has
an IRC client that can reconcile where I left off and pick up on all the
messages that mentioned me since I last logged in.

And as for mobile access, that's just a matter of occasional convenience. I
don't think that messaging all the time from my mobile phone is the best
option, but it is one that I can do while e.g. sitting on the bus on the
way to work so that I can spend my time at home doing other things
potentially.


>
> > Both Gitter and Slack offer the experience I’m after, with Gitter
> feeling like a better fit for open-source projects (or groups of them).
>
> I've tried using Gitter several times in the past. Unless they've
> fixed their bugs related to sending me emails every day about activity
> in a channel I spoke in once and left, I think they should be
> eliminated.
>
> Slack has also had several outages lately that should also disqualify
> it (besides the fact that it's incredibly closed source and will be
> expensive to maintain logs in).
>
> > I’ve tried using IRCCloud, and it provides a similar, suitable
> experience on the same IRC infrastructure, with one big difference. While
> Gitter and Slack offer the above features for free, IRCCloud requires a
> $5/user/month subscription (otherwise, connections are dropped after two
> hours). I did reach out to them to see if they could offer some
> professional consideration for contributors, but I haven’t heard from them.
> Furthermore, 

Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Anna Ravenscroft]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Glyph  wrote:

> There might be a useful discussion buried in here about where official
> real-time _development_ discussion should go - but then, any weighty
> decisions should be discussed on the mailing list anyway to ensure that
> people from different time zones can see the discussion and participate in
> it asynchronously.
>

+1 for asynchronous discussion and participation.


-- 
cordially,
Anna
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Ian Cordasco]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Glyph  wrote:
>
> On Jun 10, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Robert Collins 
> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I won't be switching to gitter or slack - I find the push
> notifications and always-on experience exhausting. It gets in the way
> of thinking or doing anything useful. I often leave my phone in
> priority-only mode to shut facebook and twitter and such things up for
> hours - or days - at a time.
>
>
> If you read my blog, you'll know this already – I also find Slack tiring in
> exactly this way.  I acknowledge the usability benefits over IRC, but the
> effect of those benefits is mostly just prompting me to spend more time
> staring at chat.  Which is not what I want to be doing.

It's in the service's best interest to constantly grab your attention
because it provides a false sense of dependence. It's why Gitter
spammed me, it's why Slack emails me everytime someone says @channel,
and it's why I've uninstalled Twitter from my phone (so I don't get 2
or more notifications for someone trying to interact with me there).
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Glyph]

> On Jun 10, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Robert Collins  wrote:
> 
> FWIW, I won't be switching to gitter or slack - I find the push
> notifications and always-on experience exhausting. It gets in the way
> of thinking or doing anything useful. I often leave my phone in
> priority-only mode to shut facebook and twitter and such things up for
> hours - or days - at a time.

If you read my blog , you'll know this 
already – I also find Slack tiring in exactly this way.  I acknowledge the 
usability benefits over IRC, but the effect of those benefits is mostly just 
prompting me to spend more time staring at chat.  Which is not what I want to 
be doing.

-glyph

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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Glyph]

> On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Jason R. Coombs  wrote:
> 
> In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels 
> from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence.

Opinions about free software vs. federation vs. user experience aside, I don't 
think that this is a worthwhile or even realistic goal.  There are many people 
who are going to ask for support on IRC, and there are many who are willing to 
provide it there.  Therefore "support channels" on IRC will continue to exist 
in some form or fashion.  It seems fine to me that you would start one on 
Gitter or Slack - other folks seem to like those channels as well.

There might be a useful discussion buried in here about where official 
real-time _development_ discussion should go - but then, any weighty decisions 
should be discussed on the mailing list anyway to ensure that people from 
different time zones can see the discussion and participate in it 
asynchronously.

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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Robert Collins]

On 11 June 2016 at 01:22, Jason R. Coombs  wrote:
> In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels 
> from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence. Although IRC 
> has served us well, there are systems now with clear feature advantages, 
> which are crucial to my continuous participation:

FWIW, I won't be switching to gitter or slack - I find the push
notifications and always-on experience exhausting. It gets in the way
of thinking or doing anything useful. I often leave my phone in
priority-only mode to shut facebook and twitter and such things up for
hours - or days - at a time.

Thats presuming there is a IRC bridge in whatever the community as a
whole does. If there isn't, then I'd setup an account for use from a
browser when desired, but from the sounds of it I'd need to blacklist
their email address to keep noise down.

-Rob
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Ian Cordasco]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:
> On Jun 10, 2016 07:25, "Ian Cordasco"  wrote:
>>
> [...]
>> I've tried using Gitter several times in the past. Unless they've
>> fixed their bugs related to sending me emails every day about activity
>> in a channel I spoke in once and left, I think they should be
>> eliminated.
>
> As a point of information, there's definitely a toggle you can flip to turn
> this off.

At the time I did flip that toggle and the only thing that worked was
removing my account from Gitter. If that toggle actually does
something now, they at least eventually fix bugs.
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Noah Kantrowitz]

Chef is in the process of navigating an IRC->Slack migration. 
https://github.com/chef/chef-rfc/blob/master/rfc074-community-slack.md is the 
document I wrote up on the pros and cons of various options. Gitter has a 
better UX for new users compared to Slack because it was built to be for public 
use from the start, but their actual chat UI/UX isn't as polished as Slack.

--Noah

> On Jun 10, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Jason R. Coombs  wrote:
> 
> In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels 
> from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence. Although IRC 
> has served us well, there are systems now with clear feature advantages, 
> which are crucial to my continuous participation:
> 
> - always-on experience; even if one’s device is suspended or otherwise 
> offline.
> - mobile support — the in-cloud experience is essential for low power and 
> intermittently connected devices.
> - push notifications allow a project leader to remain largely inactive in a 
> channel, but attention raised promptly when users make a relevant mention.
> - continuous, integrated logging for catching up on the conversation.
> 
> Both Gitter and Slack offer the experience I’m after, with Gitter feeling 
> like a better fit for open-source projects (or groups of them).
> 
> I’ve tried using IRCCloud, and it provides a similar, suitable experience on 
> the same IRC infrastructure, with one big difference. While Gitter and Slack 
> offer the above features for free, IRCCloud requires a $5/user/month 
> subscription (otherwise, connections are dropped after two hours). I did 
> reach out to them to see if they could offer some professional consideration 
> for contributors, but I haven’t heard from them. Furthermore, IRCCloud 
> requires an additional account on top of the account required for Freenode.
> 
> In addition to the critical features above, Gitter and Slack offer other 
> advantages:
> 
> - For Gitter, single-sign on using the same Github account for authentication 
> and authorization means no extra accounts. Slack requires one new account.
> - An elegant web-based interface as a first-class feature, a lower barrier of 
> entry for users.
> - Zero-install or config.
> - Integration with source code and other systems.
> 
> It’s because of the limitations of these systems that I find myself rarely in 
> IRC, only joining when I have a specific issue, even though I’d like to be 
> permanently present.
> 
> Donald has offered to run an IRC bouncer for me, but such a bouncer is only a 
> half-solution, not providing the push notifications, mobile apps (IRC apps 
> exist, but just get disconnected, and often fail to connect on mobile 
> provider networks), or integrated logging.
> 
> I note that both Gitter and Slack offer IRC interfaces, so those users who 
> prefer their IRC workflow can continue to use that if they so choose.
> 
> I know there are other alternatives, like self-hosted solutions, but I’d like 
> to avoid adding the burden of administering such a system. If someone wanted 
> to take on that role, I’d be open to that alternative.
> 
> I’d like to propose we move #pypa-dev to /pypa/dev and #pypa to /pypa/support 
> in gitter.
> 
> Personally, the downsides to moving to Gitter (other than enacting the move 
> itself) seem negligible. What do you think? What downsides am I missing?
> ___
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Nathaniel Smith]

On Jun 10, 2016 07:25, "Ian Cordasco"  wrote:
>
[...]
> I've tried using Gitter several times in the past. Unless they've
> fixed their bugs related to sending me emails every day about activity
> in a channel I spoke in once and left, I think they should be
> eliminated.

As a point of information, there's definitely a toggle you can flip to turn
this off.

-n
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Wayne Werner]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Jason R. Coombs wrote:


Personally, the downsides to moving to Gitter (other than enacting the move 
itself) seem negligible. What do you think? What downsides am I missing?


That may be the main issue. Given the responses thus far, it seems like 
most people are happy with the IRC experience. I know that I mostly prefer 
the IRC experience - indeed, I actually access *my* gitter rooms through 
their IRC bridge.


Here's a question - why not run something like hubot or 
https://gist.github.com/RobertSzkutak/1326452 or just use logging with 
irssi?


If you're using a bot, it's pretty trivial to have your bot send you emails,
or setup and arduino/raspberry pi and a servo so when you're mentioned you
*literally* get pushed :) You could probably configure irssi to work the 
same way, though I've never bothered to do such things.


You should remember that the political effort of changing the status quo 
*is* an effort and there is always a cost associated. Sometimes it's worth 
the effort (Python3 and unicode), and sometimes it's not.


Personally, I'm already connected to both the gitter bridge and freenode 
through irssi, though I'm not present in the #pypa room. I could, and 
thinking about it I probably *should* join the #python and #pypa rooms and 
configure irssi to join those rooms when I join freenode.


If you really just prefer the gitter interface, you *could* always just 
setup your bot to relay messages from IRC to your own gitter room, and 
vice versa. Unless that violates someones TOS, I really don't know, 
because that's not something that I'm interested in :)


-W
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Fred Drake]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Ian Cordasco
 wrote:
> So here's a question: Why are these crucial to you? You've explained
> potential benefits but not why they're crucial to you and should be
> crucial to anyone else.

For people who want an always-on presence, there's also Quassel IRC:

http://quassel-irc.org/

Not sure if that fits Jason's goals, but avoids impacting other users.


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.
"A storm broke loose in my mind."  --Albert Einstein
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Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Ian Cordasco]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Jason R. Coombs  wrote:
> In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels 
> from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence. Although IRC 
> has served us well, there are systems now with clear feature advantages, 
> which are crucial to my continuous participation:

I'm choosing not to read this as a threat.

> - always-on experience; even if one’s device is suspended or otherwise 
> offline.
> - mobile support — the in-cloud experience is essential for low power and 
> intermittently connected devices.
> - push notifications allow a project leader to remain largely inactive in a 
> channel, but attention raised promptly when users make a relevant mention.
> - continuous, integrated logging for catching up on the conversation.

So here's a question: Why are these crucial to you? You've explained
potential benefits but not why they're crucial to you and should be
crucial to anyone else.

Why do you need an "always-on experience"? Why do you feel required to
always be on? Do other people tell you that you need to always be on
chat?

Push notifications allow for prompt attention to mentions, but are all
mentions push notification worthy? Do we all need to be herded to
platforms that will spam us because someone mentioned us by nick or
name? I personally see this as a net negative. I don't need an email
or push notification to my phone because someone said my name in a
channel. That's a distraction. It prevents me from working on things
because it creates a false sense of alarm.

Continuous logging is on for #pypa and #pypa-dev as I understand it.
Surely it's not "integrated" into your chat client, but it's not as if
the logging doesn't exist.

> Both Gitter and Slack offer the experience I’m after, with Gitter feeling 
> like a better fit for open-source projects (or groups of them).

I've tried using Gitter several times in the past. Unless they've
fixed their bugs related to sending me emails every day about activity
in a channel I spoke in once and left, I think they should be
eliminated.

Slack has also had several outages lately that should also disqualify
it (besides the fact that it's incredibly closed source and will be
expensive to maintain logs in).

> I’ve tried using IRCCloud, and it provides a similar, suitable experience on 
> the same IRC infrastructure, with one big difference. While Gitter and Slack 
> offer the above features for free, IRCCloud requires a $5/user/month 
> subscription (otherwise, connections are dropped after two hours). I did 
> reach out to them to see if they could offer some professional consideration 
> for contributors, but I haven’t heard from them. Furthermore, IRCCloud 
> requires an additional account on top of the account required for Freenode.
>
> In addition to the critical features above, Gitter and Slack offer other 
> advantages:
>
> - For Gitter, single-sign on using the same Github account for authentication 
> and authorization means no extra accounts. Slack requires one new account.

IRC requires one new account.

> - An elegant web-based interface as a first-class feature, a lower barrier of 
> entry for users.

webchat.freenode.net may not be elegant, but it is first-class.

> - Zero-install or config.

Slack pesters you to install their desktop client and if you don't
want constant channel notifications you do have to configure it.
webchat.freenode.net offers no config.

> - Integration with source code and other systems.

Do you mean things like GitHub? GitHub already integrates with IRC.
What special kind of integration are do you think Gitter and Slack
have that GitHub's IRC integration doesn't?

> It’s because of the limitations of these systems that I find myself rarely in 
> IRC, only joining when I have a specific issue, even though I’d like to be 
> permanently present.
>
> Donald has offered to run an IRC bouncer for me, but such a bouncer is only a 
> half-solution, not providing the push notifications, mobile apps (IRC apps 
> exist, but just get disconnected, and often fail to connect on mobile 
> provider networks), or integrated logging.
>
> I note that both Gitter and Slack offer IRC interfaces, so those users who 
> prefer their IRC workflow can continue to use that if they so choose.

They're very poor IRC interfaces, making people who want to use a
simple, free, standard second class citizens (which is par for the
course as far as open source projects go).

> I know there are other alternatives, like self-hosted solutions, but I’d like 
> to avoid adding the burden of administering such a system. If someone wanted 
> to take on that role, I’d be open to that alternative.
>
> I’d like to propose we move #pypa-dev to /pypa/dev and #pypa to /pypa/support 
> in gitter.
>
> Personally, the downsides to moving to Gitter (other than enacting the move 
> itself) seem negligible. What do you think? What downsides am I missing?

With IRC we can run 

Re: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Alex Walters]

Other than the fact that we now would need to redirect the 2000 (at any given 
time) users of #python, and 200 (roughly) users of #pypa to an inherently 
commercial, and frankly, hard to discover service?  It's tantamount to 
discontinuing chat support, which if that’s what you want to do, so be it, but 
that’s what it is.

(I have no argument about moving -dev)

> -Original Message-
> From: Distutils-SIG [mailto:distutils-sig-bounces+tritium-
> list=sdamon@python.org] On Behalf Of Jason R. Coombs
> Sent: Friday, June 10, 2016 9:22 AM
> To: distutils-sig@python.org
> Subject: [Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar
> 
> In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels
> from IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence. Although IRC
> has served us well, there are systems now with clear feature advantages,
> which are crucial to my continuous participation:
> 
> - always-on experience; even if one’s device is suspended or otherwise
> offline.
> - mobile support — the in-cloud experience is essential for low power and
> intermittently connected devices.
> - push notifications allow a project leader to remain largely inactive in a
> channel, but attention raised promptly when users make a relevant mention.
> - continuous, integrated logging for catching up on the conversation.
> 
> Both Gitter and Slack offer the experience I’m after, with Gitter feeling 
> like a
> better fit for open-source projects (or groups of them).
> 
> I’ve tried using IRCCloud, and it provides a similar, suitable experience on 
> the
> same IRC infrastructure, with one big difference. While Gitter and Slack offer
> the above features for free, IRCCloud requires a $5/user/month subscription
> (otherwise, connections are dropped after two hours). I did reach out to
> them to see if they could offer some professional consideration for
> contributors, but I haven’t heard from them. Furthermore, IRCCloud requires
> an additional account on top of the account required for Freenode.
> 
> In addition to the critical features above, Gitter and Slack offer other
> advantages:
> 
> - For Gitter, single-sign on using the same Github account for authentication
> and authorization means no extra accounts. Slack requires one new account.
> - An elegant web-based interface as a first-class feature, a lower barrier of
> entry for users.
> - Zero-install or config.
> - Integration with source code and other systems.
> 
> It’s because of the limitations of these systems that I find myself rarely in
> IRC, only joining when I have a specific issue, even though I’d like to be
> permanently present.
> 
> Donald has offered to run an IRC bouncer for me, but such a bouncer is only a
> half-solution, not providing the push notifications, mobile apps (IRC apps
> exist, but just get disconnected, and often fail to connect on mobile provider
> networks), or integrated logging.
> 
> I note that both Gitter and Slack offer IRC interfaces, so those users who
> prefer their IRC workflow can continue to use that if they so choose.
> 
> I know there are other alternatives, like self-hosted solutions, but I’d like 
> to
> avoid adding the burden of administering such a system. If someone wanted
> to take on that role, I’d be open to that alternative.
> 
> I’d like to propose we move #pypa-dev to /pypa/dev and #pypa to
> /pypa/support in gitter.
> 
> Personally, the downsides to moving to Gitter (other than enacting the move
> itself) seem negligible. What do you think? What downsides am I missing?
> ___
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[Distutils] Switch PyPA from IRC to Gitter or similar

[Jason R. Coombs]

In #pypa-dev, I raised the possibility of moving our PyPA support channels from 
IRC to another hosted solution that enables persistence. Although IRC has 
served us well, there are systems now with clear feature advantages, which are 
crucial to my continuous participation:

- always-on experience; even if one’s device is suspended or otherwise offline.
- mobile support — the in-cloud experience is essential for low power and 
intermittently connected devices.
- push notifications allow a project leader to remain largely inactive in a 
channel, but attention raised promptly when users make a relevant mention.
- continuous, integrated logging for catching up on the conversation.

Both Gitter and Slack offer the experience I’m after, with Gitter feeling like 
a better fit for open-source projects (or groups of them).

I’ve tried using IRCCloud, and it provides a similar, suitable experience on 
the same IRC infrastructure, with one big difference. While Gitter and Slack 
offer the above features for free, IRCCloud requires a $5/user/month 
subscription (otherwise, connections are dropped after two hours). I did reach 
out to them to see if they could offer some professional consideration for 
contributors, but I haven’t heard from them. Furthermore, IRCCloud requires an 
additional account on top of the account required for Freenode.

In addition to the critical features above, Gitter and Slack offer other 
advantages:

- For Gitter, single-sign on using the same Github account for authentication 
and authorization means no extra accounts. Slack requires one new account.
- An elegant web-based interface as a first-class feature, a lower barrier of 
entry for users.
- Zero-install or config.
- Integration with source code and other systems.

It’s because of the limitations of these systems that I find myself rarely in 
IRC, only joining when I have a specific issue, even though I’d like to be 
permanently present.

Donald has offered to run an IRC bouncer for me, but such a bouncer is only a 
half-solution, not providing the push notifications, mobile apps (IRC apps 
exist, but just get disconnected, and often fail to connect on mobile provider 
networks), or integrated logging.

I note that both Gitter and Slack offer IRC interfaces, so those users who 
prefer their IRC workflow can continue to use that if they so choose.

I know there are other alternatives, like self-hosted solutions, but I’d like 
to avoid adding the burden of administering such a system. If someone wanted to 
take on that role, I’d be open to that alternative.

I’d like to propose we move #pypa-dev to /pypa/dev and #pypa to /pypa/support 
in gitter.

Personally, the downsides to moving to Gitter (other than enacting the move 
itself) seem negligible. What do you think? What downsides am I missing?
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