I'm in the camp of having a flexible policy that allows us to have
discussions that examine the current state of the Django and Python
ecosystems. This allows us to make informed decisions.
As several folks have mentioned before, 3.6 was a more momentous release
than most versions of Python.
Yep, I'm definitely in favor of dropping 3.5 early and using all the nice
features extensively. Especially type annotations. All projects I work on
use 3.6 or later for quite some time now, whatever debian guys might feel
On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 12:16 PM Josh Smeaton
OK, one last email, then I'm going to bow out of this one...
I think there are two issues here:
* Which versions of Python should we support?
* Which version should we guide beginners to?
The second of these only depends on the first because we don't support all
current versions of Python
On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 7:51 PM Alex Krupp wrote:
> The biggest issues with beginners I see at events like Django Girls or
> just regular Python meetups involve people needing to edit their
> .bash_profile or .bashrc files. Most people can figure out how to download
The biggest issues with beginners I see at events like Django Girls or just
regular Python meetups involve people needing to edit their .bash_profile
or .bashrc files. Most people can figure out how to download the right
version of Python for their platform, but then their shell to actually use
I read your response, and I think what you said is very important. I would
like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind. I'm not trying to back
you into a corner; I'm trying to understand what you see with your teaching
and getting insight from that.
Do you think it makes sense to
I worry about us making this kind of decision in the rarified air of the
developer mailing list. It's a technical question yes, but it affects the
I think, here, we underplay just how hard it is for people out there. IMO
expecting that people suffering from massive
I just want to recap what I'm hearing.
After listening to the arguments, it doesn't sound like many seasoned
developers/Django users would need the 3.5 support to remain for
development purposes. Therefore, their needs don't seem to need to be
Larger organizations may have issues with
FWIW, most of my problems with python version dependencies went away when I
started to use a custom build on our servers. Allows easy upgrades and a
good environment for our programs.
On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 4:01:28 PM UTC+1, Dan Davis wrote:
> My employer is still using CPython 3.4.6
Can you explain more about what they struggled with? Maybe there's other
ways to solve those problems.
On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 9:43:37 AM UTC-5, Tom Forbes wrote:
> This message really resonated with me, especially after helping a few
> beginners get started with Python and watching
My employer is still using CPython 3.4.6 on the servers, and CPython 3.5.1
on the desktop. I've been instrumental in developing a plan to move
forward. I know of one established company and one start-up, by name,
where they are still using CPython 2.7 (and a horrendously old version of
`pip install Django` gives the latest version of Django that's compatible
for the current version of Python. Yes, users will have to switch versions
at docs.djangoproject.com and they'll be in the same situation at
docs.python.org if they're using Python 3.5. For learning Django, I'd think
This message really resonated with me, especially after helping a few
beginners get started with Python and watching them struggle with exactly
this kind of thing.
I'd be +1 on following Python. Looking through the diff there is not a huge
amount of things to remove and IMO none of them are
To be honest, I'm surprised there's even one person who comes within a 1000
miles of this list who's using Python 3.5. :)
My reason for thinking we should follow Python's supported versions is
users, and particularly beginning users, who have got they-don't-know
version and find a tutorial
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:29 AM Tim Graham wrote:
> Let's hear from people who find the current Python support policy
> insufficient for their needs.
Agreed. I'm not one of them, dropping 3.5 support disadvantages me in no
way. I don't use it in production or in development, and would have
It's interesting to me that no one (besides Claude -- and that's based on
his ability to contribute to Django) has indicated that they care about
Python 3.5 support in their deployments of Django 3.0... so I wonder if
there is really a strong need for it. Who is saying, "I want to use the
> So, phrasing... maybe... as a draft: "Typically, we will support a Python
> version unless it will be end of life before the corresponding version of
> Django is outside of mainstream support. For example, Python 3.5 security
> support ends September 2019, whilst Django 3.1 ends mainstream
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 10:55 AM Adam Johnson wrote:
> So, phrasing... maybe... as a draft: "Typically, we will support a Python
>> version unless it will be end of life before the corresponding version of
>> Django is outside of mainstream support. For example, Python 3.5 security
Sorry I mistyped. " Python 3.5 security support ends September 2020" (but
you get the point.)
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> My idea was to set the policy as : when a new major Django version is
released, it supports all current supported versions of Python.
I agree with this — more or less...
Python 3.5 is officially supported for the entire life of Django 3.0. (It
goes EOL a month after Django 3.0)
(c.p  vs
Le mercredi 23 janvier 2019 08:31:17 UTC+1, James Bennett a écrit :
> I worry about the precedent we'd set if we made an exception for Debian,
> because the next question would be "OK, can we have an exception for Red
> Hat, too?" Keep in mind Red Hat currently sells up to fourteen years of
I'm not going to argue one way or the other, as it doesn't really affect me
either way. (I will say that Python 3.5 is no longer a supported version on
On the other hand, I will argue how supporting 3.5 might affect the
upcoming Django version. I've included my opinionated breakdown
I worry about the precedent we'd set if we made an exception for Debian,
because the next question would be "OK, can we have an exception for Red
Hat, too?" Keep in mind Red Hat currently sells up to fourteen years of
support for their RHEL platform.
So I think it's best to recognize that:
Don't discount being able to use features from newer versions of python
within Django itself.
- dicts are more performant
- dicts/kwargs/class attributes are ordered (cpython implementation detail
for 3.6 - allowing us to consider removing descriptor
We can look at the larger distros (Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL). For RHEL, their
derivatives include CentOS , Scientic Linux, Amazon Linux, Oracle Linux.
RHEL 7 has no (main) Python 3 support. It's only introduced in RHEL 8
(which is currently in beta).
That gives us for Debian Stretch (stable) and
Now that we've dropped Python 2, I personally wouldn't mind having the
policy be to support all supported versions of python (except 2.7) at the
time of each Django release. So Django would drop just after Python drops.
(The most recent version of Django (and maybe LTS too) should probably also
I would ask: what are the pros and cons of dropping support for python 3.5?
I think allowing users to easily use and install django based applications
is more important than strictly follow a python version support policy.
I think that if we drop support for python 3.5, which is the default
I like stability too, but I think Django's current policy is useful for
driving the ecosystem forwards. Users sticking on old/stable versions of
Python can stick on old/stable versions of Django :)
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 at 10:07, Claude Paroz wrote:
> I understand my obsession for stable software
I understand my obsession for stable software puts me in a small-minority
group and I would not like to be an obstacle for all other Django users and
Let's stick to the current policy. I'll try to remember that and prevent
commenting on the next " Drop python support..." ticket :-)
In addition, with tools like https://github.com/pyenv/pyenv available that make
changing the currently applicable python version in any given shell extremely
easy, I feel pinning support to a specific operating system version, however
stable, is not the optimal approach
You received this
I don't feel like my voice should have much weight, but I think that the
policy as written is better. Debian aims to be stable long term, and for us
to match Debian, especially when not in our LTS releases, seems excessive
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:56 AM Tim Graham wrote:
> When deciding
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