Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-12 Thread '1337 Shadow Hacker' via Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)
Given the number of Open Pull request, does Django craves more contribution 
quantity, or quality ? Not the same focus

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Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-08 Thread William Vincent
I think the way Rails does it, aka with well-done newcomers guide 
(https://edgeguides.rubyonrails.org/contributing_to_ruby_on_rails.html) is 
worth looking at, as Carlton notes. A bit more streamlined than the current 
Django How To Contribute Guides.

Incidentally, Carlton and I will be having a chat with DHH of Ruby on Rails 
fame in September for the DjangoChat podcast so if there are any questions 
we should pose to him on managing the Rails community, do pass along to us. 
Certainly I'll ask him about issue tracking!

On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 3:08:39 PM UTC-4, Tim Graham wrote:
>
> Although I'm not engaged too much with Django development now, a big 
> drawback of moving to GitHub issues for me would be that I could no longer 
> do a Google search like "something something site:code.djangoproject.com". 
> I could pretty much always find the ticket I was looking for that way. 
> Maybe GitHub issue search would be just as good but I find Google results 
> (with a snippet from the page) more useful.
>
> Another migration consideration is that Trac tickets are formatted using a 
> different syntax than GitHub issues.
>
> A migration feels like weeks of work and it doesn't strike me as a "heck 
> yea!" improvement. There would probably be benefits and drawbacks. As 
> Carlton said, I think it's time that could be more usefully allocated.
>
> I wonder how putting issues on GitHub would increase engagement? Is it 
> that Trac isn't discoverable from GitHub? What if GitHub let us redirect 
> https://github.com/django/django/issues (with the "Issues" tab) to 
> code.djangoproject.com?
>
> On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 4:48:14 AM UTC-4, Carlton Gibson wrote:
>>
>> Just on this point: 
>>
>> > I agree with Andrew Godwins statement on Django loosing many 
>> contributors over the years and being in largely maintenance mode. 
>>
>> First, I'm not sure Andrew actually said this. Rather I think he reported 
>> is a point raised. However...
>>
>> I hear this kind of thing said. It ties-in with the "Django is boring" 
>> trope, when that's not meant as a compliment. 
>>
>> I think it couldn't be further from the truth. 
>>
>> Yes, these ain't the wild west days of yore. (Granted)
>>
>> But Django has successfully transitioned (with large thanks to the effort 
>> Tim Graham put in as Fellow over that time) from young to mature and it 
>> still growing. 
>>
>> Even if you take out your favourite headline feature — don't say it :) — 
>> v3.0 is going to be an awesome release. 2.2 was too. And 2.1. And it's 
>> continuing forward. 
>>
>> I wish we'd drop negative self-talk. It lowers morale and isn't even 
>> correct. Django is in great shape, and only getting stronger. 
>>
>> Could we do with more contributors? Yes. So let's do what we can to make 
>> that better. 
>>
>> I think of the effort to move from Trac. Maybe it's worth it... But I 
>> think of the same effort spent improving djangoproject.com, and the How 
>> to contribute guides (I think Tobias said the Contributing docs are 
>> X-thousands of words—all great but not necessarily that approachable), and 
>> so on, and I wonder if it's the best ROI? (That's a genuinely open 
>> question: DRF uses GitHub issues I don't see it leading to any more 
>> engagement there...) 
>>
>> Go Django Go! 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-08 Thread Tim Graham
Although I'm not engaged too much with Django development now, a big 
drawback of moving to GitHub issues for me would be that I could no longer 
do a Google search like "something something site:code.djangoproject.com". 
I could pretty much always find the ticket I was looking for that way. 
Maybe GitHub issue search would be just as good but I find Google results 
(with a snippet from the page) more useful.

Another migration consideration is that Trac tickets are formatted using a 
different syntax than GitHub issues.

A migration feels like weeks of work and it doesn't strike me as a "heck 
yea!" improvement. There would probably be benefits and drawbacks. As 
Carlton said, I think it's time that could be more usefully allocated.

I wonder how putting issues on GitHub would increase engagement? Is it that 
Trac isn't discoverable from GitHub? What if GitHub let us redirect 
https://github.com/django/django/issues (with the "Issues" tab) to 
code.djangoproject.com?

On Thursday, August 8, 2019 at 4:48:14 AM UTC-4, Carlton Gibson wrote:
>
> Just on this point: 
>
> > I agree with Andrew Godwins statement on Django loosing many 
> contributors over the years and being in largely maintenance mode. 
>
> First, I'm not sure Andrew actually said this. Rather I think he reported 
> is a point raised. However...
>
> I hear this kind of thing said. It ties-in with the "Django is boring" 
> trope, when that's not meant as a compliment. 
>
> I think it couldn't be further from the truth. 
>
> Yes, these ain't the wild west days of yore. (Granted)
>
> But Django has successfully transitioned (with large thanks to the effort 
> Tim Graham put in as Fellow over that time) from young to mature and it 
> still growing. 
>
> Even if you take out your favourite headline feature — don't say it :) — 
> v3.0 is going to be an awesome release. 2.2 was too. And 2.1. And it's 
> continuing forward. 
>
> I wish we'd drop negative self-talk. It lowers morale and isn't even 
> correct. Django is in great shape, and only getting stronger. 
>
> Could we do with more contributors? Yes. So let's do what we can to make 
> that better. 
>
> I think of the effort to move from Trac. Maybe it's worth it... But I 
> think of the same effort spent improving djangoproject.com, and the How 
> to contribute guides (I think Tobias said the Contributing docs are 
> X-thousands of words—all great but not necessarily that approachable), and 
> so on, and I wonder if it's the best ROI? (That's a genuinely open 
> question: DRF uses GitHub issues I don't see it leading to any more 
> engagement there...) 
>
> Go Django Go! 
>
>
>
>

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Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-08 Thread Carlton Gibson
Just on this point: 

> I agree with Andrew Godwins statement on Django loosing many contributors 
over the years and being in largely maintenance mode. 

First, I'm not sure Andrew actually said this. Rather I think he reported 
is a point raised. However...

I hear this kind of thing said. It ties-in with the "Django is boring" 
trope, when that's not meant as a compliment. 

I think it couldn't be further from the truth. 

Yes, these ain't the wild west days of yore. (Granted)

But Django has successfully transitioned (with large thanks to the effort 
Tim Graham put in as Fellow over that time) from young to mature and it 
still growing. 

Even if you take out your favourite headline feature — don't say it :) — 
v3.0 is going to be an awesome release. 2.2 was too. And 2.1. And it's 
continuing forward. 

I wish we'd drop negative self-talk. It lowers morale and isn't even 
correct. Django is in great shape, and only getting stronger. 

Could we do with more contributors? Yes. So let's do what we can to make 
that better. 

I think of the effort to move from Trac. Maybe it's worth it... But I think 
of the same effort spent improving djangoproject.com, and the How to 
contribute guides (I think Tobias said the Contributing docs are 
X-thousands of words—all great but not necessarily that approachable), and 
so on, and I wonder if it's the best ROI? (That's a genuinely open 
question: DRF uses GitHub issues I don't see it leading to any more 
engagement there...) 

Go Django Go! 



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Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread John Gooding
Hi All,

I want to thank you all for your time and input. I'll start doing some 
research into how cpython and others are managing this. I will draw up a 
few options and present them so we can better work out the possibilities 
and details before submitting a process DEP. I don't want to submit one if 
there is not a clear path forward, or a general feeling that it could work 
and be worth it.

As far as will we actually get more engagement, or would it all be for no 
gain? I think the only place there is to go is up. There's 43k stars on 
github and 18k forks. I'll try to get some more concrete numbers about 
current engagement level by looking at the data. It might be worth it to 
then compare this projects of a similar nature / size, though I'm not sure 
how much validity that would have, being apples and oranges.

~John

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 1:47:58 PM UTC-7, Andrew Godwin wrote:
>
> We actually discussed this a little at the PyCon AU sprints and the 
> consensus was that GitHub issues would be great *if only they were a bit 
> more featureful*.
>
> The problems I feel are specifically an issue:
>
> - Ticket states; this is not easily replicated with labels, while 
> components etc. are mapped slightly more easily
>
> - Assignment of tickets to people outside the organisation - while bots 
> allow triage, I believe taking ticket ownership requires that you are 
> either a member of the organization or have commented on the ticket, which 
> makes the process there a little longer.
>
> - Ticket history, as mentioned (we'd need to preserve ticket numbers and 
> redirect links from the current domain).
>
> Exporting from GitHub seems very possible - exporting pull requests and 
> issues can both be done via the API, though this does, like the bot, need 
> extra work.
>
> This all seems eminently doable, but the question I'd really want everyone 
> to answer is if it's worth the porting effort. I suspect the answer is yes, 
> but this does need a process DEP and some discussion, and maybe also 
> looking at what cpython are doing and comparing and contrasting.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:12 AM Carlton Gibson  > wrote:
>
>> The more I use Trac, the more I appreciate its power. I'm normally all 
>> for Progress™ but I'm not sure GitHub's UI is up to it. 
>> (Being able to find the old discussion is super handy: it's not that 
>> often that an idea has not come up before at this stage.) 
>>
>> *I'd be interested to see what a prototype export looks like in a test 
>> GitHub repo. Maybe it's possible... (Note this is in bold.)*
>>
>> Maybe more people would participate, but I'm not sure... Do we just 
>> suspect that? I worry we go to a load of effort for no real gain. 
>>
>> Current input is quite good I'd say. Claude and Simon are regulars. 
>> There's a good number more who make frequent appearances. 
>> I think there's more people commenting than we suspect. (Anyone trying 
>> the export would be able to do numbers I'd guess...)
>>
>> If the new Triaging role on GH would allow "Request a review..." I think 
>> it would be super handy. (But currently that's restricted to the more 
>> powerful roles.) (I'm nagging GH about as best I can but if anyone knows 
>> anyone...)
>>
>> Happy to comment more if people want, but those are the highlights. 
>>
>> C.
>>
>> On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 12:56:18 UTC+2, Josh Smeaton wrote:
>>>
>>> Mariatta has put together a some PEPs for migrating CPython issues over 
>>> to GitHub.
>>>
>>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/ proposing the migration.
>>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/ migration plan.
>>>
>>> Django and Cpython are not the same, so there'll be substantial 
>>> differences. But it's worth familiarising oneself with prior art.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth I'd strongly support such a move just for the 
>>> increase in engagement.
>>>
>>> Carlton, Mariusz, how would you gauge the level of triage activity in 
>>> Trac from non-core members? High/Medium/Low?
>>>
>>> https://github.blog/changelog/2019-05-23-triage-and-maintain-roles-beta/ 
>>> describes 
>>> the new triage and maintain roles, but they're still to be granted to 
>>> trusted individuals (which would be an excellent gateway into full core 
>>> membership if that is the direction Django is going to continue in).
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 17:46:18 UTC+10, John Gooding wrote:

 Hi Aymeric,

 You bring up a lot of good points. There will undoubtedly be challenges 
 and huge amount of work in moving to a new system, or implementing any big 
 sweeping changes, however, I truly honestly believe that it would be worth 
 it in the long run, and the payoff would far outweigh the cost.

 As far as Microsoft owning github, etc I think it is almost moot. Any 
 process will have some amount of vendor lock in, whether github, atlassian 
 (jira & bitbucket parent company), or even gitlab. I think what is 
 important is to 

Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread Andrew Godwin
We actually discussed this a little at the PyCon AU sprints and the
consensus was that GitHub issues would be great *if only they were a bit
more featureful*.

The problems I feel are specifically an issue:

- Ticket states; this is not easily replicated with labels, while
components etc. are mapped slightly more easily

- Assignment of tickets to people outside the organisation - while bots
allow triage, I believe taking ticket ownership requires that you are
either a member of the organization or have commented on the ticket, which
makes the process there a little longer.

- Ticket history, as mentioned (we'd need to preserve ticket numbers and
redirect links from the current domain).

Exporting from GitHub seems very possible - exporting pull requests and
issues can both be done via the API, though this does, like the bot, need
extra work.

This all seems eminently doable, but the question I'd really want everyone
to answer is if it's worth the porting effort. I suspect the answer is yes,
but this does need a process DEP and some discussion, and maybe also
looking at what cpython are doing and comparing and contrasting.

Andrew

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 4:12 AM Carlton Gibson 
wrote:

> The more I use Trac, the more I appreciate its power. I'm normally all for
> Progress™ but I'm not sure GitHub's UI is up to it.
> (Being able to find the old discussion is super handy: it's not that often
> that an idea has not come up before at this stage.)
>
> *I'd be interested to see what a prototype export looks like in a test
> GitHub repo. Maybe it's possible... (Note this is in bold.)*
>
> Maybe more people would participate, but I'm not sure... Do we just
> suspect that? I worry we go to a load of effort for no real gain.
>
> Current input is quite good I'd say. Claude and Simon are regulars.
> There's a good number more who make frequent appearances.
> I think there's more people commenting than we suspect. (Anyone trying the
> export would be able to do numbers I'd guess...)
>
> If the new Triaging role on GH would allow "Request a review..." I think
> it would be super handy. (But currently that's restricted to the more
> powerful roles.) (I'm nagging GH about as best I can but if anyone knows
> anyone...)
>
> Happy to comment more if people want, but those are the highlights.
>
> C.
>
> On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 12:56:18 UTC+2, Josh Smeaton wrote:
>>
>> Mariatta has put together a some PEPs for migrating CPython issues over
>> to GitHub.
>>
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/ proposing the migration.
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/ migration plan.
>>
>> Django and Cpython are not the same, so there'll be substantial
>> differences. But it's worth familiarising oneself with prior art.
>>
>> For what it's worth I'd strongly support such a move just for the
>> increase in engagement.
>>
>> Carlton, Mariusz, how would you gauge the level of triage activity in
>> Trac from non-core members? High/Medium/Low?
>>
>> https://github.blog/changelog/2019-05-23-triage-and-maintain-roles-beta/ 
>> describes
>> the new triage and maintain roles, but they're still to be granted to
>> trusted individuals (which would be an excellent gateway into full core
>> membership if that is the direction Django is going to continue in).
>>
>> On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 17:46:18 UTC+10, John Gooding wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Aymeric,
>>>
>>> You bring up a lot of good points. There will undoubtedly be challenges
>>> and huge amount of work in moving to a new system, or implementing any big
>>> sweeping changes, however, I truly honestly believe that it would be worth
>>> it in the long run, and the payoff would far outweigh the cost.
>>>
>>> As far as Microsoft owning github, etc I think it is almost moot. Any
>>> process will have some amount of vendor lock in, whether github, atlassian
>>> (jira & bitbucket parent company), or even gitlab. I think what is
>>> important is to pick one system as a community that we are happy with. Any
>>> one of those three could do what is ultimately needed, which is a
>>> centralized and consistent development platform.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:33:59 AM UTC-7, Aymeric Augustin
>>> wrote:

 Hello John,

 This was discussed before, when we moved from self-hosted svn to
 GitHub-hosted git, but I'm not sure there are public archives of all
 discussions.

 As far as I remember, the main points to tackle are:

 1. Does GitHub allow "anonymous triage" i.e. labelling, closing, and
 reopening issues by non-committers? I think there was a recent announcement
 in this area. I didn't check the details. Previously, bot-powered
 workarounds were suggested, but they wouldn't provide a good user
 experience. You want discoverable buttons, not a cheat sheet of magic
 comments.

 2. Does the GitHub UI scale to thousands of issues? In theory, any
 classification system can be reproduced with namespaced labels e.g.

Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread Carlton Gibson
The more I use Trac, the more I appreciate its power. I'm normally all for 
Progress™ but I'm not sure GitHub's UI is up to it. 
(Being able to find the old discussion is super handy: it's not that often 
that an idea has not come up before at this stage.) 

*I'd be interested to see what a prototype export looks like in a test 
GitHub repo. Maybe it's possible... (Note this is in bold.)*

Maybe more people would participate, but I'm not sure... Do we just suspect 
that? I worry we go to a load of effort for no real gain. 

Current input is quite good I'd say. Claude and Simon are regulars. There's 
a good number more who make frequent appearances. 
I think there's more people commenting than we suspect. (Anyone trying the 
export would be able to do numbers I'd guess...)

If the new Triaging role on GH would allow "Request a review..." I think it 
would be super handy. (But currently that's restricted to the more powerful 
roles.) (I'm nagging GH about as best I can but if anyone knows anyone...)

Happy to comment more if people want, but those are the highlights. 

C.

On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 12:56:18 UTC+2, Josh Smeaton wrote:
>
> Mariatta has put together a some PEPs for migrating CPython issues over to 
> GitHub.
>
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/ proposing the migration.
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/ migration plan.
>
> Django and Cpython are not the same, so there'll be substantial 
> differences. But it's worth familiarising oneself with prior art.
>
> For what it's worth I'd strongly support such a move just for the increase 
> in engagement.
>
> Carlton, Mariusz, how would you gauge the level of triage activity in Trac 
> from non-core members? High/Medium/Low?
>
> https://github.blog/changelog/2019-05-23-triage-and-maintain-roles-beta/ 
> describes 
> the new triage and maintain roles, but they're still to be granted to 
> trusted individuals (which would be an excellent gateway into full core 
> membership if that is the direction Django is going to continue in).
>
> On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 17:46:18 UTC+10, John Gooding wrote:
>>
>> Hi Aymeric,
>>
>> You bring up a lot of good points. There will undoubtedly be challenges 
>> and huge amount of work in moving to a new system, or implementing any big 
>> sweeping changes, however, I truly honestly believe that it would be worth 
>> it in the long run, and the payoff would far outweigh the cost.
>>
>> As far as Microsoft owning github, etc I think it is almost moot. Any 
>> process will have some amount of vendor lock in, whether github, atlassian 
>> (jira & bitbucket parent company), or even gitlab. I think what is 
>> important is to pick one system as a community that we are happy with. Any 
>> one of those three could do what is ultimately needed, which is a 
>> centralized and consistent development platform.
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:33:59 AM UTC-7, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello John,
>>>
>>> This was discussed before, when we moved from self-hosted svn to 
>>> GitHub-hosted git, but I'm not sure there are public archives of all 
>>> discussions.
>>>
>>> As far as I remember, the main points to tackle are:
>>>
>>> 1. Does GitHub allow "anonymous triage" i.e. labelling, closing, and 
>>> reopening issues by non-committers? I think there was a recent announcement 
>>> in this area. I didn't check the details. Previously, bot-powered 
>>> workarounds were suggested, but they wouldn't provide a good user 
>>> experience. You want discoverable buttons, not a cheat sheet of magic 
>>> comments.
>>>
>>> 2. Does the GitHub UI scale to thousands of issues? In theory, any 
>>> classification system can be reproduced with namespaced labels e.g. 
>>> "component:ORM", "status:ready-for-checkin", etc. In practice, it's 
>>> unlikely to be as convenient as what currently exists on Trac.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's just me, but I always found GitHub issues hard to use when 
>>> I had more than on page of issues. Indeed, at that point, I need a 
>>> labelling system to filter issues. Then I need to keep all the rules of 
>>> that system in my head instead of having the UI guide me — and prevent me 
>>> from infringing the system...
>>>
>>> 3. How do we migrate issues history from Trac to GitHub? Preserving 
>>> comment authorship doesn't seem obvious, especially for authors who don't 
>>> have the same username on Trac and GitHub or authors who don't have a 
>>> GitHub account.
>>>
>>> Initially an effort was made to sync usernames of core devs between Trac 
>>> and GitHub to prevent security problems but that's a small subset of 
>>> contributors.
>>>
>>> 4. Are we still able to export everything from GitHub and move on to the 
>>> next thing? Perhaps there's an obvious answer. I didn't look. Usually 
>>> Django takes a pragmatic position: we won't reject GitHub outright because 
>>> it isn't open source. However, we wouldn't want to lock ourselves into a 
>>> platform we don't control.
>>>
>>> Who would 

Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread Josh Smeaton
Mariatta has put together a some PEPs for migrating CPython issues over to 
GitHub.

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/ proposing the migration.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/ migration plan.

Django and Cpython are not the same, so there'll be substantial 
differences. But it's worth familiarising oneself with prior art.

For what it's worth I'd strongly support such a move just for the increase 
in engagement.

Carlton, Mariusz, how would you gauge the level of triage activity in Trac 
from non-core members? High/Medium/Low?

https://github.blog/changelog/2019-05-23-triage-and-maintain-roles-beta/ 
describes 
the new triage and maintain roles, but they're still to be granted to 
trusted individuals (which would be an excellent gateway into full core 
membership if that is the direction Django is going to continue in).

On Wednesday, 7 August 2019 17:46:18 UTC+10, John Gooding wrote:
>
> Hi Aymeric,
>
> You bring up a lot of good points. There will undoubtedly be challenges 
> and huge amount of work in moving to a new system, or implementing any big 
> sweeping changes, however, I truly honestly believe that it would be worth 
> it in the long run, and the payoff would far outweigh the cost.
>
> As far as Microsoft owning github, etc I think it is almost moot. Any 
> process will have some amount of vendor lock in, whether github, atlassian 
> (jira & bitbucket parent company), or even gitlab. I think what is 
> important is to pick one system as a community that we are happy with. Any 
> one of those three could do what is ultimately needed, which is a 
> centralized and consistent development platform.
>
> On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:33:59 AM UTC-7, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>
>> Hello John,
>>
>> This was discussed before, when we moved from self-hosted svn to 
>> GitHub-hosted git, but I'm not sure there are public archives of all 
>> discussions.
>>
>> As far as I remember, the main points to tackle are:
>>
>> 1. Does GitHub allow "anonymous triage" i.e. labelling, closing, and 
>> reopening issues by non-committers? I think there was a recent announcement 
>> in this area. I didn't check the details. Previously, bot-powered 
>> workarounds were suggested, but they wouldn't provide a good user 
>> experience. You want discoverable buttons, not a cheat sheet of magic 
>> comments.
>>
>> 2. Does the GitHub UI scale to thousands of issues? In theory, any 
>> classification system can be reproduced with namespaced labels e.g. 
>> "component:ORM", "status:ready-for-checkin", etc. In practice, it's 
>> unlikely to be as convenient as what currently exists on Trac.
>>
>> Perhaps it's just me, but I always found GitHub issues hard to use when I 
>> had more than on page of issues. Indeed, at that point, I need a labelling 
>> system to filter issues. Then I need to keep all the rules of that system 
>> in my head instead of having the UI guide me — and prevent me from 
>> infringing the system...
>>
>> 3. How do we migrate issues history from Trac to GitHub? Preserving 
>> comment authorship doesn't seem obvious, especially for authors who don't 
>> have the same username on Trac and GitHub or authors who don't have a 
>> GitHub account.
>>
>> Initially an effort was made to sync usernames of core devs between Trac 
>> and GitHub to prevent security problems but that's a small subset of 
>> contributors.
>>
>> 4. Are we still able to export everything from GitHub and move on to the 
>> next thing? Perhaps there's an obvious answer. I didn't look. Usually 
>> Django takes a pragmatic position: we won't reject GitHub outright because 
>> it isn't open source. However, we wouldn't want to lock ourselves into a 
>> platform we don't control.
>>
>> Who would have bet, three years ago, that GitHub would be the property of 
>> Microsoft today? What if Microsoft sells it to Oracle in three years? It's 
>> nice to keep our options open :-)
>>
>> We put the code there because we were confident that we could pull the 
>> git history. Then everyone started using pull requests, which was likely a 
>> good thing, but wasn't really planned or thought through, and I don't think 
>> we can export PR comments meaningfully. GitHub did some good vendor lock in 
>> there.
>>
>> 5. How do we preserve links to SVN commits? Currently, they're redirected 
>> on https://code.djangoproject.com/ with this nginx rule:
>>
>> rewrite ^/changeset/(\d+)/?$ 
>> https://www.djangoproject.com/svntogit/$1/ permanent;
>>
>> and then redirected again by this application:
>>
>> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/tree/master/svntogit
>>
>> It would be nice to preserve these links in issues copied from Trac to 
>> GitHub, which probably means pre-processing comments to rewrite links.
>>
>> There may be more, but that's what comes to mind!
>>
>> A process DEP 
>> 
>>  is 
>> the way to go to propose this change.
>>
>> Best 

Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread John Gooding
Hi Aymeric,

You bring up a lot of good points. There will undoubtedly be challenges and 
huge amount of work in moving to a new system, or implementing any big 
sweeping changes, however, I truly honestly believe that it would be worth 
it in the long run, and the payoff would far outweigh the cost.

As far as Microsoft owning github, etc I think it is almost moot. Any 
process will have some amount of vendor lock in, whether github, atlassian 
(jira & bitbucket parent company), or even gitlab. I think what is 
important is to pick one system as a community that we are happy with. Any 
one of those three could do what is ultimately needed, which is a 
centralized and consistent development platform.

On Wednesday, August 7, 2019 at 12:33:59 AM UTC-7, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>
> Hello John,
>
> This was discussed before, when we moved from self-hosted svn to 
> GitHub-hosted git, but I'm not sure there are public archives of all 
> discussions.
>
> As far as I remember, the main points to tackle are:
>
> 1. Does GitHub allow "anonymous triage" i.e. labelling, closing, and 
> reopening issues by non-committers? I think there was a recent announcement 
> in this area. I didn't check the details. Previously, bot-powered 
> workarounds were suggested, but they wouldn't provide a good user 
> experience. You want discoverable buttons, not a cheat sheet of magic 
> comments.
>
> 2. Does the GitHub UI scale to thousands of issues? In theory, any 
> classification system can be reproduced with namespaced labels e.g. 
> "component:ORM", "status:ready-for-checkin", etc. In practice, it's 
> unlikely to be as convenient as what currently exists on Trac.
>
> Perhaps it's just me, but I always found GitHub issues hard to use when I 
> had more than on page of issues. Indeed, at that point, I need a labelling 
> system to filter issues. Then I need to keep all the rules of that system 
> in my head instead of having the UI guide me — and prevent me from 
> infringing the system...
>
> 3. How do we migrate issues history from Trac to GitHub? Preserving 
> comment authorship doesn't seem obvious, especially for authors who don't 
> have the same username on Trac and GitHub or authors who don't have a 
> GitHub account.
>
> Initially an effort was made to sync usernames of core devs between Trac 
> and GitHub to prevent security problems but that's a small subset of 
> contributors.
>
> 4. Are we still able to export everything from GitHub and move on to the 
> next thing? Perhaps there's an obvious answer. I didn't look. Usually 
> Django takes a pragmatic position: we won't reject GitHub outright because 
> it isn't open source. However, we wouldn't want to lock ourselves into a 
> platform we don't control.
>
> Who would have bet, three years ago, that GitHub would be the property of 
> Microsoft today? What if Microsoft sells it to Oracle in three years? It's 
> nice to keep our options open :-)
>
> We put the code there because we were confident that we could pull the git 
> history. Then everyone started using pull requests, which was likely a good 
> thing, but wasn't really planned or thought through, and I don't think we 
> can export PR comments meaningfully. GitHub did some good vendor lock in 
> there.
>
> 5. How do we preserve links to SVN commits? Currently, they're redirected 
> on https://code.djangoproject.com/ with this nginx rule:
>
> rewrite ^/changeset/(\d+)/?$ 
> https://www.djangoproject.com/svntogit/$1/ permanent;
>
> and then redirected again by this application:
>
> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/tree/master/svntogit
>
> It would be nice to preserve these links in issues copied from Trac to 
> GitHub, which probably means pre-processing comments to rewrite links.
>
> There may be more, but that's what comes to mind!
>
> A process DEP 
> 
>  is 
> the way to go to propose this change.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -- 
> Aymeric.
>
>
>
> On 7 Aug 2019, at 08:24, John Gooding > 
> wrote:
>
> I'd like to propose moving Django issues to github and make a real 
> decision on it here in this thread. If there has been a recent discussion 
> on this I apologize, but searching for issue tracking / github links to 
> about every thread ever posted here.
>
> I believe this would lower the barrier to entry and to help promote 
> community involvement. People are already there, people already use it, and 
> we already do pull requests there. Now I could be wrong here, but I also 
> feel that it would improve and promote discussion about changes and feature 
> additions to Django, because right now they are pretty hidden away in the 
> current system. 
>
> I'd also like to see the inclusion of a "discussion" label or similar for 
> issues. I think many of the conversations here on this forum would be much 
> better off as github issues. I see a lot of great stuff, and it's not clear 
> at all what the status is, has it 

Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread John Gooding
To put it short, the barrier to entry is far too high and difficult for 
newcomers and even long time users of Django. 

I agree with others sentiment that there isn't anything that trac can do 
which github issues cannot, especially for the overwhelming majority of 
tickets. As a long time user of Django myself, I agree with Andrew Godwins 
statement on Django loosing many contributors over the years and being in 
largely maintenance mode. 

I believe this has contributed significantly to the current culture that 
things are fine as a third party application and that most big new features 
or additions are simply too difficult, or not worth the effort etc. There 
is very much a culture of "it can't be, or wont be done", and is quite 
pessimistic. That's simply one point of my assessment about the current 
culture, and isn't meant to be derogatory towards the current contributors 
and the fine work they are doing.

I agree that something like django-async, big, bold, new features are 
exactly what Django needs to get new people on board and actively 
participating in the project. The barrier to that should be as low as 
possible, and the entire development process should be as consolidated, 
clear, and accessible as possible. That's why I think moving the majority 
of this forum and trac to github issues is the right move.

For a couple of recent-ish background posts that discuss much of this:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/aiyE__qSHBY/discussion

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/django-developers/5CVsR9FSqmg/qKD3QCrLCAAJ

On Tuesday, August 6, 2019 at 11:24:45 PM UTC-7, John Gooding wrote:
>
> I'd like to propose moving Django issues to github and make a real 
> decision on it here in this thread. If there has been a recent discussion 
> on this I apologize, but searching for issue tracking / github links to 
> about every thread ever posted here.
>
> I believe this would lower the barrier to entry and to help promote 
> community involvement. People are already there, people already use it, and 
> we already do pull requests there. Now I could be wrong here, but I also 
> feel that it would improve and promote discussion about changes and feature 
> additions to Django, because right now they are pretty hidden away in the 
> current system. 
>
> I'd also like to see the inclusion of a "discussion" label or similar for 
> issues. I think many of the conversations here on this forum would be much 
> better off as github issues. I see a lot of great stuff, and it's not clear 
> at all what the status is, has it moved forward, been officially denied? 
> etc. If they are github issues they will have definitive resolutions, 
> whatever it may be, and links to relevant code, PR's etc if needed.
>
> I think there is a huge amount to gain by consolidating the ticket system 
> and many of the discussions on this forum into github's issue tracker. I 
> don't see any reason why it wouldn't be wroth the effort, and we only have 
> much to gain as a community from it. But that's just my 2 cents. I'd love 
> to hear what others think, for or against it.
>
> John
>
>
>

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Re: Make Development More Accessible

2019-08-07 Thread Aymeric Augustin
Hello John,

This was discussed before, when we moved from self-hosted svn to GitHub-hosted 
git, but I'm not sure there are public archives of all discussions.

As far as I remember, the main points to tackle are:

1. Does GitHub allow "anonymous triage" i.e. labelling, closing, and reopening 
issues by non-committers? I think there was a recent announcement in this area. 
I didn't check the details. Previously, bot-powered workarounds were suggested, 
but they wouldn't provide a good user experience. You want discoverable 
buttons, not a cheat sheet of magic comments.

2. Does the GitHub UI scale to thousands of issues? In theory, any 
classification system can be reproduced with namespaced labels e.g. 
"component:ORM", "status:ready-for-checkin", etc. In practice, it's unlikely to 
be as convenient as what currently exists on Trac.

Perhaps it's just me, but I always found GitHub issues hard to use when I had 
more than on page of issues. Indeed, at that point, I need a labelling system 
to filter issues. Then I need to keep all the rules of that system in my head 
instead of having the UI guide me — and prevent me from infringing the system...

3. How do we migrate issues history from Trac to GitHub? Preserving comment 
authorship doesn't seem obvious, especially for authors who don't have the same 
username on Trac and GitHub or authors who don't have a GitHub account.

Initially an effort was made to sync usernames of core devs between Trac and 
GitHub to prevent security problems but that's a small subset of contributors.

4. Are we still able to export everything from GitHub and move on to the next 
thing? Perhaps there's an obvious answer. I didn't look. Usually Django takes a 
pragmatic position: we won't reject GitHub outright because it isn't open 
source. However, we wouldn't want to lock ourselves into a platform we don't 
control.

Who would have bet, three years ago, that GitHub would be the property of 
Microsoft today? What if Microsoft sells it to Oracle in three years? It's nice 
to keep our options open :-)

We put the code there because we were confident that we could pull the git 
history. Then everyone started using pull requests, which was likely a good 
thing, but wasn't really planned or thought through, and I don't think we can 
export PR comments meaningfully. GitHub did some good vendor lock in there.

5. How do we preserve links to SVN commits? Currently, they're redirected on 
https://code.djangoproject.com/ with this nginx rule:

rewrite ^/changeset/(\d+)/?$ https://www.djangoproject.com/svntogit/$1/ 
permanent;

and then redirected again by this application:

https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/tree/master/svntogit

It would be nice to preserve these links in issues copied from Trac to GitHub, 
which probably means pre-processing comments to rewrite links.

There may be more, but that's what comes to mind!

A process DEP 

 is the way to go to propose this change.

Best regards,

-- 
Aymeric.



> On 7 Aug 2019, at 08:24, John Gooding  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to propose moving Django issues to github and make a real decision 
> on it here in this thread. If there has been a recent discussion on this I 
> apologize, but searching for issue tracking / github links to about every 
> thread ever posted here.
> 
> I believe this would lower the barrier to entry and to help promote community 
> involvement. People are already there, people already use it, and we already 
> do pull requests there. Now I could be wrong here, but I also feel that it 
> would improve and promote discussion about changes and feature additions to 
> Django, because right now they are pretty hidden away in the current system. 
> 
> I'd also like to see the inclusion of a "discussion" label or similar for 
> issues. I think many of the conversations here on this forum would be much 
> better off as github issues. I see a lot of great stuff, and it's not clear 
> at all what the status is, has it moved forward, been officially denied? etc. 
> If they are github issues they will have definitive resolutions, whatever it 
> may be, and links to relevant code, PR's etc if needed.
> 
> I think there is a huge amount to gain by consolidating the ticket system and 
> many of the discussions on this forum into github's issue tracker. I don't 
> see any reason why it wouldn't be wroth the effort, and we only have much to 
> gain as a community from it. But that's just my 2 cents. I'd love to hear 
> what others think, for or against it.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on