Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-13 Thread Andrew Godwin
Another point has been raised to me by someone off-list - adding a forum
would significantly increase the surface area that the Code of Conduct team
have to cover (and potentially become one of the biggest time sinks
required), so we need to consider them in any decision.

Andrew

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 10:10 PM Andrew Godwin  wrote:

> I agree James - forums tend to age slightly worse than mailing lists for
> archival content, but I'm hoping the improved experience in the moment
> makes up for it.
>
> Plus, our current mailing list archive depends on a service from Google,
> and I trust those less these days (though I hope Google Groups is probably
> going to be around for a long time).
>
> Andrew
>
> On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:04:23 AM UTC-5, James Bennett wrote:
>>
>> I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the
>> long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as
>> a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that
>> purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as,
>> say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-12 Thread Andrew Godwin
I agree James - forums tend to age slightly worse than mailing lists for 
archival content, but I'm hoping the improved experience in the moment 
makes up for it.

Plus, our current mailing list archive depends on a service from Google, 
and I trust those less these days (though I hope Google Groups is probably 
going to be around for a long time).

Andrew

On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:04:23 AM UTC-5, James Bennett wrote:
>
> I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the 
> long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as 
> a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that 
> purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as, 
> say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.
>

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-12 Thread Lee Trout
I’ve moderated a couple small-medium forums (2k-8k) members as well as
participated in many online.

I am in favor of moving to a forum system for a lot of reasons. I’d be
curious who would be the community manager(s) (not moderators per se) and
if the tone would be similar to the docs and wiki or closer to the IRC
channel and a bit relaxed. It is potentially an opportunity to curate a lot
of great community information similar to the PyCoders newsletter with
advanced tutorials, QA on popular third party libs like storages or getting
started with the  cookiecutter layout.

I agree with James- it will take a moderation team and some manual work to
keep it moving smoothly.

I know PHPBB is the de facto board system but I’ll toss out a hat tip to
XenForo.com. It’s in use for Advrider.com and performs very well.

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Bennett  wrote:

> I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the
> long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as
> a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that
> purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as,
> say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-12 Thread James Bennett
I'm not necessarily opposed to this, but I am a bit skeptical of the
long-term archival utility of forums, in large part due to my experience as
a moderator of some decent-sized ones. I think making them useful for that
purpose is going to require about the same level of manual curation as,
say, the wiki on code.djangoproject.com does now.

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Andrew Godwin
On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:30 AM Carlton Gibson 
wrote:

> What does it need from Ops? (Is there a `docker run-my-service`? Could we
> leverage djangoproject.com (and GitHub) logins, or are they always going
> to be separate?)
>

Markus has done more investigation on how to run it, though my impression
is that it's relatively easy since he had it up before I'd got off the
plane back to the US. Not sure about the djangoproject.com login situation
- we need to investigate how flexible the plugin system is, and it might
need OpenID on the Django end.

Andrew

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread gaurav jain
This sounds good to me, plus this can be a all in one django spot for
django developer specially new developer


On Sat, 10 Aug, 2019, 8:33 AM Andrew Godwin,  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we
> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>
> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for
> new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
> interaction.
>
> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust
> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to
> watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>
> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I
> feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for
> accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for
> new contributors.
>
> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>
> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
> anonymisation of prior content.
>
> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>
> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's
> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting
> with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based
> workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have
> it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login
> rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that
> Rust seems quite happy with it.
>
> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>
> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but
> maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Fran Hrženjak
Just skimming this mailing list occasionally, I find pretty comical all
those "I think you found the wrong mailing list" replies. Not that there is
anything wrong with that, what else can one do? Just imho any new
communication channel should have a way of moving messages to a correct
place. Maybe near the top of the list of requirements :D

-- 
Fran


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:02 PM Adam Johnson  wrote:

> I'm up for a forum. I started replying on mailing lists because that's
> what there is, but it does get pretty messy and single thread driven.
>
> PHPBB anyone? Shame there isn't a mature Django based forum (that I know
> of).
>
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 11:30, Carlton Gibson 
> wrote:
>
>> I've thought about this sort of thing a few times. My concern has always
>> been that it'd be "just one more channel" when there are already too many
>> to follow: here, django-users, IRC (multiple channels) and so on.
>>
>> If we did it under the aegis of the Django (Org/...SF) and we as a group
>> of active folks said that that's where we'd hang out, I think it would
>> work, and would unify those channels. So +1
>>
>> What does it need from Ops? (Is there a `docker run-my-service`? Could we
>> leverage djangoproject.com (and GitHub) logins, or are they always going
>> to be separate?)
>>
>> Super.
>> Carlton
>>
>> On Saturday, 10 August 2019 05:03:18 UTC+2, Andrew Godwin wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that
>>> we have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
>>> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>>>
>>> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible
>>> for new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
>>> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
>>> interaction.
>>>
>>> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the
>>> Rust community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you
>>> to watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
>>> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
>>> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but
>>> I feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface
>>> for accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad
>>> for new contributors.
>>>
>>> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
>>> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
>>> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
>>> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
>>> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>>>
>>> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
>>> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
>>> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
>>> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
>>> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
>>> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
>>> anonymisation of prior content.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
>>> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
>>> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
>>> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
>>> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>>>
>>> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project,
>>> it's also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and
>>> interacting with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an
>>> email-based workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the
>>> option to have it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use
>>> GitHub for login rather than requiring a separate username and password. It
>>> also helps that Rust seems quite happy with it.
>>>
>>> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
>>> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
>>> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
>>> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>>>
>>> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term,
>>> but maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
>>> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
>>> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
>>> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
>>> also recognise that 

Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Aymeric Augustin
Hello,

I'm in favor of trying Discourse.

-- 
Aymeric.



> On 10 Aug 2019, at 05:03, Andrew Godwin  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we 
> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user 
> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
> 
> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for new 
> users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away problematic 
> posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based interaction.
> 
> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust 
> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham 
> ). I invite you to watch the full talk if you 
> are at all interested in how another language handles their community 
> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0 
> ), but the takeaway for me was 
> their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
> 
> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I 
> feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for 
> accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for new 
> contributors.
> 
> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring async 
> into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing lists 
> would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in specific 
> discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have those 
> discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
> 
> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as allowing 
> things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a living header 
> on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent removal of things 
> that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it also allows people to 
> post without their email being public, allows for name changes, and provides 
> for someone's right to be forgotten via anonymisation of prior content.
> 
> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or anything 
> like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a test, and 
> use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as anything 
> else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that anything 
> important still goes out to this mailing list.
> 
> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's 
> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting with 
> the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based workflow. There 
> are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have it hosted for us 
> via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login rather than 
> requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that Rust seems 
> quite happy with it.
> 
> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we get 
> some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If there 
> are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their alternative 
> suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
> 
> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but 
> maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would interact 
> with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe to certain 
> topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter as I do 
> now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I also 
> recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an 
> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
> 
> Thanks,
> Andrew
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAFwN1urJmpwTYqXSF_L57hDLL5-9T4Bkvj9Sb9p8na_-_YWEgA%40mail.gmail.com
>  
> .

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread אורי
It would be funny if the Django developers forum will use phpBB...

אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 4:02 PM Adam Johnson  wrote:

> I'm up for a forum. I started replying on mailing lists because that's
> what there is, but it does get pretty messy and single thread driven.
>
> PHPBB anyone? Shame there isn't a mature Django based forum (that I know
> of).
>
> On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 11:30, Carlton Gibson 
> wrote:
>
>> I've thought about this sort of thing a few times. My concern has always
>> been that it'd be "just one more channel" when there are already too many
>> to follow: here, django-users, IRC (multiple channels) and so on.
>>
>> If we did it under the aegis of the Django (Org/...SF) and we as a group
>> of active folks said that that's where we'd hang out, I think it would
>> work, and would unify those channels. So +1
>>
>> What does it need from Ops? (Is there a `docker run-my-service`? Could we
>> leverage djangoproject.com (and GitHub) logins, or are they always going
>> to be separate?)
>>
>> Super.
>> Carlton
>>
>> On Saturday, 10 August 2019 05:03:18 UTC+2, Andrew Godwin wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that
>>> we have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
>>> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>>>
>>> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible
>>> for new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
>>> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
>>> interaction.
>>>
>>> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the
>>> Rust community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you
>>> to watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
>>> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
>>> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>>>
>>> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but
>>> I feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface
>>> for accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad
>>> for new contributors.
>>>
>>> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
>>> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
>>> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
>>> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
>>> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>>>
>>> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
>>> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
>>> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
>>> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
>>> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
>>> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
>>> anonymisation of prior content.
>>>
>>> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
>>> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
>>> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
>>> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
>>> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>>>
>>> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project,
>>> it's also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and
>>> interacting with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an
>>> email-based workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the
>>> option to have it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use
>>> GitHub for login rather than requiring a separate username and password. It
>>> also helps that Rust seems quite happy with it.
>>>
>>> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
>>> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
>>> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
>>> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>>>
>>> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term,
>>> but maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
>>> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
>>> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
>>> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
>>> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
>>> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andrew
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Django developers (Contributions to 

Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Adam Johnson
I'm up for a forum. I started replying on mailing lists because that's what
there is, but it does get pretty messy and single thread driven.

PHPBB anyone? Shame there isn't a mature Django based forum (that I know
of).

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 11:30, Carlton Gibson 
wrote:

> I've thought about this sort of thing a few times. My concern has always
> been that it'd be "just one more channel" when there are already too many
> to follow: here, django-users, IRC (multiple channels) and so on.
>
> If we did it under the aegis of the Django (Org/...SF) and we as a group
> of active folks said that that's where we'd hang out, I think it would
> work, and would unify those channels. So +1
>
> What does it need from Ops? (Is there a `docker run-my-service`? Could we
> leverage djangoproject.com (and GitHub) logins, or are they always going
> to be separate?)
>
> Super.
> Carlton
>
> On Saturday, 10 August 2019 05:03:18 UTC+2, Andrew Godwin wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we
>> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
>> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>>
>> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for
>> new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
>> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
>> interaction.
>>
>> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust
>> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to
>> watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
>> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
>> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>>
>> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but
>> I feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface
>> for accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad
>> for new contributors.
>>
>> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
>> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
>> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
>> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
>> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>>
>> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
>> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
>> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
>> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
>> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
>> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
>> anonymisation of prior content.
>>
>> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
>> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
>> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
>> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
>> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>>
>> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's
>> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting
>> with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based
>> workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have
>> it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login
>> rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that
>> Rust seems quite happy with it.
>>
>> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
>> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
>> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
>> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>>
>> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term,
>> but maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
>> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
>> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
>> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
>> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
>> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew
>>
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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Carlton Gibson
I've thought about this sort of thing a few times. My concern has always 
been that it'd be "just one more channel" when there are already too many 
to follow: here, django-users, IRC (multiple channels) and so on. 

If we did it under the aegis of the Django (Org/...SF) and we as a group of 
active folks said that that's where we'd hang out, I think it would work, 
and would unify those channels. So +1

What does it need from Ops? (Is there a `docker run-my-service`? Could we 
leverage djangoproject.com (and GitHub) logins, or are they always going to 
be separate?)

Super. 
Carlton

On Saturday, 10 August 2019 05:03:18 UTC+2, Andrew Godwin wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we 
> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user 
> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>
> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for 
> new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away 
> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based 
> interaction.
>
> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust 
> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to 
> watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language 
> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0), 
> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>
> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I 
> feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for 
> accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for 
> new contributors.
>
> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring 
> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing 
> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in 
> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have 
> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>
> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as 
> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a 
> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent 
> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it 
> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for 
> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via 
> anonymisation of prior content.
>
> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or 
> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a 
> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as 
> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that 
> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>
> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's 
> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting 
> with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based 
> workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have 
> it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login 
> rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that 
> Rust seems quite happy with it.
>
> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we 
> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If 
> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their 
> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>
> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but 
> maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would 
> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe 
> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter 
> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I 
> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an 
> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-10 Thread Markus Holtermann
Thank you for bringing up the idea, Andrew.

As expressed at PyCon AU, I'd be interested in giving an alternative to a 
mailing list a shot. Something that supports subscribing to topics sounds like 
a good idea to overcome the amount of mails one may not be interested in.

Cheers, Markus


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019, at 3:30 PM, Andrew Godwin wrote:
> ‪On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:16 PM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬
> > Every Google Group also has an online forum:
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-developers
> 
> Indeed, I am aware of this, I usually use it when I link threads on Twitter.
> 
> However, it is not really a forum in the sense I am describing - one 
> that has categories, editable posts, and the ability to selectively get 
> email for certain categories or threads rather than all-or-nothing. The 
> Groups forum interface is more just an online mailing list interface, 
> with all the problems of the underlying list model.
> 
> Andrew
> 
>  -- 
>  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>  
> .

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-09 Thread Andrew Godwin
‪On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:16 PM ‫אורי‬‎  wrote:‬

> Every Google Group also has an online forum:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-developers
>

Indeed, I am aware of this, I usually use it when I link threads on Twitter.

However, it is not really a forum in the sense I am describing - one that
has categories, editable posts, and the ability to selectively get email
for certain categories or threads rather than all-or-nothing. The Groups
forum interface is more just an online mailing list interface, with all the
problems of the underlying list model.

Andrew

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Re: Proposing development discussion forums

2019-08-09 Thread אורי
Every Google Group also has an online forum:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-developers
אורי
u...@speedy.net


On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 6:03 AM Andrew Godwin  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> This might be slightly controversial, but I would like to propose that we
> have a forum for discussing Django development (and potentially user
> support), alongside the mailing list and maybe, eventually replacing it.
>
> My full reasoning is below, but in short, it would be more accessible for
> new users, have a better UI, give us the ability to moderate away
> problematic posts, be better for privacy, and still allow email-based
> interaction.
>
> At DjangoCon AU, the opening keynote was an invited speaker from the Rust
> community (E. Dunham, https://twitter.com/QEDunham). I invite you to
> watch the full talk if you are at all interested in how another language
> handles their community (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7PxyrCBR0),
> but the takeaway for me was their use of forums rather than mailing lists.
>
> The Django mailing lists were an excellent choice when Django began, but I
> feel they have aged out of the modern Web somewhat. The user interface for
> accessing them is particularly poor, which makes it particularly bad for
> new contributors.
>
> In addition, when looking at how to organise the effort to help bring
> async into Django, something more dynamic, and more segmented, than mailing
> lists would be incredibly useful. I don't want to drown out the list in
> specific discussions of how to port certain features, but we need to have
> those discussions somewhere permanent and asynchronous (so not IRC).
>
> The mutability of a forum is also not to be overlooked - as well as
> allowing things like pinned posts and post edits for small issues (or a
> living header on a long discussion topic), it also allows for permanent
> removal of things that break the Code of Conduct. On the people front, it
> also allows people to post without their email being public, allows for
> name changes, and provides for someone's right to be forgotten via
> anonymisation of prior content.
>
> Now, I'm not suggesting we kill the mailing list and switch over or
> anything like that; instead, I suggest we run an instance of Discourse as a
> test, and use it as the primary discussion area for async work, as well as
> anything else that people want to discuss - with the expectation that
> anything important still goes out to this mailing list.
>
> Why Discourse? Apart from being a mature, open source forum project, it's
> also very fully featured, and even supports subscribing and interacting
> with the forum over email, so it can still fit into an email-based
> workflow. There are also plenty of small niceties, like the option to have
> it hosted for us via a paid service, or the ability to use GitHub for login
> rather than requiring a separate username and password. It also helps that
> Rust seems quite happy with it.
>
> I'm mostly asking for the "temperature of the room" on this one - if we
> get some small objections, I think a trial period is still worthwhile. If
> there are major objections, then I'd like to ask people what their
> alternative suggestions are for solving this sort of communication.
>
> Do I think this would replace the mailing list? Not in the short term, but
> maybe if it takes off and we all like it better. I personally would
> interact with django-developers a whole lot more if I could just subscribe
> to certain topics (rather than trying to emulate that with an email filter
> as I do now!), and honestly the same thing for django-users. That said, I
> also recognise that diluting the support/discussion pool is not exactly an
> attractive idea, which is why I'm asking for input!
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAFwN1urJmpwTYqXSF_L57hDLL5-9T4Bkvj9Sb9p8na_-_YWEgA%40mail.gmail.com
> 
> .
>

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