Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
-+-
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler   |Owner:  Jacob
 Type:   |  Walls
  Cleanup/optimization   |   Status:  closed
Component:  Documentation|  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Ready for
 |  checkin
Has patch:  1|  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0|UI/UX:  0
-+-

Comment (by Mariusz Felisiak ):

 In [changeset:"c46e996307b58439eb82343356129a1b971d05ee" c46e996]:
 {{{
 #!CommitTicketReference repository=""
 revision="c46e996307b58439eb82343356129a1b971d05ee"
 [4.0.x] Fixed #27936 -- Rewrote spanning multi-valued relationships docs.

 Backport of 6174814dbe04fb6668aa212a6cdbca765a8b0522 from main
 }}}

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
-+-
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler   |Owner:  Jacob
 Type:   |  Walls
  Cleanup/optimization   |   Status:  closed
Component:  Documentation|  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:  fixed
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Ready for
 |  checkin
Has patch:  1|  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0|UI/UX:  0
-+-
Changes (by Mariusz Felisiak ):

 * status:  assigned => closed
 * resolution:   => fixed


Comment:

 In [changeset:"6174814dbe04fb6668aa212a6cdbca765a8b0522" 6174814d]:
 {{{
 #!CommitTicketReference repository=""
 revision="6174814dbe04fb6668aa212a6cdbca765a8b0522"
 Fixed #27936 -- Rewrote spanning multi-valued relationships docs.
 }}}

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
-+-
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler   |Owner:  Jacob
 Type:   |  Walls
  Cleanup/optimization   |   Status:  assigned
Component:  Documentation|  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Ready for
 |  checkin
Has patch:  1|  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0|UI/UX:  0
-+-
Changes (by Mariusz Felisiak):

 * stage:  Accepted => Ready for checkin


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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
-+-
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler   |Owner:  Jacob
 Type:   |  Walls
  Cleanup/optimization   |   Status:  assigned
Component:  Documentation|  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1|  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0|UI/UX:  0
-+-
Changes (by Jacob Walls):

 * has_patch:  0 => 1


Comment:

 [https://github.com/django/django/pull/15236 PR]

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
-+-
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler   |Owner:  Jacob
 Type:   |  Walls
  Cleanup/optimization   |   Status:  assigned
Component:  Documentation|  Version:  dev
 Severity:  Normal   |   Resolution:
 Keywords:   | Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0|  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0|  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0|UI/UX:  0
-+-
Changes (by Jacob Walls):

 * owner:  nobody => Jacob Walls
 * status:  new => assigned


Comment:

 I linked to this doc in the release note I wrote for #16063. I think the
 main flaw of the doc is it's a bit wordy. It starts with examples, but
 sort of hypothetically, then discusses the implementation, then does
 concrete examples. Could be streamlined. Use the saved space to discuss
 duplicates and joins (that's where I could see the shell session coming
 in). I'll try to give it a go.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by TZanke):

 * cc: TZanke (removed)


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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by TZanke):

 * cc: TZanke (added)


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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by Zach Borboa):

 * cc: Zach Borboa (added)


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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Claude Paroz):

 WRT the format, +1 for SVG, but *clean* SVG if possible for better
 maintainership. The SVG syntax of the OmniGraffle-generated ones is awful.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Adam (Chainz) Johnson):

 Coming here from django-developers post

 I side with Josh that the proposed diagram probably isn't the best, and if
 we were to include one, another could explain the problem better. I find
 the existing text fairly clear - I've forgotten and re-learned this
 distinction from the docs a few times.

 On technology, graphviz isn't the most flexible as it can only do graphs.
 Other diagrams we might add to the docs in future might need more
 flexibility, so I think SVG is a better choice. There's nothing stopping
 the first version of an SVG diagram being generated with graphviz.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Josh Smeaton):

 My objection was not to any diagram, but to that one specifically. I think
 the right diagram definitely would help, but it should clearly show items
 that match and items that don't match for each query type, perhaps with
 colors. Bonus points if it's able to call out the duplicates problem, but
 that could be documented separately.

 I don't personally mind which technology choice is used.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 I personnaly prefer the ascii art (​https://textik.com/#100375b764993664)
 but with graphiz you can do much more. But on the other hand the
 ascii art is straight forward. It is WYSIWYG :-)

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  master
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by Simon Charette):

 * cc: Simon Charette (added)
 * version:  1.10 => master


Comment:

 Given how often the multi-valued `filter()` chaining behavior is reported
 as a bug I think this might be worth a shot.

 I'm not a big fan of diagrams either and I think a simplified shell
 session would be a good step forward. I guess mixing both is also an
 option.

 If we really want to go with graphs I'd suggest we use the [http://www
 .sphinx-doc.org/en/master/ext/graphviz.html#module-sphinx.ext.graphviz the
 Graphiz extension] which makes it easy to maintain, generate SVGs, and
 should be flexible enough to express the previously mentioned ASCII graph.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 Yes, know I think I understood you. The real problem is that diagrams are
 hard to maintain.

 If maintaining them would be easier, then there would be more diagrams.
 The problem is the media break between human editable ascii (which we all
 love) and some svg which looks like some binary randomly encoded to xml.

 There are several extensions for sphinx which could be used: http://www
 .sphinx-doc.org/en/stable/develop.html

 But this gets off topic for this particular issue.

 Tim, what do you think?

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Tim Graham):

 I'm not convinced that a diagram is advantageous for this but if you want
 to create one, you can get other opinions on the DevelopersMailingList.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 Yes, now I see. The real problem is that diagrams are hard to maintain. If
 maintaining them would be easier, then there would be more.

 There are several extensions for sphinx which could be used (I needed to
 remove a link to the sphinx plugin overview page, otherwise trac thinks my
 post is spam)

 But this gets off topic for this particular issue.

 Tim, what do you think?

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Tim Graham):

 Diagrams are used sparsely because they are more difficult to maintain. I
 don't think the diagram offers advantages compared to an example shell
 session that creates objects, runs queries, and shows the results.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 Experts like you are, don't need a diagram.

 Last weekend I taught 32 people the joy of python programming who had few
 or no experience with this language. I do this yearly since about 13
 years.

 Trust me, this helps to see the IT world from a different perspective.

 My goal is to make software development newbee friendly.

 I think a diagram like this would help.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Tim Graham):

 I agree with Josh that a diagram probably isn't the best way to clarify
 things. The " To select all blogs" sentences seem clear to me but perhaps
 you can help state them more clearly if you found them confusing.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 Yes, you are right. the ASCII art is not a perfect solution.


 If I would provide a SVG diagram instead of the ascii art, would you
 include it into the docs?

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Tim Graham):

 I don't think there would be consensus to use ASCII art in the Django
 documentation. If you think some diagram might be helpful (even though
 Josh said he didn't think the diagram is the right way to clarify the
 situation), please follow the pattern used by
 [https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/_images/triage_process.svg existing
 images]. For simplicity, I retitled this ticket rather than closing it and
 creating a new one.

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Thomas Güttler):

 Replying to [comment:1 Josh Smeaton]:
 > I think there's definitely scope to improve the docs around multi valued
 relationships, but I don't think ASCII art (or that diagram) is really the
 right way of doing it. For some added confusion, the docs fail to mention
 that duplicates are possible with the second query (with multiple filters)
 if there is an entry with the headline Lennon AND it was posted in 2008.
 It seems the docs go through a lot of effort to avoid mentioning that a
 second filter causes the query to create a second join to the same table.

 Hi Josh,

 I think your proposal to change the docs are valid.

 This issue is about the ascii art.

 Why not open a new issue for your proposal?

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Re: [Django] #27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships" (was: ASCII Art for docs "Spanning multi-valued relationships")

[Django]

#27936: Add some clarifications to "Spanning multi-valued relationships"
--+
 Reporter:  Thomas Güttler|Owner:  nobody
 Type:  Cleanup/optimization  |   Status:  new
Component:  Documentation |  Version:  1.10
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  0 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by Tim Graham):

 * type:  Uncategorized => Cleanup/optimization
 * stage:  Unreviewed => Accepted


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