Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Joel Roth]

dev1fanboy wrote:
> Some suggestions for minor updates to quick start
> translations.
> 
> There is a change in devuan that means it's no longer
> necessary to do "apt-get install sysvinit core" anymore,
> also "apt-get install basefiles" is not necessary. 
> 
> As mentioned before, adding the user to the disk group is
> not needed anymore. Feel free to change wordings to
> whatever you like, the CC license allows that anyway. 
> 
> A quick suggestion for working with markdown format..
> where commands are done, or snippets of config files, it
> is necessary to use return carriages in mark down after
> each new line or they will display on the same line. 

You can also explicitly break lines by ending the lines with
two or more spaces.

> This
> would basically mean I don't need to comment on changing
> the formatting for them, so content will look better. 
> 
> Anyway, will leave it up to translators if they feel this
> is worth doing, the newer version is what I'm working with
> now because it fixed some bigger issues with the guide
> (https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/devuan-talk-version).
> -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com
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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Wise  writes:

[...]

> But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
> functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects to
> the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
> functionality).

Desktop environment/ window manager independent copy'n'paste is another
feature supposed to be eliminated as soon as technically feasible.
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Re: [DNG] Does dunst require dbus?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:31:43 +1100
Simon Wise  wrote:

> But recently discovered that xfce4-terminal loses critical
> functionality without a session dbus running (it no longer connects
> to the cut buffer and clipboard ... which really destroys its
> functionality). I dropped it in favour of roxterminal which is very
> similar, based on the same engine I believe, but it does the cut
> buffer and clipboard etc directly, as it should.

Hi Simon,

Thanks to your recommendation, I just started using roxterm. What a
breath of fresh air! Tabbed. Multiple profiles mean all sorts of
different terminals for different needs. No unholy union to a "desktop
environment" other than the rox filemanager system.

I need several different types of terminal emulators for several
different types of jobs. From now on I'm using roxterm instead of
xfce4-terminal for all new construction.

Thank you!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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[DNG] The perversion continues

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

I still monitor debian-user. Today on that mailing list a guy asked how
to get network connectivity while using Openbox, and guesses (I have a
feeling correctly) that it's a dhcp problem. He wants to know how to
get dhcp running with Openbox --- it ran with Xfce.

Yes indeedee, I'm pretty sure that now Debian is one of those distros
that doesn't network connect until the desktop environment is running.

Which is some of the worst perversion I've heard to date. Last time I
heard, network connectivity is part of the core OS, not part of the
user interface.

By the way, if any of you just wants to connect to a specific IP
address, here's my always-works, distro-agnostic script to do it:

===
#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96
===

Obviously, change enp3s0 to the interface of choice (which can be
deduced by a shellscript calling ip link), and change the ip address
and route to what you want. This script can be run very early in the
boot. With this script, you can forget about every distro's
idiosyncratic way of specifying network connections, and just get it
done.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] The perversion continues

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi Steve,

Oh come on Steve,

Every modern computer user should know terminals are past their era:
beautiful, appealing to the eye desktops is the way to go. Terminals
are like using a handtool where a powertool can be used effortlessly
and more efficiently.
[/sarcasm]

Yes, I agree with you, the cancer continues to spread unabated.

Edward



On 18/01/2016, Steve Litt  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I still monitor debian-user. Today on that mailing list a guy asked how
> to get network connectivity while using Openbox, and guesses (I have a
> feeling correctly) that it's a dhcp problem. He wants to know how to
> get dhcp running with Openbox --- it ran with Xfce.
>
> Yes indeedee, I'm pretty sure that now Debian is one of those distros
> that doesn't network connect until the desktop environment is running.
>
> Which is some of the worst perversion I've heard to date. Last time I
> heard, network connectivity is part of the core OS, not part of the
> user interface.
>
> By the way, if any of you just wants to connect to a specific IP
> address, here's my always-works, distro-agnostic script to do it:
>
> ===
> #!/bin/bash
> ip link set dev enp3s0 down
> ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
> ip link set dev enp3s0 up
> ip route add default via 192.168.100.96
> ===
>
> Obviously, change enp3s0 to the interface of choice (which can be
> deduced by a shellscript calling ip link), and change the ip address
> and route to what you want. This script can be run very early in the
> boot. With this script, you can forget about every distro's
> idiosyncratic way of specifying network connections, and just get it
> done.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>
>
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[DNG] What JACK is and isn't (was: Re: Slackware now uses PulseAudio...)

[Joel Roth]

Steve Litt wrote:
> In all fairness, I've found few softwares as difficult to install and
> get right as Jack. In fact, of the five times I've tried to install it
> on various distros, I've succeeded zero times.

Hi Steve,

Probably a combination of bad luck, using (GUI?) utilities you
don't need, with a dash of conceptual confusion, IMO.

As others wrote, you don't need JACK unless you want to
connect multiple JACK-aware audio apps.  JACK doesn't reduce
the latency inherent in the soundcard, or in the kernel.
It is specialized, different, not better or worse than 
other audio services.

The Linux audio users list is the authoritative forum for
solving JACK-related issues. Steve, I don't see that you
ever posted to that list.

> So I'd settle for Pulse (or ALSA or OSS) over Jack simply because I can
> actually get those installed.

The short answer is that you don't need JACK at all.

Regards,

Joel
 

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Re: [DNG] The perversion continues

[Ozi Traveller]

There's certainly a pause when boot, if my modem hasn't quite connected.

And if I start the modem first, so it's connected properly, then it just
boots.

:(

Ozi

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:07 AM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>
> Oh come on Steve,
>
> Every modern computer user should know terminals are past their era:
> beautiful, appealing to the eye desktops is the way to go. Terminals
> are like using a handtool where a powertool can be used effortlessly
> and more efficiently.
> [/sarcasm]
>
> Yes, I agree with you, the cancer continues to spread unabated.
>
> Edward
>
>
>
> On 18/01/2016, Steve Litt  wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I still monitor debian-user. Today on that mailing list a guy asked how
> > to get network connectivity while using Openbox, and guesses (I have a
> > feeling correctly) that it's a dhcp problem. He wants to know how to
> > get dhcp running with Openbox --- it ran with Xfce.
> >
> > Yes indeedee, I'm pretty sure that now Debian is one of those distros
> > that doesn't network connect until the desktop environment is running.
> >
> > Which is some of the worst perversion I've heard to date. Last time I
> > heard, network connectivity is part of the core OS, not part of the
> > user interface.
> >
> > By the way, if any of you just wants to connect to a specific IP
> > address, here's my always-works, distro-agnostic script to do it:
> >
> > ===
> > #!/bin/bash
> > ip link set dev enp3s0 down
> > ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
> > ip link set dev enp3s0 up
> > ip route add default via 192.168.100.96
> > ===
> >
> > Obviously, change enp3s0 to the interface of choice (which can be
> > deduced by a shellscript calling ip link), and change the ip address
> > and route to what you want. This script can be run very early in the
> > boot. With this script, you can forget about every distro's
> > idiosyncratic way of specifying network connections, and just get it
> > done.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> >
> >
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> >
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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Simon Hobson]

Ozi Traveller  wrote:

> There's certainly a pause when boot, if my modem hasn't quite connected.
> 
> And if I start the modem first, so it's connected properly, then it just 
> boots.

That could be something much more mundane.
If you have no internet connection, or worse, and IP address but no 
connectivity then DNS lookups can timeout. If you have no connection (ie no 
interface up and configured) at all then they will fail, but if you have a 
connection (any interface up and configured) then the DNS query will be made - 
but will timeout if there isn't connectivity to allow it to be answered.

It's a fairly common issue, across a lot of areas. I've seen it on boards 
(remember them ?), lists, forums along the line of "when I 
[telnet|ssh|something] to ${system} then it pauses for 30s before connecting". 
It's often because the host is trying to do a lookup on the IP address of the 
client, but it's neither failing nor succeeding.

The same can apply to other stuff - eg something trying to contact a server out 
on the internet.

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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Ozi Traveller]

I also have a couple of non-systemd box connected to the same modem, and
they boot to a desktop without the wait.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:53 AM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> Ozi Traveller  wrote:
>
> > There's certainly a pause when boot, if my modem hasn't quite connected.
> >
> > And if I start the modem first, so it's connected properly, then it just
> boots.
>
> That could be something much more mundane.
> If you have no internet connection, or worse, and IP address but no
> connectivity then DNS lookups can timeout. If you have no connection (ie no
> interface up and configured) at all then they will fail, but if you have a
> connection (any interface up and configured) then the DNS query will be
> made - but will timeout if there isn't connectivity to allow it to be
> answered.
>
> It's a fairly common issue, across a lot of areas. I've seen it on boards
> (remember them ?), lists, forums along the line of "when I
> [telnet|ssh|something] to ${system} then it pauses for 30s before
> connecting". It's often because the host is trying to do a lookup on the IP
> address of the client, but it's neither failing nor succeeding.
>
> The same can apply to other stuff - eg something trying to contact a
> server out on the internet.
>
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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 07:37:21AM +1100, Ozi Traveller wrote:
> I have created iso using live-build for Debian wheezy and jessie as well as
> Devuan Jessie. Apart from systemd and slight version differences they are
> the same. Debian Jessie boot the slowest.
> 

Hi Ozi, 

would it be possible for you to please repeat the experiment in a more
scientific way, i.e., reporting the average total time needed to boot
in the two cases, as reported by the kernel, and the associated
standard variance over a set of realisations (boots) on the same
machine?

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Ozi Traveller]

Yes exactly! ;)  Should I hold my breath. :)

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> Ozi Traveller  wrote:
>
> > Debian Jessie boot the slowest.
>
> Ah, that'll be because of stuff that hasn't been "improved" into systemd
> yet
> 
>
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Re: [DNG] Slackware now uses PulseAudio...

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> Rainer Weikusat  wrote:
>> Emiliano Marini  writes:
>> > Word from Eric Hameleers, one of the main Slackware maintainers (AKA
>> > alienbob):
>> >  
>> >> "...you have to have PA installed because applications are now
>> >> linking against it. What you can still do is configure PA to be an
>> >> input channel for ALSA and leave ALSA to control your hardware.
>> >> But generally speaking I would not recommend that unless you have
>> >> high audio quality standards (being a musician or an audiophile)
>> >> in which case you should look at Jackd anyway instead of just ALSA
>> >> or PA.  
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> This is actually really remarkable statement. I understand this
>> basically as "If you don't really care about audio quality, pulseaudio
>> is surely good enough for you", IOW, "despite pulseaudio is anything
>> but good at doing the job it's supposed to be used for, it's surely
>> sufficient for 'consumers'".
>
> In all fairness, I've found few softwares as difficult to install and
> get right as Jack. In fact, of the five times I've tried to install it
> on various distros, I've succeeded zero times.
>
> So I'd settle for Pulse (or ALSA or OSS) over Jack simply because I can
> actually get those installed.

I didn't mean this as a statement about PulseAudio vs Jack, especially
since the only 'audio' I need from my computer is what's necessary for
Doom, but about the attitude behind this statement: "If your
requirements are so primitive that they can be satisfied without
$complicated_audio_middleware, just shut up and be happy that you can
hear something at all".

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Re: [DNG] The perversion continues

[Nate Bargmann]

I scanned that thread at first and my thought was that Network Manager
wasn't being started when he loaded OpenBox.  I thought that once
configured that NM will have a network connection before its GUI
component is even loaded.

- Nate

-- 

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Simon Hobson]

Ozi Traveller  wrote:

> I also have a couple of non-systemd box connected to the same modem, and they 
> boot to a desktop without the wait.

It's probably not systemd vs non-systemd. While it does cause me a bit of a 
choke to defend systemd, it's probably not specifically systemd that's causing 
the delay, but some arbitrary difference that results in ${something} trying to 
make a connection and timing out.
Not saying it isn't system, just that it could well be something else.

Mind you, parallelising everything at startup should mask such delays - so it's 
not a very good advert is it ;-)

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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Simon Hobson]

Ozi Traveller  wrote:

> Debian Jessie boot the slowest.

Ah, that'll be because of stuff that hasn't been "improved" into systemd yet


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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Ozi Traveller]

I have created iso using live-build for Debian wheezy and jessie as well as
Devuan Jessie. Apart from systemd and slight version differences they are
the same. Debian Jessie boot the slowest.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:17 AM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> Ozi Traveller  wrote:
>
> > I also have a couple of non-systemd box connected to the same modem, and
> they boot to a desktop without the wait.
>
> It's probably not systemd vs non-systemd. While it does cause me a bit of
> a choke to defend systemd, it's probably not specifically systemd that's
> causing the delay, but some arbitrary difference that results in
> ${something} trying to make a connection and timing out.
> Not saying it isn't system, just that it could well be something else.
>
> Mind you, parallelising everything at startup should mask such delays - so
> it's not a very good advert is it ;-)
>
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