Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 22:18:16 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 17.06.2017. 17:26, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Are you nuts ?  
> 
> There are rumors, but there is no official evidence :)
> 
> >excusing the Gnome project for the
> > *horrible design decisions* they've made.  
> 
> If you don't like it, don't use it, but don't impose your *design* 
> opinions on others and what they should or should not to use ...as 
> simple as that :)

I wouldn't have, except that you earlier made the point that:

===
> I don't see any purpose that *any* package has a libsystemd
> dependency in distribution with systemd removed?
===
 
The preceding statement seems to my logic to be incompatible with
Gnome3, which requires a whole lot of re-engineering to work without
systemd:

* https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd

* 
https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd/blob/master/README.md

Such heroic efforts must forever track the whims of systemd, or else
force all Gnome3 users to switch GOSFUIs or switch to systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Joel Roth]

Dragan FOSS wrote:
> On 17.06.2017. 17:26, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> >Are you nuts ?
> 
> There are rumors, but there is no official evidence :)
> 
> >excusing the Gnome project for the
> >*horrible design decisions* they've made.
> 
> If you don't like it, don't use it, but don't impose your *design* opinions
> on others and what they should or should not to use ...as simple as that :)

The original post was about libsystemd0. The role of that
library has been fully discussed. I'll reiterate that 
systemd-based apps, need it present, even to determine
that systemd is not available. 

Support for the Gnome desktop ecosystem under devuan is
going to limited by the volunteer manpower needed to get it
working. 

A more straightforward way to get all of Gnome working (at
least as far as Gnome does work ;-) is to use an OS environment
providing the resources commonly used for developing and
deploying Gnome, e.g. systemd.  According to discussions on
debian-user, it is still practical to use sysv-init under
stable and stretch. 

cheers,

-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 17.06.2017. 17:26, Steve Litt wrote:


Are you nuts ?


There are rumors, but there is no official evidence :)


excusing the Gnome project for the
*horrible design decisions* they've made.


If you don't like it, don't use it, but don't impose your *design* 
opinions on others and what they should or should not to use ...as 
simple as that :)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dragan FOSS]

On 17.06.2017. 19:46, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:


The only interesting information would be: "Is it possible to install and run Gnome 
without having installed systemd ?"


Of course it is possible...TRIOS is proof of concept for that.
the only part that does not work(although it must be installed because 
of dependency) is gdm(logind)


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-gnome3.5002/#post-63826
http://mirror.org.rs/trios/mia/pool/main/g/gnome-session/

And not only G3, but also all other desktop environments...Cinnamon, 
Mate, KDE etc


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

can't do this at the moment, my computer screen is messed up on my
devuan ascii computer. alas...

and I don't want to wait two hours to reinstall the whole damn thing...
so I am at a crossroads.

;/ oh well but thank you for telling me about this.

When I get it fixed, I will gladly try it out.

On 06/17/2017 08:32 AM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-06-17 at 05:59 -0400, zap wrote:
>> okay, then. The computer I have it on needs some work anyways.
> Hi zap,
>
> Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
>
> until they are available if you are on i386. Then you can try openrc
> out, just add to your /etc/apt/sources.list:
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii  main
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed  main
> for the other packages.
> and
> apt-get update
> apt-get install ...
>
> NOTE: If you are on real HW, please make sure you can recover in case
> something goes wrong!!!
>
> If you are on amd64 or some other arch I can send you the source files
> (or you can install and build them yourself by: adding
> deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed  main
>
> apt-get update
> apt-get source util-linux (Does not work for me. The Sources file is
> unfortunately empty)
> apt-get build-dep util-linux
> cd util-linux-2.29.2
> dpkg-buildpackage -b
> cd ../build-area
> dpkg -i util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_.deb libfdisk1_2.29.2-
> 1+devuan1_.deb
>
> HTH

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 06/17/2017 11:26 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 03:39:28 +0200
> Dragan FOSS  wrote:
>
>> On 17.06.2017. 03:09, Gary Olzeke wrote:
>>> and XFCE is Devuan's initial Desktop too!  
>> Hm? Currently, I'm using GNOME 3 ;>
> Are you nuts ?
>
> :-)
>
> Gnome3 and systemd are long time lovers in the tightest and most
> entangled embrace possible.
>
> The fact that you're technically competent enough to pull this off
> doesn't change the fact that you're excusing the Gnome project for the
> horrible design decisions they've made.
>
> You mentioned catching cancer early in another post. Gnome3 is an 80
> pound malignant tumor. Cut that puppy out and switch to LXDE or LxQt
> plus dmenu, and leave all relationship between GOSFUI
> (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm) and init system
> behind.
Or switch to mate, either one works in my opinion.  I myself prefer xfce
or mate. LXQT still needs a bit of work in my opinion.

>
>  
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt 
> June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Would it prevent you from installing runit or s6 or Suckless Init +
> daemontools-encore + LittKit or Epoch?

In my experiments with Debian's init system packages on Debian 8
'Jessie', I had no problems installing and using the OpenRC or runit
packages, nor the nosh package.  There was not at that tieme a
daemontools-encore package int the Debian repos, but as you know it's
not an init system but rather a service supervisor, and my experiment
concerned init systems.  There were no packages in the Debian repos for
sinit, LittKit, or Epoch, either.

> When I became aware of init systems as a result of Debian's 2014
> misstep, one thing that amazed me was that one init system's package
> would deinstall other init systems.

{shrug}  Use equivs, package pinning, rebuild the package adjusting its
control files, etc.  Not really brain surgery.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Ron]

On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 17:25:59 +
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> Can we be a little more focused, please? Gnome went for systemd. While I
> don't think it was a good decision, it should not cause you to write off
> the entirety of Gnome for their lack of philososophical purity. Debuan is
> built to protect your choices, not to rule some of them out for political
> rather than technical causes.

The only interesting information would be: "Is it possible to install and run 
Gnome without having installed systemd ?"
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Toddlers are the stormtroopers
   of the Lord of Entropy.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

Can we be a little more focused, please? Gnome went for systemd. While I
don't think it was a good decision, it should not cause you to write off
the entirety of Gnome for their lack of philososophical purity. Debuan is
built to protect your choices, not to rule some of them out for political
rather than technical causes.

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017, 8:26 AM Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 03:39:28 +0200
> Dragan FOSS  wrote:
>
> > On 17.06.2017. 03:09, Gary Olzeke wrote:
> > > and XFCE is Devuan's initial Desktop too!
> >
> > Hm? Currently, I'm using GNOME 3 ;>
>
> Are you nuts ?
>
> :-)
>
> Gnome3 and systemd are long time lovers in the tightest and most
> entangled embrace possible.
>
> The fact that you're technically competent enough to pull this off
> doesn't change the fact that you're excusing the Gnome project for the
> horrible design decisions they've made.
>
> You mentioned catching cancer early in another post. Gnome3 is an 80
> pound malignant tumor. Cut that puppy out and switch to LXDE or LxQt
> plus dmenu, and leave all relationship between GOSFUI
> (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm) and init system
> behind.
>
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> ___
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 03:39:28 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 17.06.2017. 03:09, Gary Olzeke wrote:
> > and XFCE is Devuan's initial Desktop too!  
> 
> Hm? Currently, I'm using GNOME 3 ;>

Are you nuts ?

:-)

Gnome3 and systemd are long time lovers in the tightest and most
entangled embrace possible.

The fact that you're technically competent enough to pull this off
doesn't change the fact that you're excusing the Gnome project for the
horrible design decisions they've made.

You mentioned catching cancer early in another post. Gnome3 is an 80
pound malignant tumor. Cut that puppy out and switch to LXDE or LxQt
plus dmenu, and leave all relationship between GOSFUI
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm) and init system
behind.

 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

I wouldn't have systemd on my system, PID1 or otherwise, for the same
reason I kicked all KDE apps and libs off my computer in 2013:
monolithically entangled complexity that leads to instability if it ever
gets run, directly or indirectly. The first couple years it was hard for
me to run a system without any software that depended on KDE libs. Now,
it's a breeze.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key



On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:40:43 +
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> Actually, I would be quite happy to have systemd on my Devuan system,
> as long as it wasn't acting as the init. Think of it as a virtual
> paperweight.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 14:53 Dragan FOSS  wrote:
> 
> > On 16.06.2017. 23:22, Rick Moen wrote:
> >  
> > > The presence of libsystemd0, albeit annoying, doesn't prevent you
> > > from installing and using OpenRC.  
> >
> >
> > The presence of libsystemd0 means that devuan is not able to
> > function without systemd.
> >
> > Dragan
> > ___
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> >  


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 14:22:16 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):
> 
> > how does one remove that package without removing anything else?
> > 
> > I mean how do you remove it from being depended on by nearly every
> > bit of software...
> > 
> > I want to install openrc so that is why I ask...  
> 
> The presence of libsystemd0, albeit annoying, doesn't prevent you from
> installing and using OpenRC.

Would it prevent you from installing runit or s6 or Suckless Init +
daemontools-encore + LittKit or Epoch?

When I became aware of init systems as a result of Debian's 2014
misstep, one thing that amazed me was that one init system's package
would deinstall other init systems. I'm a big fan of having multiple
init systems on one box, for the same reason most people have multiple
kernels.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

okay, then. The computer I have it on needs some work anyways.

On 06/17/2017 04:27 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 04:24:04AM -0400, zap wrote:
>> No I never said that openrc requires systemd or libsystemd0 matter of
>> fact it would remove the libsystemd0 and most of the software on my
>> devuan ascii install.
>>
> OK. As I said, please hold fire with openrc on ascii, since those
> packages are being reworked. 
>
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 04:24:04AM -0400, zap wrote:
> No I never said that openrc requires systemd or libsystemd0 matter of
> fact it would remove the libsystemd0 and most of the software on my
> devuan ascii install.
> 

OK. As I said, please hold fire with openrc on ascii, since those
packages are being reworked. 

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

No I never said that openrc requires systemd or libsystemd0 matter of
fact it would remove the libsystemd0 and most of the software on my
devuan ascii install.

On 06/17/2017 01:40 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 08:55:44PM -0400, zap wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
>> depends, for me I cannot install openrc without losing literately one
>> hundred or more packages!
>>
>> for the record, I was not... troling... I am completely serious._
> zap, how are you installing OpenRC on Devuan? Which packages are you
> using? On which release? It sounds quite strange that OpenRC requires
> systemd or libsystemd0.
>
> HND
>
> KatolaZ
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 18:44 -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):
> 
> > Anyways I am using devuan ascii and for some reason such an error
> > does
> > exist.  I don't know why though... I want openrc though instead and
> > it
> > doesn't seem to let me install it without wiping most of my
> > software off.

FYI: For now the needed version of sysvinit-core to install is in
ascii-proposed. However, until a later version of util-linux
successfully builds, initscripts cannot be installed due to sysvinit-
utils depends on util-linux. Best solution for now would be to wait.
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[DNG] Missing scrollbars and input widgets in firefox-esr for ascii

[Tom]

Firefox ESR in ascii seems to have problems showing the scrollbar thumb and
checkbox/radio/text input outlines.  I've found relevant bug reports on
Firefox bugzilla, but they appear to have been fixed in Firefox 48/49.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1230955
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1234158
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1262136

Is there any reason why this would be re-appearing in Firefox ESR 52?

Could this issue be what's causing the scrollbars to not show up on
xfce4-terminal, if it's related to gtk3?

-- Tom
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