Re: [DNG] Plasma on Devuan Ceres
Martin Steigerwald wrote on 02.11.18 22:31: > Hi! Hi Martin! > I am considering to switch this main laptop from Debian Sid to Devuan > Ceres for quire some time already. [...] > So or so I am really keen to hear about how Plasma works on Ceres. [...] I didn't get around to testing Plasma on Ceres yet, but essentially it _should_ run on Ceres just as it does on ASCII, at least that's the goal. Except at the time of writing there are probably some quirks you should be aware of, see below. > How about integration of Plasma with other stuff? > > - NetworkManager: [...] I don't use it, cannot comment. > - What about Pulseaudio? [...] Should be the same as ASCII, i.e. libpulse0 depending on libsystemd0. > - How about plugable devices like USB sticks? Are they automatically > detected in Plasma and ready to mount by click? This touches on the probably most important area to pay attention to. Given the current(!) state of the repositories you will likely have to install some packages related to session management et. al. (policykit, elogind, udisks2, ...) from Devuan ASCII. The experimental, unstable (Ceres) and testing (Beowulf) repositories are currently catching up to (re-)establish the intended package flow, which was bypassed towards the ASCII release to speed things up. Note that things are moving swiftly these days, as the `wizards´ are pushing really hard to stabilize things beyond ASCII. (You guys rock!) > Any other experiences about what does work and what does not work? [...] Sorry I can't be of more help, but maybe you got some pointers to what kind of quirks to be aware of, especially that /right now/ you may have to get some packages from current stable (ASCII) to get everything working. Provided you still want to give it a go and not wait until the dust has settled it would be great if you could report back about how it went. HTH, best regards Urban -- Sapere aude! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] systemd in sane-backends
Hi all, libsystemd-dev is present in the packaging of sane-backends in both jessie and ascii. As far as i know, the systemd utility in sane is useful only in the case of network printers. Am i wrong? dh-systemd and libsystemd-dev can be removed from debian/control replacing: dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev, systemd by dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev in debian/rules. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism
On Thu, Nov 01, 2018 at 08:02:26PM +, Daniel Abrecht wrote: > [...] > I hope they ship the devkit soon, I want to install devuan on it too. > Getting a Desktop Environment and Apps to work so it is usable could then > become a bit tricky though. good to know. I'm also looking forward to receive the devkit and planning to use it with Devuan. Maybe we can get in touch to help each other. cheers, Andreas signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 12:16:01 +0100, Martin wrote in message <2230094.aIEOJzzQQQ@merkaba>: > Arnt Karlsen - 03.11.18, 00:10: > > ..I'm beginning to think the good people at kde.org may have > > prepared themselves for this, by supporting, but not depending on > > systemd: 8o) > > That is a pattern I saw with KDE project for quite some time. For > example, Plasma's audio support called Phonon allows to plugin > several multimedia frameworks. > > > ..maybe we should take over KDE like we did sysvinit? ..here is where I should have said "maybe we should take over KDE packaging in Debian like we did with sysvinit?", I see I appear more, er, imperialistic than I meant to be. :o) > I would not aim at taking over KDE. But a cooperation on supporting > Plasma on distributions without Systemd might be beneficial. As far > as I know it should mostly work in the current state, as, as you > said: Plasma does support Systemd, but not depend on it. > > > ..given RHEL's KDE move, and Ubuntu's init system(d), and the > > historical systemd banana republic politics, they _may_ prefer > > a plan B sort of wisdom over expensive panic attacks, if or > > "if" somebody shoots down "systemd support of KDE"... > > Why would somebody do it? ..well, remember what happened to init system freedom of choise in Debian? _Somebody_ shot it down. ;o) > I don't think anyone has this kind of > control over the project to just force it over them. KDE is one of > the friendliest communities I have ever witnessed so far, there is no > need to take it over or anything. Just work with them. .._agreed._ > Again, I'd focus on what I like to achieve, instead of wasting my > energy to be against something. All the energy put into resisting > systemd is better spend in supporting the alternatives. > > Of course you are free to spend your energy any way you like to. > > Currently I think there would not be all that much to do for KDE, > however I know for sure when I switch to Devuan for my desktop based > systems as well. ..as long as the good people at kde.org know us, and we them, I see _no_ worries. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
Martin Steigerwald - 02.11.18, 23:58: > goli...@dyne.org - 02.11.18, 22:34: > > On 2018-11-02 16:09, Martin Steigerwald wrote: […] > > > Thank you for sharing your experience. > > > > > > Simon Walter - 02.11.18, 11:47: > > >> I thought I should write to warn anyone that has not already > > >> upgraded > > >> to ascii. > > > > FYI while we're on the subject, this isn't terribly off-topic. > > Posted to irc today but not well-known yet. It may or may not have > > an impact on the future of KDE: > > > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/02/rhel_deprecates_kde/ > > While I know at least of one KDE developer who at some time worked for > Red Hat, I don't know whether he still works here, I basically could > not care less. > > SUSE already dropped Plasma/KDE with SLES/SLED 12 and while having > supported KDE for a long time. > > However, OpenSUSE still has and support both Plasma and KDE and I > expect Fedora to still carry KDE software as well. > > So or so… I am quite sure that the engagement of enterprise > distributors is not essential to KDE project. The following blog post by Jonathan Riddel shares my point of view: https://jriddell.org/2018/11/02/red-hat-and-kde/ He helped and I think still helps a lot regarding Kubuntu and is also active in Debian Qt/KDE team. But it shows again how important it is to have communities like KDE, Devuan, Debian to be able to basically ignore decisions of even large companies in FLOSS. Communities rock! :) -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in sane-backends
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 10:28:44 +0100 aitor wrote: > Hi all, > > libsystemd-dev is present in the packaging of sane-backends in both > jessie and ascii. As far as i know, the systemd utility in sane is > useful only in the case of network printers. Am i wrong? I thought SANE was net worked scanners, which is all I've ever used sane for. I've always done networked printers by other means. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
Arnt Karlsen - 03.11.18, 00:10: > ..I'm beginning to think the good people at kde.org may have prepared > themselves for this, by supporting, but not depending on systemd: 8o) That is a pattern I saw with KDE project for quite some time. For example, Plasma's audio support called Phonon allows to plugin several multimedia frameworks. > ..maybe we should take over KDE like we did sysvinit? I would not aim at taking over KDE. But a cooperation on supporting Plasma on distributions without Systemd might be beneficial. As far as I know it should mostly work in the current state, as, as you said: Plasma does support Systemd, but not depend on it. > ..given RHEL's KDE move, and Ubuntu's init system(d), and the > historical systemd banana republic politics, they _may_ prefer > a plan B sort of wisdom over expensive panic attacks, if or > "if" somebody shoots down "systemd support of KDE"... Why would somebody do it? I don't think anyone has this kind of control over the project to just force it over them. KDE is one of the friendliest communities I have ever witnessed so far, there is no need to take it over or anything. Just work with them. Again, I'd focus on what I like to achieve, instead of wasting my energy to be against something. All the energy put into resisting systemd is better spend in supporting the alternatives. Of course you are free to spend your energy any way you like to. Currently I think there would not be all that much to do for KDE, however I know for sure when I switch to Devuan for my desktop based systems as well. Thanks, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in sane-backends
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 10:28:44 +0100, aitor wrote in message <4c20787a-8a56-e3d7-6b1d-5746e0af0...@gnuinos.org>: > Hi all, > > libsystemd-dev is present in the packaging of sane-backends in both > jessie and ascii. As far as i know, the systemd utility in sane is > useful only in the case of network printers. Am i wrong? ..I'd say yes, the whole point of Devuan is "ditch systemd and restore init system freedom." ..now, we Devuan users may find ourselves visiting people with e.g. Debian network printers, who e.g. needs help to ditch systemd and restore init system freedom, so at least we need to be able to help with that. > dh-systemd and libsystemd-dev can be removed from debian/control > replacing: > > dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev, systemd > > by > > dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev > > in debian/rules. ..do it, and holler when you need us testing it. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in sane-backends
On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 10:28:44AM +0100, aitor wrote: > Hi all, > > libsystemd-dev is present in the packaging of sane-backends in both jessie > and ascii. As far as i know, the systemd utility in sane is useful only in > the case of network printers. Am i wrong? So it would be good to cut network printers off in Devuan just to not link against libsystemd0? o_O KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 05:14:12PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 12:16:01 +0100, Martin wrote in message > <2230094.aIEOJzzQQQ@merkaba>: > > > Arnt Karlsen - 03.11.18, 00:10: > > > ..I'm beginning to think the good people at kde.org may have > > > prepared themselves for this, by supporting, but not depending on > > > systemd: 8o) > > > > That is a pattern I saw with KDE project for quite some time. For > > example, Plasma's audio support called Phonon allows to plugin > > several multimedia frameworks. > > > > > ..maybe we should take over KDE like we did sysvinit? > > ..here is where I should have said "maybe we should take over > KDE packaging in Debian like we did with sysvinit?", I see I > appear more, er, imperialistic than I meant to be. :o) > I don't think there is an immediate need for taking over packaging of KDE in Debian, and I don't think you have an even rough idea of what kind of effort that would entail: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-qt-...@lists.debian.org :) My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] systemd in sane-backends
On 03/11/2018, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 10:28:44AM +0100, aitor wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> libsystemd-dev is present in the packaging of sane-backends in both >> jessie >> and ascii. As far as i know, the systemd utility in sane is useful only >> in >> the case of network printers. Am i wrong? > > So it would be good to cut network printers off in Devuan just to not > link against libsystemd0? > > o_O > > KatolaZ Looking down from your high horse the surprise comes naturally, isn't it? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism
On 02/11/18 at 23:18, Antony Stone wrote: > On Friday 02 November 2018 at 23:10:48, Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> On 02/11/18 at 13:36, Hendrik Boom wrote: >>> Uness there is already a desktop environment adapted to the needs of >>> mobile touch devices. >>> >>> Or they provide it. Unless they rely on systemd, of course. >> https://pureos.net/ >> >> Free/libre software >> >> PureOS is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, with the best >> privacy-protecting software applications preinstalled. >> >> So, it does come with systemd. But it should be possible to migrate >> to Devuan. > That's an interesting idea, and it depends mainly on what they mean by > "derivative", I think. > > Okay, so they have "the best privacy-protecting software applications > preinstalled", but I wonder what else is different from standard Debian? > > I might well be interesting to do a dist-upgrade which PureOS wasn't > expecting > to happen to it, and find out what the outcome is. AFAIK the customizations concern mainly the graphical interface, the presence of some drivers specific to the new device and a particular selection of applications that (maybe) violates a number of Debian's (and LSB) guidelines. Just to name one, they are going to replace Gnome's shell with a shell of their own, Phosh: https://developer.puri.sm/Environments/Phosh.html#phosh I'm curious to know how close it's going to be to a classic laptop GNU/Linux installation. For instance, will it have a *syslog daemon with logs in /var/log? And what about cron, at, locate etc? Maybe not out-of-the-box, but I expect the packages for these services to be installable form the repos. I really hope it's not going to be as far a departure from the classic distribution as Ubuntu Touch (aka Ubuntu Phone) was. I'd love to try upgrading it's PureOS to Devuan too. It shouldn't be too hard, as the Librem5 is designed to allow a number of distributions to run on it. Or at least it was, I can no longer find references on https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ of alternative distributions that will be installable on the Purism5. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
KatolaZ - 03.11.18, 17:49: > On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 05:14:12PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 12:16:01 +0100, Martin wrote in message > > > > <2230094.aIEOJzzQQQ@merkaba>: > > > Arnt Karlsen - 03.11.18, 00:10: > > > > ..I'm beginning to think the good people at kde.org may have > > > > prepared themselves for this, by supporting, but not depending > > > > on > > > > systemd: 8o) > > > > > > That is a pattern I saw with KDE project for quite some time. For > > > example, Plasma's audio support called Phonon allows to plugin > > > several multimedia frameworks. > > > > > > > ..maybe we should take over KDE like we did sysvinit? > > > > ..here is where I should have said "maybe we should take over > > KDE packaging in Debian like we did with sysvinit?", I see I > > appear more, er, imperialistic than I meant to be. :o) > > I don't think there is an immediate need for taking over packaging of > KDE in Debian, and I don't think you have an even rough idea of what > kind of effort that would entail: > > > https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-qt-kde@lists.debian. > org > :) I second this. I work with Debian Qt/KDE team, helping here and there with user support or bug triaging. They are doing an awesome job. And it is a lot of work just to get Qt right. Then add all the KDE Framework packages on top of it and Plasma, and KDE Application and what else not. Some members of that team, like Maxy, are working heavily with automating parts of packaging with scripts to handle the load. And Hefee handles KDEPIM and Akonadi which is a beast by itself. Of course, if anyone likes to help… go for it. It helps Devuan too :) We are on irc.debian.org, channel #debian-qt-kde. There is also a mailing list. Thanks, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on a Purism
On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 11:14:01PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > AFAIK the customizations concern mainly the graphical interface, the > presence of some drivers specific to the new device and a particular > selection of applications Sounds to me that fixing regressions in a base distribution is out of scope for their project. You can't expect everyone to spend their time on a particular part -- they care about a new GUI and drivers, not about how to start daemons. Yeah, systemd is a huge problem, but for a GUI system with no real customizable daemons it doesn't really matter, and things that used to work did get broken by systemd integration" on non-systemd systems. So phone makers pick what -for them- works. > I'm curious to know how close it's going to be to a classic laptop > GNU/Linux installation. For instance, will it have a *syslog daemon > with logs in /var/log? And what about cron, at, locate etc? Maybe not > out-of-the-box, but I expect the packages for these services to be > installable form the repos. I really hope it's not going to be as far a > departure from the classic distribution as Ubuntu Touch (aka Ubuntu > Phone) was. It's a _touchscreen_ phone, not a "real" computer. For that you want Gemini or GPD Pocket. The input device is not fit for any real hacking. You at most connect to it from the outside. > I'd love to try upgrading it's PureOS to Devuan too. It shouldn't be > too hard, as the Librem5 is designed to allow a number of distributions > to run on it. Or at least it was, I can no longer find references on > https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ of alternative distributions that > will be installable on the Purism5. Crossgrading might be not trivial; vendors of such phones tend to customize them in a way that makes running an off-the-shelf system require re-doing a ridiculous amount of non-upstreamed changes. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Have you heard of the Amber Road? For thousands of years, the ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Romans and co valued amber, hauled through the Europe over the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ mountains and along the Vistula, from Gdańsk. To where it came ⠈⠳⣄ together with silk (judging by today's amber stalls). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ascii upgrade /w KDE
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 17:49:02 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181103164902.xvvez32ywxldg...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Sat, Nov 03, 2018 at 05:14:12PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 12:16:01 +0100, Martin wrote in message > > <2230094.aIEOJzzQQQ@merkaba>: > > > > > Arnt Karlsen - 03.11.18, 00:10: > > > > ..I'm beginning to think the good people at kde.org may have > > > > prepared themselves for this, by supporting, but not depending > > > > on systemd: 8o) > > > > > > That is a pattern I saw with KDE project for quite some time. For > > > example, Plasma's audio support called Phonon allows to plugin > > > several multimedia frameworks. > > > > > > > ..maybe we should take over KDE like we did sysvinit? > > > > ..here is where I should have said "maybe we should take over > > KDE packaging in Debian like we did with sysvinit?", I see I > > appear more, er, imperialistic than I meant to be. :o) > > > > I don't think there is an immediate need for taking over packaging of > KDE in Debian, and I don't think you have an even rough idea of what > kind of effort that would entail: > > https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-qt-...@lists.debian.org > > :) > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ ..well, with my skill set, cooling this planet down a coupla degrees may be a little easier, global heating is "only" about 500TW, about 26 times the pee wee 18TW we humans use to cause it. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
