Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no): > ..is/was these 2 separate swap spaces faster stand-alone than put > together in a RAID0? I'm not sure. Adding the additional complication of the md layer to the Linux swapper thread's management of alternate access between two swap partitions with equal priority seemed really unwise and _likely_ to (at least) complicate operation, so I avoided doing so on the general sentiment of simplicity. In any event, I gather that there are tradeoffs. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/15052/what-are-the-advantages-of-swap-on-a-raid-1-mirror-device https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5898 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:50:45 -0500, Steve wrote in message <20181120115045.311c5...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:36:18 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:08:41AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > > Instead, any package diff from Debian should be considered a > > > problem to be fixed. Any patches, instead of removing systemd > > > support, should make things work both with systemd and modular > > > init/rc systems. And be upstreamed as soon as possible. > > > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and > > personal insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem > > with other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So > > I am sorry but Devuan will stay around. > > If anybody should go away, it's Debian. Their behavior in 2014 > indicates they're not trustworthy. I think Devuan is the true > successor state to Debian. ..is why I proposed mirroring Debian's non-systemd hurd-i386, kfreebsd-amd64, kfreebsd-i386, x32 etc so people looking for a one stop shop distro can get used to the idea "of mirroring and forking only when we have to", and help us by hollering whenever they find weird stuff that makes no sense without systemd things being snuck in, such as weird merges. ..reflecting on the naming of Devuan Beowulf, can we somehow manage to use it as _viable_ bait to win over the good folks at https://www.debian.org/ports/beowulf/ ? > SteveT > > Steve Litt > November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical > Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition > http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 11:22:53 -0800, Rick wrote in message <20181119192253.gk4...@linuxmafia.com>: > ## sdb and sdc are RAID1 mirrored, except for swap. Each is 18 GB > SCSI. > /dev/md0/var/wwwext3nodev,nosuid0 > 2 #sdb5,sdc5 > /dev/md1/var/libext3 nodev 0 2 > #sdb6,sdc6 > /dev/md2/var/spool ext3defaults 0 2 > #sdb7,sdc7 > /dev/sdb8 noneswap sw 0 0 > /dev/sdc8 noneswap sw 0 0 ..is/was these 2 separate swap spaces faster stand-alone than put together in a RAID0? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] packaging kubernetes
On 08.11.18 15:12, Nico Schottelius wrote: > > Hey mtx, > > that is AWESOME. It is *THE* thing we are looking at into for ungleich > and if there was direct support of k8s in Devuan, it could potentially > enable many more people to use Devuan as the default infrastructure OS. thx. Maybe we should discuss how to bring extra packages (that aren't covered by Debian at all) into the distro. Any ideas ? --mtx -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult Free software and Linux embedded engineering i...@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] yet another case of silly Lennartism :p [Fwd: Our build system may be broken: /bin vs /usr/bin]
just for your amusement ... Forwarded Message Subject: Our build system may be broken: /bin vs /usr/bin Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:01:46 + (UTC) Resent-From: debian-de...@lists.debian.org Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:55:31 -0600 From: Dirk Eddelbuettel To: Debian Developers CC: Dirk Eddelbuettel tl;dr: We may be messing up /bin and /usr/bin on some platforms Sorry for the alarming headline but #913982 was filed, indepedently corrobated and simultaneously discovered by upstream. GNU R has long been relying on sed, tar, bzip2, ... and many more base tools. No issues there. Generally looked for in /bin and found there. Starting with binary rebuild r-base_3.5.1-1+b2 however, /usr/bin/* path crept in while the binaries where still in the wrong place. It looked like a one-off so I uploaded 3.5.1-2 which built fine for me on amd64 ...but apparently is already borked again on i386. I am at bit of loss here. Any ideas? Please CC me on replies. I will keep a look at the list archive too. Cheers, Dirk -- http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on a librem5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 19/11/2018 02.01, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..you mirror straight off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/, or > off http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ and pull some amprolla > style stunt? I don't pull any amprolla like stunts, I just use apt-mirror. I kind of mirror pkgmaster.devuan.org once per day, but using it's tor/onion address (devuanfwojg73k6r.onion), which is kind of unnecessary, but I didn't have a reason not do that either, so why not. I'm currently mirroring ascii and beowulf, including the -updates, - -security, -backports, and -proposed repos. I mirror the amd64, arm64, armel and armhf architectures. The stuff I mirror is also accessible at https://mirror.dpa.li/, but my Internet connection is sometimes a bit unreliable, so I don't recommend using it. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEZT8xKpcJ1eXNKSM1cASjafdLVoEFAlvzT3kACgkQcASjafdL VoHENAgAnu9PhjyKRXdmJ0MDapyCaga3JzlzlAgXiQeWv0nGCRriqVXpliJM5yKH nWzuCwPy8KM+eL7KZQHF9JXEJmvBHVBQG2hj+CX2qVljBThs0rl8JtoizHPUA6mx pkuAJ6fTZVt1EFz/I2SXmWE6cShXDerl28d6GHC5Upm7z4Npmg0zj0lV1vEBpdor HTDqDcRlpOlN9+IJyZNN2dRq3BUHRcm5MIKP0aJt8WW8sYvgEX9CAPi9ybL4dCbe yXMwv//zRzK9qaJywL6Fa9s43lxULIt6gIQbZ02Wtgf5pQvwDbDjr+MmsoHGhK7G PttO5XEnee93LNnHw0ZxlyyBmmzW2g== =wyfh -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
For the question of whether merging / and usr is good: It would be good except that rh pushes doing it backwards and debian seems to be falling for that insanity, too. /usr was intended for home directories. Hense usEr. /usr/bin and /usr/lib were created only because disks were small. Disks, not partitions. Since they no long are, and since linux went with /home for home dirs, /usr should be eliminated. *Everything* currently in /usr should instead be in /. That is the only reasonable, rational and ethical way to merge them. The default prefix should be /local and the default prefix used by distributions should be /. /opt/package should remain for non-src stuff. But the string '/usr' should never appear in any pathname. -JimC -- James Cloos OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:03:37PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:40:14 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > > > [cut] > > > > > > > > ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages > > > that have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin > > > or /sbin over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. > > > > > > Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr > > > scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin > > > and all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. > > > In the non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell > > > breaks loose. > > > > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to > > solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have > > at all), OK? :) > > > > There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to > > massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's > > keep calm and carry on ;) > > And besides all that, a few symlinks or hardlinks solves the problem > if it ever does come to pass. Only, of course, if /usr is already mounted. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 11:04:42AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > As to the rest, I'm not in the habit of posting to public mailing lists > detailed information about how often and precisely how I carry out > security-sensitive maintenance at the very core of my systems. I'm just > fickle and unreasonable about that, I guess. No reason. ;-> That's very reasonable. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de): > AFAIK make-kpkg from kernel-package has been deprecated since a long > time, easily more than year or to already. I just did not care so far. > It works just the way I like it… so I intend to continue to use it for > as long as it does. Which may be years to come. Yes, my reaction's pretty much the same, though eventually I'll get around to try doing things differently and see how it goes. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Rick Moen - 21.11.18, 00:02: > Quoting Harald Arnesen (skog...@gmail.com): > > Why not just use "make deb-pkg" from the kernel source tree? > > I'm a little unclear on whether this is a suggestion, ot a question, > or both, or a suggestion disguised as a question. ;-> > > Yesterday when I posted upthread, I had just then learned that > make-kpkg(1) had come to be deprecated. My longstanding workflow for > building kernel packages, to date, has been built around that nice > Debian tool. Probably it won't after eventual rearchitecting. I've > had other things occuping my time, so this is an area where the 'This > Toolchain Works, So Don't Fix It' principle had been in operation. > > I'll get to evaluating and probably migrating over to The Slightly > Shiny in the fullness of time. (Yes, I'd been aware of 'make > deb-pkg' from the kernel guys, but hadn't used it because what I had > in place already met my needs.) AFAIK make-kpkg from kernel-package has been deprecated since a long time, easily more than year or to already. I just did not care so far. It works just the way I like it… so I intend to continue to use it for as long as it does. Which may be years to come. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Harald Arnesen (skog...@gmail.com): > Why not just use "make deb-pkg" from the kernel source tree? I'm a little unclear on whether this is a suggestion, ot a question, or both, or a suggestion disguised as a question. ;-> Yesterday when I posted upthread, I had just then learned that make-kpkg(1) had come to be deprecated. My longstanding workflow for building kernel packages, to date, has been built around that nice Debian tool. Probably it won't after eventual rearchitecting. I've had other things occuping my time, so this is an area where the 'This Toolchain Works, So Don't Fix It' principle had been in operation. I'll get to evaluating and probably migrating over to The Slightly Shiny in the fullness of time. (Yes, I'd been aware of 'make deb-pkg' from the kernel guys, but hadn't used it because what I had in place already met my needs.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Rick Moen [20/11/2018 20.04]: > Since the gentleman seemed not to be familiar with make-kpkg in package > kernel-package, perhaps he should start there. (However, I believe it's > now deprecated as of Debian stretch, and being replaced by newer > automation tool deb-pkg, and coverage in The Debian Administrator's > Handbook has now been updated to discuss that, instead.) Why not just use "make deb-pkg" from the kernel source tree? -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Rich Moen: ... > Since the gentleman seemed not to be familiar with make-kpkg in package > kernel-package, perhaps he should start there. (However, I believe it's > now deprecated as of Debian stretch, and being replaced by newer > automation tool deb-pkg, and coverage in The Debian Administrator's > Handbook has now been updated to discuss that, instead.) Just go into the top dir of the linux source and issue a "make deb-pkg" to get debian packages of the kernel build. Perhaps https://kernelnewbies.org/KernelBuild https://www.virtono.com/community/tutorial-how-to/compiling-linux-kernels-under-ubuntu-or-debian/ will help. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 20-11-18 18:38, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:09:59 +0100 > info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > >> On 18-11-18 09:36, KatolaZ wrote: >>> This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in >>> debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and >>> personal insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem >>> with other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So >>> I am sorry but Devuan will stay around. >>> >>> HND >>> >>> KatolaZ >> That had been to be expected the origins of Devuan were not a polite >> conversation and language used on this list against debian-devs still >> contains harsh words. > And proud of it. Debian's behavior in 2014 was inexcusable. Systemd is > inexcusable except as a profit motive to Redhat. They laughed at Devuan > and said it would never get off the ground. Devuan persists today, as > an ever more popular distro, in spite of the stumbling blocks the > Debian systemd afficianados throw into Debian. > > In this new moment of love and understanding, it's perhaps instructive > to see exactly how the sausage was made: > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 > > Gotta give that guy Paul Tagliamonte credit: He kept things on the > straight and narrow to make systemd not only the default, but perhaps > the only, sending any lines of questioning he didn't like to other > threads. It would be interesting to find out his motives. > > And who can forget the GR, where, at the last minute, when it appeared > that they stacked the deck, by adding a new alternative, when it looked > like the GR would demand Debian work without a systemd PID1? > > Why in the WORLD would Devuan ever assimilate back into the corrupt > Debian? > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical > Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition > http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr Well you are proud of it. What exactly do you expect from a systemd aficionado when he/she reads a message from a Devuan developer? Red carpet, flowers and bourbon? Truth is harsh words do not help anyone. And not all debian-devs are systemd fans but do not like harsh word about Debian either. So as long as KatolaZ wants and be able to stay there it will help Devuan and possibly win some developers/maintainers for Devuan. That is what i was talking about not about a return to Debian. Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On 11/19/2018 06:17 AM, KatolaZ wrote: Hi All, in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the current unstable installer: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso It would be great for the vocal support against usr-merge to become a concrete piece of help to maintaining choice in Devuan. So if you care, please install beowulf/ceres using the mini.iso above and help testing all the possible scenarios of non-merged /usr, to discover any potential issue/breakage there. Note: the mini.iso is a barebone netinst, and tasksel does not currently work (I am on that). The "Package selection" step will fail. Just skip it, continue with the installation, and then install stuff with apt-get after reboot. Please report bugs on https://bugs.devuan.org. We are currently upgrading many packages in unstable, including reportbug, so either use the reportbug version from ascii or just use reportbug to prepare the report and then send the email it creates to submit[at]bugs.devuan.org Your help is very welcome. HND KatolaZ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng On 11/19/2018 06:17 AM, KatolaZ wrote: Hi All, in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the current unstable installer: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso It would be great for the vocal support against usr-merge to become a concrete piece of help to maintaining choice in Devuan. So if you care, please install beowulf/ceres using the mini.iso above and help testing all the possible scenarios of non-merged /usr, to discover any potential issue/breakage there. Note: the mini.iso is a barebone netinst, and tasksel does not currently work (I am on that). The "Package selection" step will fail. Just skip it, continue with the installation, and then install stuff with apt-get after reboot. Please report bugs on https://bugs.devuan.org. We are currently upgrading many packages in unstable, including reportbug, so either use the reportbug version from ascii or just use reportbug to prepare the report and then send the email it creates to submit[at]bugs.devuan.org Your help is very welcome. HND KatolaZ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng KatolaZ I know you said to test: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso This go for: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso My old reliable just finished up a test that it was doing. I saw that the one you linked to was 64 bit. Until this 32 bit goes to it's final resting place, I still use it. FYI Aopen server cir 2002/3. I had more, this is the last one. Another died about a month ago and have not had time to find the replacement power supply. I call it, the bunny. It keeps going and going and going... :D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 02:32:28AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > > > And what kernel source do you use, kernel.org or Debian? > > > > I'm unclear on what possible use you would have for that information. > > It might help those wanting to try it themselves. Since the gentleman seemed not to be familiar with make-kpkg in package kernel-package, perhaps he should start there. (However, I believe it's now deprecated as of Debian stretch, and being replaced by newer automation tool deb-pkg, and coverage in The Debian Administrator's Handbook has now been updated to discuss that, instead.) As to the rest, I'm not in the habit of posting to public mailing lists detailed information about how often and precisely how I carry out security-sensitive maintenance at the very core of my systems. I'm just fickle and unreasonable about that, I guess. No reason. ;-> -- Cheers,"I never quarrel with a man who buys ink by the barrel." Rick Moen-- Rep. Charles B. Brownson (R-Indiana), ca. 1960 r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 2018-11-20 11:38, Steve Litt wrote: And who can forget the GR, where, at the last minute, when it appeared that they stacked the deck, by adding a new alternative, when it looked like the GR would demand Debian work without a systemd PID1? Repeating here for truth in case anyone has not seen this excellent analysis of how the GR vote went down. dasein nailed it! http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20=120652 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:17:45 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > Hi All, > > in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with > the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great > discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > current unstable installer: > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso I couldn't install this in a qemu guest. Right after the screen that asked what software to install, such as lxqt, lxde, print utilities and console utilities, I got the "An installation step failed" error. I looked at Ctrl+Alt+F4 and it seemed that it griped about the following: * task-english * unix-linux-locales * ibritish * iamerican SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 12:38:24PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:09:59 +0100 > info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > > > On 18-11-18 09:36, KatolaZ wrote: > > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > > > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and > > > personal insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem > > > with other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So > > > I am sorry but Devuan will stay around. > > > > > > HND > > > > > > KatolaZ > > > > That had been to be expected the origins of Devuan were not a polite > > conversation and language used on this list against debian-devs still > > contains harsh words. > > And proud of it. Debian's behavior in 2014 was inexcusable. Systemd is > inexcusable except as a profit motive to Redhat. They laughed at Devuan > and said it would never get off the ground. Devuan persists today, as > an ever more popular distro, in spite of the stumbling blocks the > Debian systemd afficianados throw into Debian. > Dear Steve, as I said, there is no risk of Devuan being "assimilated" by Debian, for several reasons which I don't need to explain here. It is also true, anyway, that Devuan still pretty much depends on Debian for the majority of its packages, as many other distributions do. If each person willing to "kiss Debian goodbye forever" would be ready to maintain 40/50 source packages, then we would need about 500 of them to maintain all the packages that are available in ascii. This is the size we are talking about. And we have just a fraction of that number. Also, at the rate packages are currently built in Debian, we would need something in the region of 250/300 build hosts. We have about 15, at the moment, and that's already a good achievement IMHO. Devuan has managed to remain around and to grow, despite all the well-informed have repeatedly declared its death. But if Debian disappears tomorrow, the well-informed would be probably proven right, except maybe for something slightly larger than the base system, which is what we can reasonably afford to maintain at the moment :) Now, to get back to what really matters (packages, development, releases, functionality), how are we doing with testing and packaging runit scripts? Do you think we could have something to build for experimental soon, so that we can test it more widely? It would be really great to have runit as one of the supported init options in Devuan. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 14:29:43 -0600 goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-11-18 02:32, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the > > debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question > > for usrmerge: > > > > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ > > > > and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper > > folders under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any > > bug related to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and > > polkit-stuff are not there yet. > > > > Regards > > > > KatolaZ > > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > configured with or without the merge as default? That's a decision > that needs to be discussed too. In my opinion, the live ISOs should be mergeless. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Martin Steigerwald - 20.11.18, 18:22: > So in my opinion it is good to cooperate so that Devuan can take as > much as possible from Debian and focus on the packages that actually > need to be changed for Debian. For Devuan of course. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:19:31 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > It does make a difference since we allow to install from the live, > using refractainstaller (not d-i). I guess the ISOs themselves will be > built without a merged usr, and then we will let the user choose if > they want a merged usr in case they decide to install from the live. > > KISS Sounds like an excellent idea to me. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:48:47 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > The fact that systemd is the default in Debian and that any attempt to > discuss the possibility of supporting alternatives is mostly seen as > "trolling" does not make life any easier though. And even if they promised to support alternatives, I'll bet dollars to donuts they'd reverse their stance the minute Devuan re-assimilated into Debian. The Debian project/community has shown themselves to be untrustworthy. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 13:09:59 +0100 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 18-11-18 09:36, KatolaZ wrote: > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and > > personal insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem > > with other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So > > I am sorry but Devuan will stay around. > > > > HND > > > > KatolaZ > > That had been to be expected the origins of Devuan were not a polite > conversation and language used on this list against debian-devs still > contains harsh words. And proud of it. Debian's behavior in 2014 was inexcusable. Systemd is inexcusable except as a profit motive to Redhat. They laughed at Devuan and said it would never get off the ground. Devuan persists today, as an ever more popular distro, in spite of the stumbling blocks the Debian systemd afficianados throw into Debian. In this new moment of love and understanding, it's perhaps instructive to see exactly how the sausage was made: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 Gotta give that guy Paul Tagliamonte credit: He kept things on the straight and narrow to make systemd not only the default, but perhaps the only, sending any lines of questioning he didn't like to other threads. It would be interesting to find out his motives. And who can forget the GR, where, at the last minute, when it appeared that they stacked the deck, by adding a new alternative, when it looked like the GR would demand Debian work without a systemd PID1? Why in the WORLD would Devuan ever assimilate back into the corrupt Debian? SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Steve Litt - 20.11.18, 18:10: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:46:13 +0100 > > Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:36: […] > > Maybe… not just yet. > > > > But there certainly is a potential. I am glad about the wonderful > > cooperation between some Devuan and some Debian developers. > > > > Of course, re-uniting and still providing the choice between any > > other init system and systemd or usr-split and usr-merge would > > require to solve quite some technical challenges as well. I'd say it > > is not impossible, but it could be challenging. > > Speaking for myself, there is no context in which I would ever go back > to Debian. Yes, 2014 is in the past, but past behavior is the best > determinate for future behavior, and very frankly, when I hear the > word "Debian", I feel a little nauseous. If Debian were the last > Linux distro, I'd go BSD. For the majority of packages, you are actually using Debian. In my opinion it is beneficial for the Devuan project and the Debian project to work together as it is happening now. Devuan is quite an achievement. However adding to that maintaining all the packages that Devuan takes *unchanged* from Debian, would be a completely new dimension. So in my opinion it is good to cooperate so that Devuan can take as much as possible from Debian and focus on the packages that actually need to be changed for Debian. Why I am writing it? Despite all what happened and what different people did, wrote or said… I am thankful for Debian. I am a bit sad about people here still treating it as an enemy. It is not. And especially it is also not Debian as a monolithic thing… Debian has thousand developers or so. Not everyone agree with the way Systemd was introduced or even with that Systemd was introduced at all. Well in the end: Without Debian Devuan basically would not exist. Could Devuan pull off maintaining all the other packages as well? Probably yes… however I'd not focus there. So the more Devuan people drop their concept or belief of Debian as an enemy the better. And vice versa, Luckily KatolaZ and other Devuan developers already understand this. From all the distros out there, Debian is still one of the best choices available. For those who like to do without Systemd and more importantly with a different init system Devuan is just right. And that is it. No drama, no concept of enemy needed. Of course you are free to engage in that anyway. I won't. Cause it does not do anything to make my life or the life of others any better than it already is. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Henrik: > On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 02:32:28AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > > > And what kernel source do you use, kernel.org or Debian? > > > > I'm unclear on what possible use you would have for that information. > > It might help those wanting to try it themselves. You don't need to know his setups for that, don't pry. If you need help with your setup, please ask. For thoose who wants to make their own kernel I suggest they start with a tarball from: https://www.kernel.org/ You can find some doc. there also. For thoose who want to follow the development or wants to build differnt versions of linux I suggest git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-stable.git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/rt/linux-stable-rt.git depending on what they want. Note, some later compilers can not compile some older linux versions out of the box. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:46:13 +0100 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > KatolaZ - 18.11.18, 09:36: > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and > > personal > > The most important aspect here is: "has been". Its in the past > already and it does not determine the future. > > > insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with > > other people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am > > sorry but Devuan will stay around. > > Maybe… not just yet. > > But there certainly is a potential. I am glad about the wonderful > cooperation between some Devuan and some Debian developers. > > Of course, re-uniting and still providing the choice between any > other init system and systemd or usr-split and usr-merge would > require to solve quite some technical challenges as well. I'd say it > is not impossible, but it could be challenging. Speaking for myself, there is no context in which I would ever go back to Debian. Yes, 2014 is in the past, but past behavior is the best determinate for future behavior, and very frankly, when I hear the word "Debian", I feel a little nauseous. If Debian were the last Linux distro, I'd go BSD. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:40:14 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages > > that have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin > > or /sbin over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. > > > > Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr > > scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin > > and all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. > > In the non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell > > breaks loose. > > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to > solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have > at all), OK? :) > > There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to > massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's > keep calm and carry on ;) And besides all that, a few symlinks or hardlinks solves the problem if it ever does come to pass. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 09:36:18 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 01:08:41AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > Instead, any package diff from Debian should be considered a > > problem to be fixed. Any patches, instead of removing systemd > > support, should make things work both with systemd and modular > > init/rc systems. And be upstreamed as soon as possible. > > This is not gonna happen, given for instance the way our presence in > debian-devel has been "cheered up" (with aggressive posts and personal > insults). The truth is that too many people have a problem with other > people not liking systemd and not wanting it around. So I am sorry but > Devuan will stay around. If anybody should go away, it's Debian. Their behavior in 2014 indicates they're not trustworthy. I think Devuan is the true successor state to Debian. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 02:32:28AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > And what kernel source do you use, kernel.org or Debian? > > I'm unclear on what possible use you would have for that information. It might help those wanting to try it themselves. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 04:28:42PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > KatoloZ wrote: "We have put together a solution that consists into > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > current unstable installer:" > > Ooooh, not even Einstein could have arrived at that! Very brainy, > extremely smart! If you were so smart to know how to do that one week ago, as you seemed to suggest in your previous email, why didn't you move a single finger to get it done, or to propose a patch? :) Chatting is cheap. Proposing solutions that "work for me only" is easy. Providing mechanisms that do not break thousands of existing installations and do not drive people mad is a totally different story, as you might probably know... HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
KatoloZ wrote: "We have put together a solution that consists into choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the current unstable installer:" Ooooh, not even Einstein could have arrived at that! Very brainy, extremely smart! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Well, AFAIU, you compile your own kernel, with device drivers > in the kernel, instead of modules (not possible for all), and don't > use the packaged kernel/initrd provided by Debian. That's not _precisely_ what I said, no. (I have nothing against modules, after all.) As I already mentioned immediately upthread, I compile drivers essential for my hardware into the kernel image, and a variety of other drivers that I might need but might not as modules. > It is absolutely possible to live like this, Well, that's a relief! You had me worried. ;-> > ...but it discards apt-controlled kernel updates (typically once per > month). Do you _really_ replace your kernel once a month? That seems outlandish, to me. I'm not entirely certain what you mean by 'apt-controlled'. A I already mentioned, make-kpkg(1) is an obvious tool for this purpose that constructs a debianised local package, which therefore among other results is fully registered with the package subsystem. Perhaps you should try it. If by 'apt-controlled' you mean 'fetching and running binary debs of someone else's kernel', no, I prefer to run mine, instead. > Do you perform kernel updates, and how? How? Rather well! ;-> > And what kernel source do you use, kernel.org or Debian? I'm unclear on what possible use you would have for that information. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 20/11/2018 à 00:43, k...@aspodata.se a écrit : Didier: Le 17/11/2018 à 16:15,k...@aspodata.se a écrit : Didier: If you want to boot directly to the disk, then don't use a distro. I boot directly to disk, why shouldn't I use a distro ? I see no downside of using a distro, I just choose what parts I want to use. Would you be kind enough to describe how you do that? (unless you found a distro which does this out of the box). Devuan's init scripts expect to find the OS in a certain state which is achieved after the initramfs sequence and is not done by the sole kernel. Eg /proc, /sys, /run and /dev are supposed to be already mounted. Don't know much how devuan sysv init files does it, I am currently testing out busybox init and I just have a /etc/rcS file that takes my computer to the state I wish it to end up in, kind of 80'th bsd rc style. So I guess you have removed the package sysv-init, because, at least its /etc/inittab isn't the same as Busyboxe's. It's a significant (and very interesting) hack of the init system, which might deserve to be packaged. But I tend to consider it is not exactly waht could be called "using a distro". It is, IMHO, as long as it isn't packaged, a big hack. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 19/11/2018 à 23:57, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): Very nice. Congratulations. Do I understand well if I understand your scripts read the config of the Debian kernel and customize it to compile your own kernel? I must beg your pardon, Didier, but I don't fully understand your question. In general terms: I've long ago gotten used to the idea that, on the rare occasions when it's desirable to change a system's kernel, I just am used to carrying forward the existing .config file and using make-kpkg(1). It's too infrequent an operation to fully script, at least in my use-case. It's not necessary or useful for any scripting to parse the kernal .config, as far as I'm aware. Well, AFAIU, you compile your own kernel, with device drivers in the kernel, instead of modules (not possible for all), and don't use the packaged kernel/initrd provided by Debian. It is absolutely possible to live like this, but it discards apt-controlled kernel updates (typically once per month). Do you perform kernel updates, and how? And what kernel source do you use, kernel.org or Debian? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
