Re: [DNG] Participate to the first Devuan Conference in Amsterdam!

[aitor]

On 29/11/18 16:11, KatolaZ wrote:

I think I will be there, and I hope to see many D1rs there;)

HND

KatolaZ


Me too. I can't promise to be there, but i'll try :)

Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Erik Christiansen]

On 03.12.18 00:47, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 02, 2018 at 11:53:39PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > On 02/12/18 at 17:23, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > > You'd want to set noatime on every machine
> > > you control.
> > 
> > 
> >   Some mail servers and clients do use it to determine if a mail was
> > read after it arrived.  In this case, it'd be better to have it set on /var.

TL;DR: Use relatime there, as noatime will break mutt.

> That's no more.  And, let me clarify: atime was used for mail:
> * only with mbox (Maildir never suffered from this issue)
> * only on the local machine
> * only by the shell to say "You have new mail." vs "You have mail."
>   -- not even by the mail client

Not true, according to the on-line manual for my current mutt
installation:

» Other possible causes of Mutt not detecting new mail in these folders
are backup tools (updating access times) or filesystems mounted without
access time update support (for Linux systems, see the relatime
option).«

> So the whole effort gave you just a single word in a message, that many
> people even didn't notice.
> 
> And, popular local mail clients are already patched to update atime
> explicitly.
> 
> Ie, atime for mail is an ex-reason.

A fine assertion, but wiser is to check the facts. A quick glance in "man
mount" shows:

»relatime
  Update inode access times relative to modify or change time.  Access
  time  is  only updated  if  the previous access time was earlier than
  the current modify or change time. (Similar to noatime, but doesn't
  break mutt or other applications  that  need to know if a file has
  been read since the last time it was modified.)

  Since  Linux  2.6.30,  the  kernel defaults to the behavior provided
  by this option (unless noatime was  specified), and the strictatime
  option is required  to  obtain traditional semantics. In addition,
  since Linux 2.6.30, the file's last access time is always  updated  if
  it  is more than 1 day old.
«

It would seem then, that noatime will break mutt, but relatime is OK,
and is now the default. IIUC.

Erik
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2018 at 11:53:39PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 02/12/18 at 17:23, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > You'd want to set noatime on every machine
> > you control.
> 
> 
>   Some mail servers and clients do use it to determine if a mail was
> read after it arrived.  In this case, it'd be better to have it set on /var.

That's no more.  And, let me clarify: atime was used for mail:
* only with mbox (Maildir never suffered from this issue)
* only on the local machine
* only by the shell to say "You have new mail." vs "You have mail."
  -- not even by the mail client

So the whole effort gave you just a single word in a message, that many
people even didn't notice.

And, popular local mail clients are already patched to update atime
explicitly.

Ie, atime for mail is an ex-reason.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

OnIl 02/12/18 at 22:58, g4sra wrote:
> I have found flashybrid extremely beneficial in the past, on switching
> from Debian to Devuan Ascii it appears not to be in the repository, is
> it in Beowulf ?. I am not aware of any dependencies it has on 
> systemd.


  It was removed from Debian on January 2017:

https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/flashybrid


  Looks like development upstream stopped 11 years ago:

https://github.com/elcuco/flashybrid

Latest commit 2a0d291

on 23 Sep 2007


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 at 21:04, Rick Moen wrote:
> I also recommend (while in single-user mode as the root user) doing this
> in each of your system's mountpoint directories:
>
> # touch NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE
> # chattr +i NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE
>
> That's saved me confusion quite a few times when I'm puzzled about one
> of those directories unexpectedly lacking the expected files.


  Good idea.  To address the same problem I often set the unmounted
mountpoint chmod 0.  However, I noticed this setting causes sshfs to
fail with the message:

fuse: failed to open mountpoint for reading: Permission denied


Your method does make sense.  It even works for root!  ☺



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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[g4sra]

Some very useful feedback from you guys already, thanks.

Don't forget standard best practices, backups of system and user's data,
selective updates and security patches must be manually applied
following proper change control procedures.

The server is RAIDed, the workstations have just a single HDD.


To clarify some points raised.

1) Approx 200 trainees each year, the full course is three years long
(but class size will be 30 maximum at any one session).
By year 3... 600 Users. After year 3 the trainees details may be purged
and resources reclaimed so the server will never have to support more
than 600 accounts.

2) The trainees progress is stored in a .subdirectory of their home
directory by the (annoyingly) proprietary closed source training software.

3) The trainees cannot be guaranteed to be sat in the same seat at every
training session. In fact, must move to one of the few workstations with
a joystick\graphical tablet for specific lessons.

4) A downed workstation must be easily replaced without loss of trainees
work.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 at 17:23, Adam Borowski wrote:
> You'd want to set noatime on every machine
> you control.


  Some mail servers and clients do use it to determine if a mail was
read after it arrived.  In this case, it'd be better to have it set on /var.



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Re: [DNG] packages.devuan.org is not updated for a long time

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 at 20:51, Rob wrote:
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Sunday, 2 December 2018 18:27, Hleb Valoshka <375...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> cat /etc/apt/sources.list
>> deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main contrib non-free
>>
>> sudo apt update
>> Hit:1 http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged ceres InRelease
>> Reading package lists... Done
>> Building dependency tree
>> Reading state information... Done
>> 8 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.
>>
>> Those 8 are from the previous update made a week or two ago.
>>
>> lynx --dump http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ceres/main/
>> [23]Contents-all.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:09
>> 34
>> [24]Contents-amd64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12
>> 36760877
>> [25]Contents-arm64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:15
>> 35139206
>> [26]Contents-armel.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:17
>> 34457135
>> [27]Contents-armhf.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:18
>> 34888021
>> [28]Contents-i386.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:20
>> 36720025
>> [29]Contents-source.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12
>>
>> host packages.roundr.devuan.org
>> packages.roundr.devuan.org has address 5.196.38.18
>>
>> Dng mailing list
>> Dng@lists.dyne.org
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list has info.
>
> Rob


  Yes, we're supposed to use deb.devuan.org.  However, it has issues
with SSL certificates and some mirror repositories if I configure it to
work over https:


[...]

Err:14 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages
  SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host
name 'deb.devuan.org'

Err:37 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates/main amd64 Packages
  SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host
name 'deb.devuan.org'

Err:61 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main amd64 Packages
  SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host
name 'deb.devuan.org'
Ign:62 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main Translation-it_IT

[...]

Ign:59 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/non-free all
Contents (deb)
Reading package lists... Done
W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii Release' does not
have a Release file.
N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore
potentially dangerous to use.
N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user
configuration details.
W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates Release'
does not have a Release file.
N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore
potentially dangerous to use.
N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user
configuration details.
W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security Release'
does not have a Release file.
N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore
potentially dangerous to use.
N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user
configuration details.
E: Failed to fetch
https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/binary-amd64/Packages 
server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none
E: Failed to fetch
https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-updates/main/binary-amd64/Packages 
server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none
E: Failed to fetch
https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages 
server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none
E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old
ones used instead.

  On a second run:


[...]

Ign:14 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main all Packages
Err:15 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages
  server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none

Err:32 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates/main amd64 Packages
  server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none

Err:49 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main amd64 Packages
  server certificate verification failed. CAfile:
/etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 at 21:07, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Am Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2018 schrieb Edward Bartolo:
>> On 02/12/2018, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
>> [...]
>>> Do not use swap.
>>> Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp.
>>> Turn off logging.
>>> Mount / readonly.
>>> Use "noatime" mountoption.
>>>
>> How can I use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp?
> In your /etc/fstab:
> tmpfs   /tmptmpfs   relatime0   1
> tmpfs   /var/tmptmpfs   relatime0   1


  You'd better specify the mode=1777 mount option, to make sure the tmp
directory is going to have the Deletion Restriction Bit set.


>> And, also turn off logging?
> If you like a logfile that's available till shutdown:
> tmpfs   /var/logtmpfs   relatime0   1
>
> Or disable rsyslogd .. I think it was this sequence:
> # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 2
> # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 3
> # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 4
> # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 5

update-rc.d rsyslog disable

will work for all runlevels.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[golinux]

It appears not:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=flashybrid=any


On 2018-12-02 15:58, g4sra wrote:

I have found flashybrid extremely beneficial in the past, on switching
from Debian to Devuan Ascii it appears not to be in the repository, is
it in Beowulf ?. I am not aware of any dependencies it has on 
systemd.

On 02/12/2018 10:41, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi everyone.

Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.

The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.

Can any good soul help, please?
Thanks.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[g4sra]

I have found flashybrid extremely beneficial in the past, on switching
from Debian to Devuan Ascii it appears not to be in the repository, is
it in Beowulf ?. I am not aware of any dependencies it has on 
systemd.

On 02/12/2018 10:41, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi everyone.
> 
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
> 
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
> 
> Can any good soul help, please?
> Thanks.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Gregory Nowak]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2018 at 11:41:48AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
> 

I have an rpi2 which I've been running for almost three years now, and
which stays up 24/7. I run fstrim once a week from a cron job, and the
sd card is still doing fine as far as I can tell. While this doesn't
minimize write cycles, it does reduce wear on the card by distributing
writes to different sectors. The other suggestions in this thread are
also good ones.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2018 schrieb Edward Bartolo:
> On 02/12/2018, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > Do not use swap.
> > Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp.
> > Turn off logging.
> > Mount / readonly.
> > Use "noatime" mountoption.
> >
> 
> How can I use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp?

In your /etc/fstab:
tmpfs   /tmptmpfs   relatime0   1
tmpfs   /var/tmptmpfs   relatime0   1



> And, also turn off logging?
If you like a logfile that's available till shutdown:
tmpfs   /var/logtmpfs   relatime0   1

Or disable rsyslogd .. I think it was this sequence:
# update-rc.d rsyslog disable 2
# update-rc.d rsyslog disable 3
# update-rc.d rsyslog disable 4
# update-rc.d rsyslog disable 5



> 
> Can anyone post a sample /etc/fstab as a hint as to what should it look like?
> 
> Thanks.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> All you need to do is putting this line in /etc/fstab:
> 
> tmpfs   /tmp    tmpfs   defaults,mode=1777  0 0

Seriously, yes, everyone running a system _just_ on flash media ought to 
be doing this and similar measures to reduce wear on the mass storage.

>   Then you go into runlevel 1, erase everything in /tmp, mount it and go
> back to runlevel 2 (or what you use on your RP3B).

I also recommend (while in single-user mode as the root user) doing this
in each of your system's mountpoint directories:

# touch NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE
# chattr +i NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE

That's saved me confusion quite a few times when I'm puzzled about one
of those directories unexpectedly lacking the expected files.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Rod Rodolico]

There is an old article at

http://wiki.linuxservertech.com/index.php?action=artikel=9=173

which may help you. I wrote it when I was booting servers from USB
Thumbdrives. Again, it is an older article so use some caution when you
review it. But, I have servers using thumbdrives that have been running
for 5+ years.

Rod

On 12/02/2018 04:41 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi everyone.
> 
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
> 
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
> 
> Can any good soul help, please?
> Thanks.
> ___
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> 

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Re: [DNG] packages.devuan.org is not updated for a long time

[Rob]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, 2 December 2018 18:27, Hleb Valoshka <375...@gmail.com> wrote:

> cat /etc/apt/sources.list
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main contrib non-free
>
> sudo apt update
> Hit:1 http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged ceres InRelease
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> 8 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.
>
> Those 8 are from the previous update made a week or two ago.
>
> lynx --dump http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ceres/main/
> [23]Contents-all.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:09
> 34
> [24]Contents-amd64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12
> 36760877
> [25]Contents-arm64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:15
> 35139206
> [26]Contents-armel.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:17
> 34457135
> [27]Contents-armhf.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:18
> 34888021
> [28]Contents-i386.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:20
> 36720025
> [29]Contents-source.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12
>
> host packages.roundr.devuan.org
> packages.roundr.devuan.org has address 5.196.38.18
>
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list has info.

Rob
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Bruce Ferrell]

On 12/2/18 2:41 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi everyone.

Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.

The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.

Can any good soul help, please?
Thanks.
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Yeah, this IS one of the issues around flash/SSD storage... They run fast and 
wear out faster.

My suggestion for a Raspberry PI is to use a USB disk and use the info at this 
link:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/msd.md

That will allow you to run Devuan from a USB drive attached to the PI and 
completely avoid the whole flash memory issue.


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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Simon Hobson]

Rowland Penny  wrote:

> If you could set up such a scenario, then yes, your way could be used,
> but there was a mention of a server. If you have a server, you usually
> get files saved and read, so how do you differentiate between user
> 'fred' from computer18 and 'fred' from computer23 ?

I did include the proviso that the training system handles recording progress 
etc. As I read it, each station loads the training system from the server - 
which could be just serving read-ony files, or it could be serving read-only 
files plus a database, or it could be serving the files plus running a database 
and a central management program that co-ordinates the training.

If there's a need to store user-specific files, then you are correct that 
having just the one user across all the seats won't work.

But I don't think we've been given enough detail to say where on the spectrum 
this system sits.

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[DNG] packages.devuan.org is not updated for a long time

[Hleb Valoshka]

cat /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main contrib non-free

sudo apt update
Hit:1 http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged ceres InRelease
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
8 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.

Those 8 are from the previous update made a week or two ago.

lynx --dump http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ceres/main/
[23]Contents-all.gz08-Oct-2018 10:09
  34
[24]Contents-amd64.gz  08-Oct-2018 10:12
36760877
[25]Contents-arm64.gz  08-Oct-2018 10:15
35139206
[26]Contents-armel.gz  08-Oct-2018 10:17
34457135
[27]Contents-armhf.gz  08-Oct-2018 10:18
34888021
[28]Contents-i386.gz   08-Oct-2018 10:20
36720025
[29]Contents-source.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12

host packages.roundr.devuan.org
packages.roundr.devuan.org has address 5.196.38.18
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[DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Edward Bartolo]

On 02/12/2018, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp  wrote:
[...]
>
> Do not use swap.
> Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp.
> Turn off logging.
> Mount / readonly.
> Use "noatime" mountoption.
>

How can I use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp?
And, also turn off logging?

Can anyone post a sample /etc/fstab as a hint as to what should it look like?

Thanks.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2018 at 12:06:03PM +0100, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> On 02-12-18 11:41, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> > The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> > cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> > how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> > the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.

> One dramatically sdcard saving option is to use noatime when mounting
> your sdcard in /etc/fstab like
> 
> /dev/mmcblk0p2  / ext4 defaults,noatime 0 0

Keeping the very concept of atime is _sabotage_.  It was one of the ideas
made when the world was young and when I/O was cheap compared to other
performance-related components.  You'd want to set noatime on every machine
you control.

Especially on:
* media with limited write cycles (<- you are here)
* thin storage
* CoW disk images
* filesystems with snapshots
* read caching

> It disables writing a timestamp when a file or directory has been
> accessed. Other options i know of are using JFFS2 made for flash kind of
> storage.

These days, I'd recommend f2fs -- much newer, faster, and doesn't differ
from a regular filesystem from a naive user's point of view.  And staying
naive saves your time.

> Using aufs or unionfs which in fact create a readonly fs with
> changes in RAM which can be write back to disk when your system shutdown
> in a orderly fashion.

Pretty risky, and requires non-negligible human effort.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Rowland Penny]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 14:28:25 +0100
Tomasz Kundera  wrote:

> You can still use NIS if you don't need the power (and complexity) of
> samba.
> 

NIS is a bit outdated and Samba isn't that complex from a Linux point
of view.

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 at 14:28, Tomasz Kundera wrote:
> You can still use NIS if you don't need the power (and complexity) of
> samba.


  As if NIS was simple...



Alessandro


> On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 9:40 PM Carl  > wrote:
>
> On 11/24/18 1:55 PM, g4sra wrote:
>
> > I would appreciate advice on the following situation
> >
> > I have several hosts of differing architectures or peripherals in a
> > training room (several training rooms actually but each are
> independent
> > of each other) which are supported by a server running the
> standard *NIX
> > network services DHCP, BIND etc. The server also has the training
> > application (which is single install license but multi-user)
> installed
> > on it .
> >
> > How should this training room be best implemented for
> reliability and
> > ease of maintenance ?
> That is a very general question. You'd have to ask more specific
> ones to
> get
>
> useful answers. How many nodes? Do you get to spec the hardware or
> just the
> software? Is the hosted application Windows-based? Web-based?
> Linux-based?
> Are these rooms used only for training on that one application, or
> is the
> app a Learning Management System that can launch several different
> courses?
> Are you asking only about server implementation, or also client? Etc.
> -- 
> Carl Fink
> c...@finknetwork.com 
>
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>
> -- 
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>
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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Tomasz Kundera]

You can still use NIS if you don't need the power (and complexity) of samba.

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 9:40 PM Carl  wrote:

> On 11/24/18 1:55 PM, g4sra wrote:
>
> > I would appreciate advice on the following situation
> >
> > I have several hosts of differing architectures or peripherals in a
> > training room (several training rooms actually but each are independent
> > of each other) which are supported by a server running the standard *NIX
> > network services DHCP, BIND etc. The server also has the training
> > application (which is single install license but multi-user) installed
> > on it .
> >
> > How should this training room be best implemented for reliability and
> > ease of maintenance ?
> That is a very general question. You'd have to ask more specific ones to
> get
>
> useful answers. How many nodes? Do you get to spec the hardware or just the
> software? Is the hosted application Windows-based? Web-based? Linux-based?
> Are these rooms used only for training on that one application, or is the
> app a Learning Management System that can launch several different courses?
> Are you asking only about server implementation, or also client? Etc.
> --
> Carl Fink
> c...@finknetwork.com
>
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>


-- 
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 12:16:34 +0100, Dr. wrote in message 
<201812021216.34883.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:

> Am Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2018 schrieb Edward Bartolo:
> > Hi everyone.
> > 
> > Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> > Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> > dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> > lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> > CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> > permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> > cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles
> > is reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown
> > away.
> > 
> > The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> > cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found
> > a how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files,
> > but the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
> > 
> > Can any good soul help, please?
> > Thanks.  
> 
> Do not use swap. 
> Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp. 
> Turn off logging. 

...or log to a log server.

> Mount / readonly. 
> Use "noatime" mountoption.


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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

On 02/12/18 on 13:08, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
>
> If you disable journalling on ext4 you can just as well mount it with
> ext2 afaik.
>
> Grtz
>
> Nick
>

  No, ext2 is significantly slower than a journal-less ext4 filesystem.

  This must be due mainly to the fact that ext4 uses an improved
block-allocator algorithm, one that merges the allocation of a series of
blocks to the same file in one run instead of $FILE_SIZE/$BLOCK_SIZE
runs.  I recently run a comparison test on an old 1GB USB pendrive
connected to a USB-2 port, here you are with the log:


[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ cat bin/bomb_filesystem.sh
#!/bin/dash

TESTROOT=/mnt/loop
MAXDIRS=100
MAXFILES=10

if mountpoint --quiet "$TESTROOT"
then I=0
 while test "$I" -lt "$MAXDIRS"
 do mkdir "$TESTROOT/Dir_$I" || break
    I=$((I+1))
 done
 I=0
 while test $I -lt "$MAXDIRS"
 do J=0
    while test $J -lt "$MAXFILES"
    do dd count=$((1024+16*J)) if=/dev/zero
of="$TESTROOT/Dir_$I/file_$J"
   J=$((J+1))
    done
    I=$((I+1))
 done
else echo "ERROR: \"$TESTROOT\" does not exist or is not a mountpoint" >&2
 exit 1
fi


[root@wkstn02 ~]# mkfs.ext2 /dev/sdb
[root@wkstn02 ~]# mount /dev/sdb /mnt/loop
[root@wkstn02 ~]# chown alessandro /mnt/loop


[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync)

real    10m35,149s
user    0m1,042s
sys 0m1,921s

[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ df /mnt/loop
File system Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/sdb    953M  541M    364M  60% /mnt/loop


[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (\rm -r /mnt/loop/Dir_* ; sync)

real    0m2,133s
user    0m0,009s
sys 0m0,076s

[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync)

real    11m10,261s
user    0m0,961s
sys 0m2,109s


[root@wkstn02 ~]# umount /dev/sdb
[root@wkstn02 ~]# mkfs.ext4 -O ^has_journal /dev/sdb
[root@wkstn02 ~]# mount /dev/sdb /mnt/loop
[root@wkstn02 ~]# chown alessandro /mnt/loop


[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync)

real    3m39,434s
user    0m1,024s
sys 0m1,950s

[alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (\rm -r /mnt/loop/Dir_* ; sync)

real    0m2,486s
user    0m0,002s
sys 0m0,082s


 

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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 02-12-18 13:01, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>
>
> Il 02/12/18 11:41, Edward Bartolo ha scritto:
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
>> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
>> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
>> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
>> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
>> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
>> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
>> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
>>
>> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
>> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
>> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
>> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
>>
>> Can any good soul help, please?
>> Thanks.
>
>
>   All you need to do is putting this line in /etc/fstab:
>
> tmpfs   /tmp    tmpfs   defaults,mode=1777  0 0
>
>
>   Then you go into runlevel 1, erase everything in /tmp, mount it and
> go back to runlevel 2 (or what you use on your RP3B).
>
>   Others have already suggested more ways you can reduce writes to
> your filesystems.  I would add, if your device's power source is
> backed by a battery and you use an ext4 filesystem, to format or mount
> it with:
>
>  1. journal disabled (nointegrity);
>  2. barriers disabled (nobarrier or barrier=0).
>
>
>   These mount options will increase the chance of data loss and
> filesystem corruption in the case of an abnormal filesystem close
> (system crash or sudden power loss), but significantly decrease the
> number of write operations on the ext4 filesystem during regular
> operation.
>
>
>
> Alessandro
>
>
>
> -- 
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> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
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If you disable journalling on ext4 you can just as well mount it with
ext2 afaik.

Grtz

Nick




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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Lars Noodén]

On 12/2/18 12:41 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> [snip]
> So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
> [snip]

Is it still under warranty?  If so you can get a replacement.

In addition to the tips already mentioned, under-provisioning helps a
bit too.

/Lars
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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Alessandro Selli]

Il 02/12/18 11:41, Edward Bartolo ha scritto:
> Hi everyone.
>
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
>
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
>
> Can any good soul help, please?
> Thanks.


  All you need to do is putting this line in /etc/fstab:

tmpfs   /tmp    tmpfs   defaults,mode=1777  0 0


  Then you go into runlevel 1, erase everything in /tmp, mount it and go
back to runlevel 2 (or what you use on your RP3B).

  Others have already suggested more ways you can reduce writes to your
filesystems.  I would add, if your device's power source is backed by a
battery and you use an ext4 filesystem, to format or mount it with:

 1. journal disabled (nointegrity);
 2. barriers disabled (nobarrier or barrier=0).


  These mount options will increase the chance of data loss and
filesystem corruption in the case of an abnormal filesystem close
(system crash or sudden power loss), but significantly decrease the
number of write operations on the ext4 filesystem during regular operation.



Alessandro



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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[ael]

On Sun, Dec 02, 2018 at 11:41:48AM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now

Just in case you are not aware of this, there is a huge market in fake
and substandard SD cards, often with the firmware modified to
fraudulently claim a larger capacity than the chips actually present.
That said, I don't think that they often fail into a read only mode.
The only time that I encountered that problem, the supplier replaced the
card.

sdtool (https://github.com/BertoldVdb/sdtool) may be useful if you don't
know about it.


I always check incoming cards with f3 (http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/)
which should detect fraudulent cards. Of course it uses up one
write/erase cycle, but that can't be helped.

So do you know that you have a genuine card purcahsed from a reliable
source?

Again, apologies if this is all old news.

ael

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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2018 schrieb Edward Bartolo:
> Hi everyone.
> 
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
> 
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
> 
> Can any good soul help, please?
> Thanks.

Do not use swap. 
Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp. 
Turn off logging. 
Mount / readonly. 
Use "noatime" mountoption.



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Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 02-12-18 11:41, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
> Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
> dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
> lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
> CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
> permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
> cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
> reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.
>
> The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
> cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
> how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
> the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.
>
> Can any good soul help, please?
> Thanks.
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One dramatically sdcard saving option is to use noatime when mounting
your sdcard in /etc/fstab like

/dev/mmcblk0p2  / ext4 defaults,noatime 0 0

It disables writing a timestamp when a file or directory has been
accessed. Other options i know of are using JFFS2 made for flash kind of
storage. Using aufs or unionfs which in fact create a readonly fs with
changes in RAM which can be write back to disk when your system shutdown
in a orderly fashion.

Grtz

Nick




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[DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi everyone.

Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with
Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was
dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long
lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD
CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now
permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory
cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is
reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away.

The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write
cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a
how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but
the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that.

Can any good soul help, please?
Thanks.
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Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question

[karl]

Roger:
> On 29/11/2018 12:57, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
...
> > Why not agree on a certain set of programs/libs that should be in /bin,
> > /sbin, and /lib, just to not break my and others packages. That set
> > don't need to cover all booting possibilities.
> 
> This is what we used to (try) to do, but we failed at it.
...

I think your goal was different than what mine is.

Since there are already support for an initrd kernel that supports 
general booting, my kernel/package don't have to cover that. It is 
sufficient that it covers a subset of the debians kernels capability.
And thus, there isn't a need to have binaries for all kind of 
filesystems and setupts in /. All I'm asking for is to have a common
subset available in /bin, /lib and /sbin.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
Aspö Data
Lilla Aspö 148
S-742 94 Östhammar
Sweden


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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Rowland Penny]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 10:07:23 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> Rowland Penny  wrote:
> 
> >> Indeed, but this scenario is for a fixed setup where the users (28
> >> of them) are setup once and then there is no further user
> >> maintenance going forward. In such a scenario, there's little
> >> point in going for the complexity of setting up AD - as you say, a
> >> one-off setup of the users in Samba. The clients could potentially
> >> be configured to auto-login to the desktop (or training system) on
> >> boot so the users don't even need to know about users. Easy for
> >> users, no security.
> > 
> > Been there, done that, but with that many computers it becomes a
> > struggle, the users want to use different computers and cannot
> > because they are not set up on that computer, believe me, if you
> > are setting something up of this size, a domain is the way to go.
> 
> Sorry, I think you missed the point of the scenario I was talking
> about. This one is where the users don't have their own login - they
> all use just the same login, so can sit down at any machine and use
> the single login that's configured on the machine, and there's no
> need for any user management on each machine other than setting up
> the one user login. That might be appropriate if the training system
> handles user management etc.
> 
> Otherwise, I agree with you.
> 

If you could set up such a scenario, then yes, your way could be used,
but there was a mention of a server. If you have a server, you usually
get files saved and read, so how do you differentiate between user
'fred' from computer18 and 'fred' from computer23 ?

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Simon Hobson]

Rowland Penny  wrote:

>> Indeed, but this scenario is for a fixed setup where the users (28 of
>> them) are setup once and then there is no further user maintenance
>> going forward. In such a scenario, there's little point in going for
>> the complexity of setting up AD - as you say, a one-off setup of the
>> users in Samba. The clients could potentially be configured to
>> auto-login to the desktop (or training system) on boot so the users
>> don't even need to know about users. Easy for users, no security.
> 
> Been there, done that, but with that many computers it becomes a
> struggle, the users want to use different computers and cannot because
> they are not set up on that computer, believe me, if you are setting
> something up of this size, a domain is the way to go.

Sorry, I think you missed the point of the scenario I was talking about. This 
one is where the users don't have their own login - they all use just the same 
login, so can sit down at any machine and use the single login that's 
configured on the machine, and there's no need for any user management on each 
machine other than setting up the one user login. That might be appropriate if 
the training system handles user management etc.

Otherwise, I agree with you.


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Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Samstag, 1. Dezember 2018 schrieb Rowland Penny:
> On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 22:17:58 +
> Simon Hobson  wrote:
> 
> > Rowland Penny  wrote:
> > 
> > >> I think what Roland was getting at here is the number of users and
> > >> how they are dealt with makes a huge difference.
> > >> 
> > >> At one extreme, you have 28 seats, each one of them has a user such
> > >> as "user1", and you can simply use /etc/passwd & /etc/shadow to
> > >> manage that single user one each seat. You could probably build one
> > >> software image and simply image all 28 machines with that one
> > >> image.
> > > 
> > > This would entail running Samba as a workgroup and, once you get
> > > past about 10 machines, it get unwieldy, you have to create the
> > > exact same users on every machine you want them to connect to and
> > > keep their passwords in sync. This can rapidly become a nightmare,
> > > this applies if you decide to go with NFS instead.
> > 
> > Indeed, but this scenario is for a fixed setup where the users (28 of
> > them) are setup once and then there is no further user maintenance
> > going forward. In such a scenario, there's little point in going for
> > the complexity of setting up AD - as you say, a one-off setup of the
> > users in Samba. The clients could potentially be configured to
> > auto-login to the desktop (or training system) on boot so the users
> > don't even need to know about users. Easy for users, no security.
> 
> Been there, done that, but with that many computers it becomes a
> struggle, the users want to use different computers and cannot because
> they are not set up on that computer, believe me, if you are setting
> something up of this size, a domain is the way to go.
> It also helps if a computer decides to turn its toes up and die, you
> just wheel a spare machine out and use that instead.

I usally use a custom "installer" that pulls a disk image on the new machines 
and a little script that syncs the users/groups on boot, and that's it. No  
NFS, no AD, just rsync over ssh. In my scenarios the users shut down theit 
maschines after logout or the sync script is run fron xdm.

> 
> > 
> > >> At the other extreme, every person has their own login and can use
> > >> any seat at any time (and there are hundreds or even thousands of
> > >> them) so that progress/results can be logged for each person. In
> > >> this case, you will really need a centralised user management such
> > >> as Roland described using Samba & AD. You could still image each
> > >> machine from one common image - but you'll need to do some
> > >> post-imaging setup to give each machine a unique set of
> > >> identifiers etc for the AD to work properly.
> > > 
> > > If you run Samba as an AD DC and join the clients to this, you only
> > > have to create the users & groups once and the password is only
> > > stored in one place, the DC.
> > 
> > Exactly - for many users, and especially if the users are dynamic,
> > then it's the only sane way to do it.
> > 
> > And it also means that each user has their own personal login & home
> > directory so (if it isn't stored in a database that's part of the
> > training system) there is somewhere for the system to store each
> > users progress etc.
> > 
> > Which leads to another question ... Does the training system itself
> > have a user directory etc ? This also has an impact on the solution
> > chosen.
> > 
> > If the training system has a logon for each user and stores (eg)
> > progress information in it's own database, then it makes little sense
> > to also configure each user separately to the OS (eg using Samba &
> > AD). Just setup the machines as above with a single user and manage
> > users via the training system. On the other hand, if the database
> > (the schema, not just the DB engine) is "open" enough then it may be
> > possible to use that as an authentication source - giving each user
> > their own OS level login which is the same as the traingin system
> > login, but using just the one database.
> >
> 
> It was my understanding this was to be on a separate network.
>  
> > Many possibilities - the "best" for any setup depends on answers to
> > these sorts of questions.
> > 
> 
> Personally, (and I repeat, I am biased), I would run 2 Samba AD DC's
> and at least one Samba Unix domain member as fileserver.
> 
> Rowland
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