Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
Am 24. April 2019 00:24:56 MESZ schrieb Steve Litt : >On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:22:44 +0200 >Didier Kryn wrote: > >> Hello Devuaneers. >> >> I have put on https://git.devuan.org/kryn/hopman an application >> to let mount/umount/open filesystems on hotplug mass storage devises >> such as USB sticks or SD cards. This is a replacements for features >> provided by Desktop Environments. > >[snip] > >OUT-standing > >I didn't have a ready to use Devuan VM, so I just installed it on Void >Linux. It worked perfectly, once I understood the deal. > >A lot of the stuff I report here might not happen on Devuan, but then >again I might find some errors or maloptimizations that might be edge >cases in Devuan. > >Anyway, I followed your compile instructions and it worked perfectly. >But when I ran hopman, I got a "Bus error" message running it as either >slitt or root. So I touched /home/slitt/.hopmanrc, got past the bus >error, but got another error. Infatiguable, I copied the entirety >of /etc/default/hopmanrc to ~/.hopmanrc, and the thing began to work. > >For those of you who haven't tried hopman yet, let me define "work". >You run hopman on the command line, and it sits there and spins. No >gui. *Until* you insert a thumb drive. Then, all of a sudden, the gui >pops up with the thumb's label. Left click the label line and you get >choices to open in filemanager, open in terminal, mount, or eject. >Regardless of what you set EjectHelper to in .hopmanrc, trying to eject >always errors saying "No command helper". This is true even if I set >the EjectHelper to the same string as UmountHelper in ~/.hopmanrc. I >have a hunch something's hard coded that shouldn't be. One of the >source >files (config.c I think) mentions there's no known EjectHelper. > >Hopman didn't show up anywhere on my lxpanel: I have a feeling that was >a design decision so hopman doesn't need to know the intracies of each >panel it interfaces with. > >Bottom line, a running Hopman shows a GUI window *only* if thumb drives >or USB harddisks are plugged in. > >Like almost every other mounter software, hopman gets itself in a crazy >state if you yank the thumb drive out before unmounting it. In this >crazy state, it tells you you can't unmount it because it's in use. >This also happened on my inotifywait based mounter (which another >Devuanner improved substantially). I'll research this more. > >I'm trying to create a runit run file for hopman and am having a little >trouble. I'll report back later. > >One more thing: Hopman is wonderful software. Very few dependencies, >easy as hell to compile. No ./configure step. No BS. The source is >fairly easy to read. It does one thing and does it well. This is how >all software should be written. > Thank you for the review! I had the feeling this would be quite nice :-). If I may recommend, open 3 issues on gdo (on phone, about to sleep, else I'd do it): 1. Improve documentation / UX by communicating the "No GUI until you plug sth" behaviour on stdout. 2. Either gracefully treat a packing rc dir or to create it automatically or just to have a good stderr message 3. Document the misbehaviour when users... Misbehave (okay, that was a bad joke). I think, 1 and 2 are easily actionable and, from what you described, would greatly improve the UX. 3 may be trickier. -- Evilham___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:22:44 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > Hello Devuaneers. > > I have put on https://git.devuan.org/kryn/hopman an application > to let mount/umount/open filesystems on hotplug mass storage devises > such as USB sticks or SD cards. This is a replacements for features > provided by Desktop Environments. [snip] OUT-standing I didn't have a ready to use Devuan VM, so I just installed it on Void Linux. It worked perfectly, once I understood the deal. A lot of the stuff I report here might not happen on Devuan, but then again I might find some errors or maloptimizations that might be edge cases in Devuan. Anyway, I followed your compile instructions and it worked perfectly. But when I ran hopman, I got a "Bus error" message running it as either slitt or root. So I touched /home/slitt/.hopmanrc, got past the bus error, but got another error. Infatiguable, I copied the entirety of /etc/default/hopmanrc to ~/.hopmanrc, and the thing began to work. For those of you who haven't tried hopman yet, let me define "work". You run hopman on the command line, and it sits there and spins. No gui. *Until* you insert a thumb drive. Then, all of a sudden, the gui pops up with the thumb's label. Left click the label line and you get choices to open in filemanager, open in terminal, mount, or eject. Regardless of what you set EjectHelper to in .hopmanrc, trying to eject always errors saying "No command helper". This is true even if I set the EjectHelper to the same string as UmountHelper in ~/.hopmanrc. I have a hunch something's hard coded that shouldn't be. One of the source files (config.c I think) mentions there's no known EjectHelper. Hopman didn't show up anywhere on my lxpanel: I have a feeling that was a design decision so hopman doesn't need to know the intracies of each panel it interfaces with. Bottom line, a running Hopman shows a GUI window *only* if thumb drives or USB harddisks are plugged in. Like almost every other mounter software, hopman gets itself in a crazy state if you yank the thumb drive out before unmounting it. In this crazy state, it tells you you can't unmount it because it's in use. This also happened on my inotifywait based mounter (which another Devuanner improved substantially). I'll research this more. I'm trying to create a runit run file for hopman and am having a little trouble. I'll report back later. One more thing: Hopman is wonderful software. Very few dependencies, easy as hell to compile. No ./configure step. No BS. The source is fairly easy to read. It does one thing and does it well. This is how all software should be written. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Problem with libssl1.1/beowulf
I am trying to install libssl1.1 on beowulf, using tor+http, and I'm getting a 404 on the redirected .deb: Err:1 tor+http://devuanfwojg73k6r.onion/merged beowulf/main amd64 libssl1.1 amd64 1.1.1b-1 404 Not Found E: Failed to fetch tor+http://vwakviie2ienjx6t.onion/debian/pool/main/o/openssl/libssl1.1_1.1.1b-1_amd64.deb 404 Not Found Thanks for any help, Luigi ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 09:15:12AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-04-22 01:18, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > > > > If I was to lose faith in Devuan, which I'm now invested in, then I > > would consider the following, especially ahead of Debian (unless I > > wished to return with systemd). > > > > https://mxlinux.org/ > > > > FYI . . . this thread is rather interesting: > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=696745#p696745 > > I assume that AntiX would continue on its current track. Interesting that someone in Debian is providing practical advice about not using systemd. Also interesting that he is afraid to report problems lest that cause removal of nonsystemd init systems. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
+1 -- Ismael Devuan User: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan - Original Message - From: "Ralph Ronnquist via Dng" To: "devuan developers internal list" ; "dng" Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2019 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan. Dan, I think you have been invaluable to the Devuan efforts, and I hope you will keep contributing, as well as remain caretaker. Ralph. Daniel Reurich wrote on 23/4/19 11:30 am: Dear friends, fellow users and contributors to Devuan. I have come to a point of personal crisis with regards to my involvement in Devuan. I have given a great deal of time to bringing Devuan to where it is today. Of late have my efforts have been largely in the background in maintaining the build system as well as advocacy, and helping to maintain some packages, and working towards adding support for the ppc64el architecture particularly for the new TalosII hardware. Recent events such as the fallout from the April 1 joke, which I perceived it as a threat to Devuans image particularly with respect to the appearance of security, and my poorly expression of those concerns led me to be at odds with some of my fellow contributors and caretakers. In particular I contributed to making another valued member, and a fellow valuable contributor to Devuan, feel that he could no longer find joy in contributing to Devuan any further resulting in his leaving our community. I have apologised for this and continue to regret not having found a better mechanism for expressing my concerns in a more constructive way. The latest issue at hand and the one precipitating this personal crisis is with respect to the failure of ci.devuan.org. In this matter I took actions that although were done in good faith and with all due care, resulted in exacerbating an already broken server by trying to reboot it an action which failed and left the server broken and inaccessible. I rebooted under the assumption that the person that hosts that server for us would reasonably be available to attend to it if it in the unlikely event it failed to boot. I was wrong and should have checked he was available first. I am now at the point where given this latest assault on my character and contributions by Jaromil, that I must honestly question whether I continue to be useful to this community and Devuan as a distribution. It is now up to you to decide whether or not I should be holding such a venerable positions as caretaker, infrastructure maintainer and developer, and package maintainer of many Devuan packages remains justifiable and acceptable to this community. My reason for bringing this to the attention of the broad community is because Jaromil, one of my fellow caretakers has repeatedly taken extreme exception to my actions and communications to the extent where he has: - called for my stepping down as caretaker at least 3 times. - implied that I am incompetent in my administration of the devuan infrastructure I have been co-maintaining for the last 3 or 4 years, in particular the build system and until recently the packaging systems. - claimed that I act with impunity and entirely disregard the need for consultation on major decisions. - threatened me in private emails to wage war against me and destroy my reputation in this community and by implication the broader ICT, linux and open source communities within which I operate and make my living. and many other things. Therefore, I feel that unless the broad community of users and developers of Devuan continue to have and express confidence in my abilities to continue to be a caretaker and valued contributor to Devuan, that I must indeed step down as caretaker and cease contributing to this project as per Jaromils repeatedly expressed desires. I am extremely sad at having reached this point and recognize that this communication will itself further erode confidence in Devuan as a distribution. I do not want this, but I can no longer continue in the face of such extreme opposition to my efforts to contribute to what I believe is a fine and necessary project that I have come to rely on for my business and am deeply invested in. Devuan belongs to the community and that community must always hold the power to decide who it will entrust as it's leaders and contributors. Should you the community decide it is time for me to leave, I will do my best to take the time to hand over properly my responsibilities and share my deep knowledge to those chosen by you the community to replace me in an orderly fashion and then fade quietly away. Warm regards, Centurion_Dan. ___ devuan-dev internal mailing list devuan-...@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-dev ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
> On 24 Apr 2019, at 01:06, Didier Kryn wrote: > >> Le 23/04/2019 à 13:22, Edward Bartolo via Dng a écrit : >> Making it a Debian package should be easy. Use dh_make to create a >> 'debian' subdirectory with the necessary Debian control files. Then, >> when that is ready build the debian packages using 'gbp buildpackage'. >> Both commands should be run in the source's top directory. > > > Thanks Edward. > > ' gbp buildpackage' fails because hopman-1.0 isnot a git directory. The > git directory is actually one level higher in my case. > > I need a method not relying on git. > > Here is what I tried before. dh_make works fine, no problem with it. > > Then I tried dpkg-buildpackage but it failed (I don'tremember for sure > why, maybe because of the absence of a gpg signature). > > Then I tried 'debuild -us -uc' and it did produce a .deb file with the > amd64 extension in the name, which is what I expected, but, when I installed > the package with 'dpkg -i', it installed a few files which are present in all > debian packages, but none of the usefull files this package should provide > (executable, manpage, config file, icon and launcher). > > The matter is rather complicated and I only tried recipes :~) > > Didier May I suggest looking at this reference? Apologies if you have already seen it. https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dother.en.html It lists the various files under the debian/ directory and what they are used for. Eg. Installing manpages, init scripts, readme, creating symlinks on install, pre/postinst, etc. I am using the command “dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -i -I” for building the packages. Also using regular “dch” for the changelog as my git repository is not in the required “debian format” for “gbp”. HTH —Tom___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
Le 23/04/2019 à 13:22, Edward Bartolo via Dng a écrit : Making it a Debian package should be easy. Use dh_make to create a 'debian' subdirectory with the necessary Debian control files. Then, when that is ready build the debian packages using 'gbp buildpackage'. Both commands should be run in the source's top directory. Thanks Edward. ' gbp buildpackage' fails because hopman-1.0 isnot a git directory. The git directory is actually one level higher in my case. I need a method not relying on git. Here is what I tried before. dh_make works fine, no problem with it. Then I tried dpkg-buildpackage but it failed (I don'tremember for sure why, maybe because of the absence of a gpg signature). Then I tried 'debuild -us -uc' and it did produce a .deb file with the amd64 extension in the name, which is what I expected, but, when I installed the package with 'dpkg -i', it installed a few files which are present in all debian packages, but none of the usefull files this package should provide (executable, manpage, config file, icon and launcher). The matter is rather complicated and I only tried recipes :~) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
On 4/23/19 2:22 PM, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > Making it a Debian package should be easy. Use dh_make to create a > 'debian' subdirectory with the necessary Debian control files. Then, > when that is ready build the debian packages using 'gbp buildpackage'. > Both commands should be run in the source's top directory. also in a similar situation and could use some help with debian packaging for git.devuan.org. not a dev really, just trying to make some packages work without-f*ckin-systemd. so thanks for that, will try it out. d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:05:55 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message <20190423100555.a5qywvfc57x4h...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > "A leader is best > When people barely know he exists > Of a good leader, who talks little, > When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, > They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' > ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching ..with good self driven people, it's more like pointing them "That way!" and knowing when to get out of their way. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] apt-cacher-ng
[ Sorry for private email, but it seems this email somehow have lost already two times. ] Hello! Could one of Devuan developers review git.devuan.org/kaction/apt-cacher-ng and add it to CI? -- Note, that I send and fetch email in batch, once every 24 hours. If matter is urgent, try https://t.me/kaction -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
Making it a Debian package should be easy. Use dh_make to create a 'debian' subdirectory with the necessary Debian control files. Then, when that is ready build the debian packages using 'gbp buildpackage'. Both commands should be run in the source's top directory. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
Didier Kryn writes: Hello Devuaneers. I have put on https://git.devuan.org/kryn/hopman an application to let mount/umount/open filesystems on hotplug mass storage devises such as USB sticks or SD cards. This is a replacements for features provided by Desktop Environments. It only depends on a linux kernel version newer than 2.2.26 and the GTK+-2 library, plus helper commands to mount/umount/open the filesystems, such as pmount/pumount, thunar and xfce4-terminal. That's great, thank you. The git repository contains a description of the project, plus a directory containing the source and makefiles. To instal: git-clone the project, then: cd hopman/hopman-1.0 make && make install # You must be root to install make cleanall Installed files: /usr/bin/hopman, /etc/default/hopmanrc, /usr/share/man/man8/hopman.8.gz,, /usr/share/pixmap/hopman.png, /usr/share/applications/hopman.desktop I tried to make it a Debian package, but with little success. I need help for that. I hope someone can devote some time to help with this. I also need help to remove from the gitlab a previous, primitive version which was named partmon. I transfered that repository to my user on gdo and if there are no complains I'll delete it in a couple weeks, I hope that's acceptable. -- Evilham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] New application ready to test: hopman
Hello Devuaneers. I have put on https://git.devuan.org/kryn/hopman an application to let mount/umount/open filesystems on hotplug mass storage devises such as USB sticks or SD cards. This is a replacements for features provided by Desktop Environments. It only depends on a linux kernel version newer than 2.2.26 and the GTK+-2 library, plus helper commands to mount/umount/open the filesystems, such as pmount/pumount, thunar and xfce4-terminal. The git repository contains a description of the project, plus a directory containing the source and makefiles. To instal: git-clone the project, then: cd hopman/hopman-1.0 make && make install # You must be root to install make cleanall Installed files: /usr/bin/hopman, /etc/default/hopmanrc, /usr/share/man/man8/hopman.8.gz,, /usr/share/pixmap/hopman.png, /usr/share/applications/hopman.desktop I tried to make it a Debian package, but with little success. I need help for that. I also need help to remove from the gitlab a previous, primitive version which was named partmon. Thanks. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:38:00AM +0200, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: > On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 09:10 +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > > > Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up > > in > > public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All > > his > > past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will > > be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in > > favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting > > Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful > > caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and > > concerns before the project's health. > > Sorry Jaromil, > > I don't agree with you. Both Dan and Katolaz should be part of the > caretakers group. What bout nextime, is he still active? And what are > your contributions to the project as a whole? > Just to clarify, and with a hope to stop this nonsense: I decided to take a leave from Devuan all by myself, not because anybody asked me to do that (if anybody asked me repeatedly to leave that was Dan, not Jaromil or anybody else, but those particular requests were irrelevant for my decision). As I have already asked in this list, if you care about Devuan please just stop the drama and use the spare time you have to help Devuan concretely. Just close your email clients, and come back in 24/48 hours, when you have decided how you can contribute to Devuan. Sometimes not answering an email is just much more productive. The rest is useless rubbish. Counting individual contributions to a voluntary project is totally pointless: since there is no price tag on "one hour of voluntary work", then a voluntary contribution of one hour is as important and as valuable as 1000 hours of voluntary contribution. Noone can ask a volunteer to work more, or to work less, or to work at all, because a volunteer is a free man/woman devoted to a cause. Devuan is made by a community of voluntaries, not by single egos. Making contributions as much as possible *invisible*, anonymising, hiding, de-personalising, collectivising, this is the only way through IMHO, the only way to let a community shine. If anything will last, it will be Devuan as a whole, not any of the volunteers who have put it into existence. "A leader is best When people barely know he exists Of a good leader, who talks little, When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching HND The last humble servant -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Debian 9.9 point release includes debian-installer rebuild (was Re: Kernel modules not found during Beowulf install)
Hi all, Olaf Meeuwissen writes: > Hi Dan, > > Olaf Meeuwissen writes: > >> Hi Dan, >> >> Daniel Reurich writes: >> >>> I will kick off a rebuild of debian-installer now. >> >> Thanks! > > It's been 10 days since and I still haven't seen updated installers on > pkgmaster. Where should I look, if not at > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/*/main/installer-$arch/ > > with a * wildcard of beowulf or ceres? > > Thanks in advance, Off-list I've been informed that the CI server mishap delayed things and that a new installer would be something for after Easter. Still staying tuned. In the mean time, Debian announced[1] a new point release for 2019-04-27 that includes a rebuild of debian-installer. Looks like that might affect the Devuan installer. [1]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-stable-announce/2019/04/msg0.html Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 09:10 +0200, Jaromil wrote: > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > > > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up > in > public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All > his > past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will > be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in > favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting > Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful > caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and > concerns before the project's health. Sorry Jaromil, I don't agree with you. Both Dan and Katolaz should be part of the caretakers group. What bout nextime, is he still active? And what are your contributions to the project as a whole? Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] In the words of Rodney King...
In the words of Rodney King (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King) : Can't we all get along? Can't we all put away our pea shooters, stop accusing each other, stop threatening to quit, stop quitting, come back and work on a huge pillar of the world's ability to use GNU/Linux without systemd? Is there anyone who doesn't remember the heartache of late 2014, when Debian went systemd, it appeared Redhat owned the world, and we might have no choice? When the Veteran Unix Administrators' threat to fork Debian sounded like bluff and bravado? Show of hands, who wants to go back to that world, where you were praying systemd didn't invade BSD (There are many Benno Rices in the world), and actually contemplating Mac if systemd really ran the board? What, no hands? I didn't think so: Those were awful times. Don't let your actions bring back those times. Every accusation, every threat to quit the project, every actual quit from the project, everyone who *simply must* translate their hurt feelings into anti-Devuan rhetoric, consider that your post just might be the straw that brakes the camel's back. How would you feel if your actions threw us over the edge into a no-Devuan world? In a world that much closer to systemd hegemony? Might your conscience hurt? Might your reputation be tarnished? A dangerous joke in poor taste was apologized for. Rules are now in place so it will never happen again. Show's over. Can we please stop discussing it? For the good of everyone who wants to control their own computer, can I please make this one little request: Can't we all get along? SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org):
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay.
>
> Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up in
> public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All his
> past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will
> be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in
> favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting
> Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful
> caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and
> concerns before the project's health.
I have great respect for your good judgement, Jaromil, and IMO your
words to Dan about ci.devuan.org recovery were judicious and wise, even
though they included (justifiable) annoyance. I'm definitely _not_
going to say you're mistaken, in the above. In particular, yes, sure,
IMO Dan really should _not_ have escalated to two project mailing lists
(Dng + devuan-dev) without working more in private to resolve metters,
first, and you're certainly right that caretakers not doing that is a
problem.
Mostly what I'm saying is that the previously detailed interactions are
fixable: I believe I'm seeing a communication antipattern familiar to
me from my _own_ past errors. And I'm pleading for some tolerance while
seeing if that might be fixed, recognising that we're all flawed and
sometimes fall into avoidable pitfalls, where we have difficulty heeding
the First Rule of Holes. ('If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.')
I'm going to tell a story, and, just to make sure I don't commit the sin
of assigning myself a heroic role, I'll confess to a damning flaw that
was very damaging in this story: I tend to (in a rhetorical sense)
corner people, by which I mean mercilessly highlight in public their
having taken an unreasonable position and confront them, heedless of the
human tendency to 'double-down' when confronted, and go transrational.
For almost two decades, I was a member of the Board of Directors of my
local guild of system administrators, a non-profit corporation named
BayLISA (created in the 1990s as the San Francisco Bay Area independent
group inspired by USENIX's Large Installation System Administration
Conference). Around 2005, which if memory serves was during my second
two-year term, one of BayLISA's ongoing irritations was a person on our
mailing lists named Richard Childers, who first kept posting impassioned
attacks against Oracle Corporation and then started demanding admission
to the baylisa-women mailing list, claiming BayLISA would be violating
(uspecified) anti-discrimination laws if he were denied membership to a
forum for female system administrators, particularly since (he asserted)
this was his entitlement as a BayLISA member.
The other members of the Board, including BayLISA's President, whom I'll
anonymise (using cryptography's naming convention) as 'Alice', were
inclined to give in to Childers's blustering. I wrote to them, though,
and said 'Hang on, let me have a go at this.' I wrote a polite note to
Childers, CC'ed to the Board, asking what specific legal obligation he
believed BayLISA to be under that obliged us to give him admission to a
mailing list deliberately open only to women. I gave him a succinct
four-paragraph summary of all the USA and California anti-discrimination
statutes I'd researched, showing that none of them applied to BayLISA.
Last, to close that e-mail, I mentioned that, in my capacity as
BayLISA's Treasurer, I had reviewed our records for the past ~15 years
of BayLISA's existence, and found no evidence that he'd at any time been
a dues-paying BayLISA member. Was this correct, or had I missed
something? Mr. Childers, being what one would technically call a
'nutcase', exploded quite wonderfully with non-sequitur personal
attacks, which I considered to have made my point perfectly.
However, at this point, the real trouble began. A fellow Board member,
whom I'll pseudonymise following cryptography's naming convention as
'Bob', suddenly seemed very upset on the Board of Directors mailing
list. And this is where my damning personal flaw became a problem.
At this point in the story, I must also briefly describe a legal problem
BayLISA then had, that I'd recently discovered and brought to the
Board's attention: BayLISA had entrusted (without checking) to a
professional accountant doing its tax filings to government regulators.
Having (unlike everyone else on the Board) a background in accounting
and finance, I'd double-checked our corporate status with the state of
California, and found our corporation had been _suspended_ for lack of
required filings. So, I was in the middle of repairing that lapse, and
had strongly advised the Board to be careful to exercise legal caution
while our corporate 'liabiiity shield' was non-existent during
that suspension of our corporate status.
With
Re: [DNG] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Dan, I think you have been invaluable to the Devuan efforts, and I hope you will keep contributing, as well as remain caretaker. Ralph. Daniel Reurich wrote on 23/4/19 11:30 am: > Dear friends, fellow users and contributors to Devuan. > > I have come to a point of personal crisis with regards to my involvement > in Devuan. I have given a great deal of time to bringing Devuan to > where it is today. Of late have my efforts have been largely in the > background in maintaining the build system as well as advocacy, and > helping to maintain some packages, and working towards adding support > for the ppc64el architecture particularly for the new TalosII hardware. > > Recent events such as the fallout from the April 1 joke, which I > perceived it as a threat to Devuans image particularly with respect to > the appearance of security, and my poorly expression of those concerns > led me to be at odds with some of my fellow contributors and caretakers. > In particular I contributed to making another valued member, and a > fellow valuable contributor to Devuan, feel that he could no longer find > joy in contributing to Devuan any further resulting in his leaving our > community. I have apologised for this and continue to regret not having > found a better mechanism for expressing my concerns in a more > constructive way. > > The latest issue at hand and the one precipitating this personal crisis > is with respect to the failure of ci.devuan.org. In this matter I took > actions that although were done in good faith and with all due care, > resulted in exacerbating an already broken server by trying to reboot it > an action which failed and left the server broken and inaccessible. I > rebooted under the assumption that the person that hosts that server for > us would reasonably be available to attend to it if it in the unlikely > event it failed to boot. I was wrong and should have checked he was > available first. > > I am now at the point where given this latest assault on my character > and contributions by Jaromil, that I must honestly question whether I > continue to be useful to this community and Devuan as a distribution. > > It is now up to you to decide whether or not I should be holding such a > venerable positions as caretaker, infrastructure maintainer and > developer, and package maintainer of many Devuan packages remains > justifiable and acceptable to this community. > > My reason for bringing this to the attention of the broad community is > because Jaromil, one of my fellow caretakers has repeatedly taken > extreme exception to my actions and communications to the extent where > he has: > - called for my stepping down as caretaker at least 3 times. > - implied that I am incompetent in my administration of the devuan > infrastructure I have been co-maintaining for the last 3 or 4 years, in > particular the build system and until recently the packaging systems. > - claimed that I act with impunity and entirely disregard the need for > consultation on major decisions. > - threatened me in private emails to wage war against me and destroy my > reputation in this community and by implication the broader ICT, linux > and open source communities within which I operate and make my living. > and many other things. > > Therefore, I feel that unless the broad community of users and > developers of Devuan continue to have and express confidence in my > abilities to continue to be a caretaker and valued contributor to > Devuan, that I must indeed step down as caretaker and cease contributing > to this project as per Jaromils repeatedly expressed desires. > > I am extremely sad at having reached this point and recognize that this > communication will itself further erode confidence in Devuan as a > distribution. I do not want this, but I can no longer continue in the > face of such extreme opposition to my efforts to contribute to what I > believe is a fine and necessary project that I have come to rely on for > my business and am deeply invested in. > > Devuan belongs to the community and that community must always hold the > power to decide who it will entrust as it's leaders and contributors. > > Should you the community decide it is time for me to leave, I will do my > best to take the time to hand over properly my responsibilities and > share my deep knowledge to those chosen by you the community to replace > me in an orderly fashion and then fade quietly away. > > Warm regards, > Centurion_Dan. > > > ___ > devuan-dev internal mailing list > devuan-...@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-dev > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Anno domini 2019 Tue, 23 Apr 12:32:29 +0900 mett scripsit: > On 2019年4月23日 11:24:39 JST, Rick Moen wrote: > >Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > > >I've seen only the public portions of these text-format interactions, > >but think I'm seen enough data to assess the basic situation. Although > >I'm a friendly outsider to Devuan Project governance, I've seen many > >similar destructive spirals in open source projects over many decades: > >It starts with well-intended individual actions taken without adequate > >consultation, which cause reactions from other parties who feel taken > >by > >surprise. When those reactions are in e-mail, or (slightly worse) in > >e-mail with a large audience such as on mailing lists, then a > >communication anti-pattern tends to take hold that drives the parties > >into confrontation, frustration, and perception of harm that could have > >been resolved if the parties had switched to more-interactive, > >more-personal, and less public means of communication -- such as voice > >telephone or Internet video conferencing. > > > >As to Denis/Jaromil's comments about the ci.devuan.org failure, yes, he > >spoke sharply to you about some of your initial steps, but, if you > >review what he said, the main points were that (1) better consultation > >should have occurred throughout and (2) he asked you to wait before > >taking additional action. IMO, if you set aside for a moment the tinge > >of personal accusation you're perceiving in what he wrote, you will see > >that those are reasonable comments from a project-management > >perspective. > > > >Back when I was manager of a department of system administrators, I > >told my employees that I'd shield them from problems visited onto our > >department from other parts of the firm and help their professional > >development, and in return I asked and expected two things: (1) > >Do their assigned share of our work, but equally important, (2) make > >sure I was never blindsided about anything they did, i.e., if there > >was bad news in which they were involved, I expected to hear it from > >them first and immediately, not later or from anyone else. > > > >Devuan Project of course differs in being less-hierarchical not to > >mention volunteer, but good and timely communication is every bit as > >important if not more so, and the antipatterns I've seen lately appear > >to _all_ involve failure to do timely consultation, and then reliance > >on > >known-problematic _asynchronous_ communication methods such as e-mail / > >mailing lists that are inadequate to the situation and tend to worsen > >interpersonal conflict, avoidably. > > > >Devuan has suffered enough loss, and I wish everyone would please > >de-escalate and to understand that e-mail is not the right solution for > >all communication needs, especially where there is risk of > >contentiousness and hard feelings. > > > >And you belong here, and would be greatly missed. > > > > > >-- > >Cheers, "I am not a vegetarian because I love > >animals; > >Rick MoenI am a vegetarian because I hate > >plants." > >r...@linuxmafia.com-- A. Whitney > >Brown > >McQ! (4x80) > >___ > >Dng mailing list > >Dng@lists.dyne.org > >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > Hi, > I second what Rick Moen said. > > Centurion_Dan, please stay. > > And guys, relax please. > > If you don t, the situation won t > defuse. > > Yoroshiku! +1 from me. There's always a point of crysis in any project, sooner or later. Pressure builds up, involvement gets personal. Take a deep breath, look at what you have acomplished, be proud of it. Face the fact that humans are complicated beeings, and you are one of them. Get some booze, yell at each other, have a good fight ... and probably have a good read, I suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_and_the_Great_Divide Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up in public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All his past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and concerns before the project's health. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019, Daniel Reurich wrote: > I am now at the point where given this latest assault on my character > and contributions by Jaromil, that I must honestly question whether I > continue to be useful to this community and Devuan as a distribution. I believe there was no assault from my side. Anyone decently trained in text analysis may correct me: my assertions on the outage provoked by lack of coordination have not been judgemental. I have just denoted facts and doing my best to be fair to other caretakers, who also deserve holiday periods. Also I believe this is not the place to air all what we think of each other actions and possible solutions, but devuan-dev. I am a confused by the fact you keep either by mistake or by intention to post this personalising drama here. All summed up I think that if we cannot trust a caretaker to keep all this drama inside then we also have a third problematic action to take into account. Noone needs drama, we need a working Devuan. The 1st april fallout, The unplanned CI maintainance and now this drama are all episodes who are damaging Devuan. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Things to think about
Before last Wednesday's Devuan meet. I collected a few thoughts that I hoped might be useful. What wishful thinking . . . 1. Personal attacks are rarely constructive. "Say it forget it, write it regret it." 2. It's not about you. It's about Devuan. Please get out of your own way. 3. Never, ever lie to your users. 4. Unilateral decisions have no place in a collaborative environment 5. Internal communication is a good thing. "Surprises" erode trust. Maybe I have a short memory but I have always described Devuan as a unique environment where collaborative work not personal agendas was the the focus. Well, that idealism certainly came crashing back to the reality that humans are indeed grossly flawed, unreliable and sunk in delusion. Those of us with more even temperament are exhausted from the stupidity of the drama and disheartened by the lack of constructive solutions and leadership. Maybe this will sort out. Maybe it won't. Maybe the magic and joy will return. Maybe it won't. It is not easy to repair a broken toy once it is in pieces. Humans are such slow learners . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
