Re: [DNG] Conversion script: was Formail for managing digests
Hello All, On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 16:30:41 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:18:55 -0600 > goli...@devuan.org wrote: > > > More fiddling while Rome burns . . . sigh . . . > > > > I'm in a bit of a mood because I thought that a script to convert > > systemd units to init style shell scripts would be worthy of at least > > some discussion. > > > > golinux > > I have good news, bad news, and better news. > > Good news. The latest script at http://www.trek.eu.org/devel/sysd2v/ > appears to make good sysvinit init scripts from a unit file. > > Bad news: That script is just for sysvinit, and in my 1/2 hour look at > it I couldn't find an easy way to pick off info necessary to make > facilities for s6, runit or Epoch. > > Better news: Systemd Unit Files are a pretty good specification of what > any process supervisor should do with a daemon, so converters for s6, > runit and Epoch should be pretty easy to make. Because declaratory Unit > Files are by necessity a superset of script based systems, some human > intervention will be necessary, but not a whole lot. > > Better news: There's an already made collection of runit run scripts, > for the usual suspects, at http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html . > I've put out a query for a similar collection of s6 scripts. > > SteveT We have a problem that is already a hipotsis of been solved converting the Service Units, to SysVinit daemons.. Since the Unit Files in SystemD, are "unit...", could we theoretically implement the Stub Interface for the Unit Files in SysVInit, and them threat the cases has we want to??? Because the problem with inits, in Unix Like Systems is that is there NO Standars today.. freedesktop.org, should adress the situation, like they have done in the past with other things.. Nowadays Desktop is more or less standardized.. filesystem more or less... For Init Systems.. theres is no public Standard... So or freedesktop.org adress the case or it will be like a jungle( it is now.. ).. We can also have 2 fronts... 1) Convert the unit.files from SystemD to SysVInit daemons 2) Adapt an API like, only for the unit. files that describe the Services, like a stub, an adaptor, and add it to sysVInit In the 2nd case we parse the unit.files and work the meaning as we want to( but without creating SysVinit files, since we already have what is needed to launch the service.. , **The problem is to control this pseudo service after is running**.. ) ofcourse its a lot easier to talk than do it.. but that would give us plenty of time to recreate the SysVInit script we want to, after that.. But that also means that the Unit.Files language used to describe SystemD services will be "more closer to a standard".. Could be a situation were SysVInit can support the traditional SysVInit daemons, usual runlevels, and such, and interprete the unit files of SystemD, but atribute them to this runlevels?? What do you think? I just want to add my 2 cents,. because I think that any one of this 2 cases is a valid case.. -- tux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Conversion script: was Formail for managing digests
On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:18:55 -0600 goli...@devuan.org wrote: > More fiddling while Rome burns . . . sigh . . . > > I'm in a bit of a mood because I thought that a script to convert > systemd units to init style shell scripts would be worthy of at least > some discussion. > > golinux I have good news, bad news, and better news. Good news. The latest script at http://www.trek.eu.org/devel/sysd2v/ appears to make good sysvinit init scripts from a unit file. Bad news: That script is just for sysvinit, and in my 1/2 hour look at it I couldn't find an easy way to pick off info necessary to make facilities for s6, runit or Epoch. Better news: Systemd Unit Files are a pretty good specification of what any process supervisor should do with a daemon, so converters for s6, runit and Epoch should be pretty easy to make. Because declaratory Unit Files are by necessity a superset of script based systems, some human intervention will be necessary, but not a whole lot. Better news: There's an already made collection of runit run scripts, for the usual suspects, at http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html . I've put out a query for a similar collection of s6 scripts. SteveT Steve Litt November 2019 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please stop this nonsense - Was: Re: Formail for managing digests
On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:12:37 +0100 Bernard Rosset via Dng wrote: > > Or perhaps IBM will get sick of this schtick and make Redhat dump > > systemd. Write IBM's CEO. > > I am starting to get sick of this nonsense. Not my problem. Take an Alka-Seltzer. > Either you do not understand unregulated liberal capitalism in its > essence, motives & goals, or you play dumb. It is not a question, not > even rhetorical. So sorry to have offended your political sensibilities. > Just... stop. Please? Oh, I'll keep saying it, because I'm pretty sure I'm right. [snip] > That's for the destructive/ranting part. > > > Now, on to the constructive/positive part. :-) Oh great, now I need to remove the procmail to /dev/null I just put on you. Because you're very right about actions, and you're taking actions. SteveT Steve Litt November 2019 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please stop this nonsense - Was: Re: Formail for managing digests
dear Bernard,
thanks for your mail, I find it frank and constructive overall
On Thu, 28 Nov 2019, Bernard Rosset via Dng wrote:
> On top of that, add uncertainty on Devuan's future & demotivating
> peremptory statements ("I'm sure Devuan will not survive without
> Debian's help.") and I am close to be utterly certain we are
> colliding with a wall down the road.
noone here will build that wall, but we should be aware is getting
built and I believe that, even if its a shock to see it, its still
better than continue to drive while not seeing it.
this is also about the responsibility we have taken, which isn't
small: many people trust Devuan for its demonstrated stability. we
should never betray who really trust us and is able to see beyond an
april fool's joke gone awol. in case we cannot make it, we shall admit
it IMHO. I have *personally* admitted to see a wall that is hard to
circumvent and I want that people building that wall know well what
they are doing.
Also makes me happy to see a growing amount of thinkering to solve the
situation and avoid an arms race which we'd lose: the discussion on
converting systemd units is a good example of a qualitative solution
at hand. There are well skilled people listening and they may decide
to help Devuan. I would love to be proven wrong on my beliefs and
prefer to be depicted as an idiot here than to see Devuan die. Been
through that anyway.
So, we will not go easy through that good night. But Debian developers
should really know their responsibilities. I believe many of them have
a strong ethical sense about what they are doing.
ciao
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[DNG] OT: Formail for managing digests
On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:40:10 +0100, Stephane wrote in message <8b2c88e5-a7f0-a446-d7b1-061bda701...@univ-paris1.fr>: > > > > ..excellent, talk to your support staff, they are paid handsomely > > precisely to help/support you. > > I'm one of them, but I've got other tasks than managing theses > servers. And I'm sure that the answer will be "we have too much > urgent work to care about your geekeries". FYI, I'm one of the very > few free computing(and probably the only anti-systemd) activist. ..excellent. :o) Carry on with that! > I note than as a digest reader, I'm not the one who changed the topic > of the discussions under the title of this one... ..sure? ;o) Your message here, can also be found online, here: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20191128.164010.c5908945.en.html ..that "the complete thread tree sorted by date" blue link in the top right corner points to a potential source of clarity: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20191128.164010.c5908945.en.html#20191128.164010.c5908945 ..aaand, since we're off topic now, I claim the blame for changing the subject line's "Re:" to "OT:". ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please stop this nonsense - Was: Re: Formail for managing digests
On 2019-11-28 04:12, Bernard Rosset via Dng wrote: Or perhaps IBM will get sick of this schtick and make Redhat dump systemd. Write IBM's CEO. I am starting to get sick of this nonsense. Either you do not understand unregulated liberal capitalism in its Amen to that! --- Now, on to the constructive/positive part. Problems are solved by actions... and I am a bit short-sighted on that part. I did put a files mirror up - which I am yet to drive into being officially registered. If https://devuan.rosset.eu.org/ is your mirror, it has been available on https://devuan.org/get-devuan since November 23. I might set a packages mirror up once I can secure enough disk space on a 24/7-available location. Wonderful! Talk to Evilham and onefang. Those are the only *actions* I did to try to help Devuan's project. And we thank you for that I noticed golinux propagated on this very list a set of actions (to be) done about Devuan's infrastructure. This was refreshing and gave perspective. Thanks for that little piece of hope. Lists are "feel good" but do not actually solve the problems. Was this coming from the devuan-dev ML? I naively thought this was related to *development*... and I am no coder. If not, is there a non-officially-promoted ML to join? Is there a way to give a hand on infrastructure-wise projects, like services or pipes to set up? Most of the discussion happens on irc, at the weekly meets or one on one. I guess this init privation/privatization nightmare can only be solved through actual people doing actual thingys. This ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ I believe everyone being eternally grateful for the very sole existence of Devuan and to the people being responsible for that to happen, as I am, shall be talking less (especially tackling nonsense) & act more. Yes, this is the solution. Please talk to us and find a niche where you can apply your creative talents. You can OM me any time. Bernard Rosset https://rosset.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Formail for managing digests
..excellent, talk to your support staff, they are paid handsomely precisely to help/support you. I'm one of them, but I've got other tasks than managing theses servers. And I'm sure that the answer will be "we have too much urgent work to care about your geekeries". FYI, I'm one of the very few free computing(and probably the only anti-systemd) activist. I note than as a digest reader, I'm not the one who changed the topic of the discussions under the title of this one... -- Sincerely, Stephane Ascoet ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] disable elogind messages?
On 11/24/19 10:48 AM, Andreas Messer wrote: On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 07:14:48AM -0600, hal wrote: [...] I've commented out all of these lines. Presumably elogind-user is absolutely pointless on a Devuan system anyway? a) either run "/usr/sbin/pam-auth-update" and unmark elogind entry in the dialog appearing (This will actually change all /etc/pam.d/common* files permanently). And disable elogind service running "/usr/sbin/update-rc.d elogind remove" Thanks! Much better than hand editing. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Support for missing packages
Hello, how can one submit a package to devuan? It could be proposed-updates or backports tree. Is there any manual? As far as I understand, there should be some build environment which will make package for all supported platform. How can one reach maintainer to try to build a package and possibly include it in some distribution tree? -- Regards, Yevgeny ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please stop this nonsense - Was: Re: Formail for managing digests
All I read on this ML these days are ethereal hopes people fervently supporting systemd's madness and/or having strongly invested in it, or tools attempting at transforming poop in platinum. All I read on this ML these days are ethereal hopes people fervently supporting systemd's madness and/or having strongly invested in it *will stop doing so*, or tools attempting at transforming poop in platinum. Bernard Rosset https://rosset.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Please stop this nonsense - Was: Re: Formail for managing digests
Or perhaps IBM will get sick of this schtick and make Redhat dump
systemd. Write IBM's CEO.
I am starting to get sick of this nonsense.
Either you do not understand unregulated liberal capitalism in its
essence, motives & goals, or you play dumb. It is not a question, not
even rhetorical. Just... stop. Please?
All I read on this ML these days are ethereal hopes people fervently
supporting systemd's madness and/or having strongly invested in it, or
tools attempting at transforming poop in platinum.
On top of that, add uncertainty on Devuan's future & demotivating
peremptory statements ("I'm sure Devuan will not survive without
Debian's help.") and I am close to be utterly certain we are colliding
with a wall down the road.
Then, the icing on the cake, threads dealing with emails are being
mixed/split in an incoherent fashion *and* their content do not reflect
their subject. It is so over the top it almost looks like a prank?
That's for the destructive/ranting part.
---
Now, on to the constructive/positive part.
Problems are solved by actions... and I am a bit short-sighted on that part.
I did put a files mirror up - which I am yet to drive into being
officially registered.
I might set a packages mirror up once I can secure enough disk space on
a 24/7-available location.
Those are the only *actions* I did to try to help Devuan's project.
I noticed golinux propagated on this very list a set of actions (to be)
done about Devuan's infrastructure. This was refreshing and gave
perspective. Thanks for that little piece of hope.
Was this coming from the devuan-dev ML? I naively thought this was
related to *development*... and I am no coder. If not, is there a
non-officially-promoted ML to join?
Is there a way to give a hand on infrastructure-wise projects, like
services or pipes to set up?
These questions are asked in a very personal fashion, but I believe I am
not alone in my corner, unbelievingly staring at all the fuss on this ML.
I guess this init privation/privatization nightmare can only be solved
through actual people doing actual thingys.
I believe everyone being eternally grateful for the very sole existence
of Devuan and to the people being responsible for that to happen, as I
am, shall be talking less (especially tackling nonsense) & act more.
Bernard Rosset
https://rosset.net/
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