Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?

[Alexis PM via Dng]

 >> On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote:
 Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the
 non-
 merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4
 Chimaera
 will also be.
>>>
>>> I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged-
>>> /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the
>>> project. It is up to discussion though though.
>>> Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed.


In my previous post I merely quoted Debian's official position.

I am not enthusiastic about the change of directory organization/layout, but 
unlike systemd or wayland, I see no real major problems (except unusual 
configurations, adapting some legacy code that calls binaries and libraries by 
their absolute path) and considering the big work that Devuan would imply to 
revert the adoption of usr-merge by Debian (in the next stables, more in 
testing, more in sid/ceres) I really prefer Devuan to dedicate its limited 
resources to offer an operating system that is clean of systemd, without forced 
dependencies (by window managers, desktops, web browsers and so on) of wayland, 
pulseaudio and "Poetterings", and as bug free as possible.

Best regards.
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Re: [DNG] To cc or not cc. (was: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Simon]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> The biggest accomplishment of this DMARC/DKIM thing was to make email
> such a mess that it sent even more of the dummy dwobes to Facebook, a
> private club having a monopoly over communication. What could POSSIBLY
> go wrong?

I don’t think it has. From past experience, it’s taught many people that “the 
only email you should use is gmail (or one of a handful of others)” because of 
the things they broke (deliberately).

At my last job, we ran a mail server for our clients. When I started there it 
was (IIRC) iMail ruling on Win NT and it got hacked regularly. I got asked if I 
could knock something up - which I did, a “temporary” setup with linux, 
Postfix, Postfixadmin, Amavis, and a few more bits. It was temporary for quite 
a long time, and needless to say, quite reliable in spite of me only having 
“hand me down” hardware to run my servers on - I was putting hardware into 
service that was (as my manager described it) 9 year past it’s swap out date ! 
But I digress.
After a good few years, I did a refresh and built a clustered system with 
before-acceptance mail scanning - something the big guys don’t seem to be able 
to manage.

As a policy, we’d setup clients with their own email to match their websites - 
so (e.g.) bloggscoffeeshop.co.uk would have (e.g.) i...@bloggscoffeeshop.co.uk 
for email. I’ve always thought it looks just plain naff when you see a custom 
website with a nice domain name - and a generic email like (e.g.) 
blogg...@btinternet.com.
But, many clients just refused to have two email accounts on their computer 
even though we’d offer to set it up for them. So many were simple redirects so 
that mail to i...@bloggscoffeeshop.co.uk just got redirected to 
blogg...@btinternet.com. Which worked fine until Google, MS, and Yahoo between 
them broke it and we had to explain to our clients that Google, MS, Yahoo, et 
al had broken their email setup deliberately.
But still, many refused to simply setup their nice email address as a second 
account in their client - I’ve noticed that even MS have relented and the 
built-in client in Win 10 now allows this, the built-in piece of rubbish in Win 
8 didn’t. So many simply changed the address on their website to be their ISP 
provided email.

And as far as the clients were concerned, the problem was our broken mail 
service - hence they need to use a “proper” one.

I did look into applying SRS, but with the combination of tools I was using, 
that broke one of our key anti-spam measures.



So as far as I’m concerned, the fact that they broke stuff was quite 
deliberate. The likes of Google, MS, Yahoo, etc would far rather people use 
their systems (so they can monetise their emails) than have it easy for smaller 
outfits to run fully functional emails systems. And between them they had/have 
enough of the market to simply declare something broken, change it, and force 
the rest of the world to change to suit them.



Simon
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Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?

[Martin Steigerwald]

Harald Arnesen via Dng - 06.11.21, 12:31:16 CET:
> william moss via Dng [05/11/2021 22.49]:
> > BSD and system V (AT/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a
> > decade ago.
> 
> Certainly not FreeBSD:
> 
> $ uname -or
> FreeBSD 13.0-STABLE
> 
> $ ls /bin | wc -l
>44
> 
> $ ls /usr/bin | wc -l
>   488

Ah, good that you actually looked :)

-- 
Martin


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Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?

[Harald Arnesen via Dng]

william moss via Dng [05/11/2021 22.49]:


BSD and system V (AT/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a
decade ago.


Certainly not FreeBSD:

$ uname -or
FreeBSD 13.0-STABLE

$ ls /bin | wc -l
  44

$ ls /usr/bin | wc -l
 488

--
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] snetaid debs...

[aitor]

Hi,

On 6/11/21 10:36, al3xu5 via Dng wrote:

I tried to install the new packages on Beowulf:
- snetaid 1.0-1 package was istalled, but I have:

$ sudo service snetaid status
/usr/sbin/snetaid: error while loading shared libraries: libnetaid.so.1:
cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

- indeed when trying to install the libnetaid 1.0-1 I get a dependency
   error being required libc6>=2.29 ...

Since now I have no time to rebuild snetaid sources on Beowulf, I decided
to firstly migrate my system to Chimaera (as soon as possible) and then
"retry" to install snetaid...


Packages have been tested only in chimaera. Anyway, i'm doing some changes in 
the code right now.
Notably i'm removing a double usage of the netlink socket in the daemon [*], 
which makes it redundant
and quite confusing (the global design is still a bit confusing, i know).

On the other hand, i also decided to restart snetaid via [**]:

execv(argv[0], params);

during the connection attempts in order to be able to redirect stdout to 
another tty. I've not been
able to do this redirection after reopening stdin, stdout and stderr so that 
the daemon or its child
processes can detach succesfully from the tty:

stdin  = fopen("/dev/null", "r");
stdout = fopen("/dev/null", "w+");
stderr = fopen("/dev/null", "w+");

Any hints at this point?

As soon as i finish these changes, i'll build an iso image with the live-sdk 
including the packages.
I'll let you know.

Cheers, and thanks again for your interest!

Aitor.


[*] The first one when making use of select(); the second one when making use 
of recvmsg() in nl_monitor.
 
[**] I know the risks of doing this as root, but i'm doing this in a safe mode. Note that execv will restart

snetaid keeping the same pid.




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Re: [DNG] snetaid debs...

[al3xu5 via Dng]

Tue, 2 Nov 2021 08:30:34 +0100 - aitor :

> Hi,
> 
> On 1/11/21 19:48, aitor wrote:
> 
> > The code of simple-netaid is ready to use:
> >

[...]

> Done:
> 
> https://www.gnuinos.org/simple-netaid/
> 


Hi aitor

Thank you a lot for your work. 


> Packages have been tested in a fresh install of devuan chimaera. The
> dependency on libpstat (Jude Nelson) might be replaced with pwdx
> (maybe...) Please, don't forget to configure
> your /etc/network/interfaces properly. 

I tried to install the new packages on Beowulf:

- snetaid 1.0-1 package was istalled, but I have:

$ sudo service snetaid status
/usr/sbin/snetaid: error while loading shared libraries: libnetaid.so.1:
cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

- indeed when trying to install the libnetaid 1.0-1 I get a dependency
  error being required libc6>=2.29 ...

Since now I have no time to rebuild snetaid sources on Beowulf, I decided
to firstly migrate my system to Chimaera (as soon as possible) and then
"retry" to install snetaid...


> Next packages will consist of a
> status icon in both Gtk and Qt. I have them working.

Great!!!


> Shortly i'll test simple-netaid in other distributions. Specially, I
> look forward to build packages for Void Linux, including also ifupdown
> -available in github for other distros, de(b|v)uan aside.
> 
> Feedback is welcome.
> 
> Cheers,


Best regards
al3xu5

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[DNG] DMARC/DKIM (was: Re: To cc or not cc.)

[Martin Steigerwald]

Steve Litt - 06.11.21, 03:38:19 CET:
> The biggest accomplishment of this DMARC/DKIM thing was to make email
> such a mess that it sent even more of the dummy dwobes to Facebook, a
> private club having a monopoly over communication. What could POSSIBLY
> go wrong?

I still did not fully wrap my head around DMARC/DKIM.

And I am pretty sure I did not yet get it right. I think I did not even 
configure DMARC with my mail setup using Postfix, Dovecot and rspamd.

I do have some SPF hint… after Google wanted to force me to use that 
instead of stopping a GMail user from sending mails in my name. But I 
have relaxed it again already cause it just did not work.

Best,
-- 
Martin


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Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?

[Martin Steigerwald]

william moss via Dng - 05.11.21, 22:49:42 CET:
> On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote:
> > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote:
> >>  Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the
> >> non-
> >> merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4
> >> Chimaera
> >> will also be.
> > 
> > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged-
> > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the
> > project. It is up to discussion though though.
> > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed.
[…]
> BSD and system V (AT/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a
> decade ago.

Interesting information. I never checked what they do with other Unixes.

> The original intent was for a fast disk for root and less expensive
> media for all else.
> 
> This was in the days of Lab Version 6 and 7, later system III and BSD
> 4.x. A large disk was 100 MB.
> 
> Once large fast disks of 100GB became inexpensive commodities, the
> incentive was gone.

I know this background.

> None the less, from a personal perspective:
> I have been using Unix since lab version 6. I have used BSD since
> 4.0, Minix, Ultrix, etc. I have no preference and would suggest that
> whatever is easiest for the maintainers/developers of Devuan should be
> adopted.

I do not have a strong preference either. However… if it is for going 
usrmerge, then for me it is about doing it properly. To me it seems that 
the arguments of the dpkg maintainer are quite warranted:

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr

To me it appears that the current default was quite rushed and adopted 
without discussing its consequences through to the end:

base-installer: Allow installing w/o the broken merged-usr-via-symlinks

https://bugs.debian.org/923091

And that is one of the main issues I have with how some Systemd 
developers and supporters approach adopting their ideas – the idea for 
merged-/usr for Linux was brought in by Systemd people: They use force, 
if their arguments do not do the trick.

If done right, I could even go along with some of the ideas behind 
Systemd… but for me Systemd still is much more a social and cultural 
issue than a technical one. The path of adopting Systemd is accompanied 
with unparalleled arrogance and ignorance and a lot of power struggles. 
A pattern I currently see in other parts of society as well.

Freedom… especially the right to free speech… is the base for everything 
else.

> When the people fear the government there is
> tyranny, when the government fears the people
> there is liberty.
> John Basil Barnhill

Very right and very appropriate to remember this in the current times.

(P.S.: I suggest moving off from Google Mail… of course it is entirely 
your decision, but… Google is… in my opinion is not compatible with 
above citation. Google extends what they now about us… but does not 
reveal how they do what they do and what they actually do to a large 
extent.)

Ciao,
-- 
Martin


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