Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Antony Stone (antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it):

> It isn't a can of worms, it's just potentially confusing terminology if you 
> think that "AMD64" means you have to have a CPU made by AMD.

'x86_64' is irritating to type.  Also, AMD deserves the credit, having
shown the necessary leadership.

-- 
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Rick Moen a TV series on the brink of being canceled."
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 09:35:18AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> Hi,
> Crossgrading looks like a huge can of worms.  The wiki page seems to imply
> that systemd must be installed.  If I wanted systemd I would have stayed on
> Debian.

To the contrary: systemd makes crossgrading impossible, if it's running.

It will crash halfway during the process, possibly making recovery "fun".

That paragraph explains some workarounds, which need 1. manually upgrading
libsystemd0, and 2. running from a liveCD.

On the other hand, sysvinit and openrc can handle this fine -- like any
normal Unix program, they open their binaries at startup, and rely on the
filesystem keeping the underlying files when they're unlinked.


In other words:
Sysvinit can be updated online.
Systemd need to be shut down, and the system booted in a way that doesn't
start that instance of systemd (liveCD, conversion done from initrd, a
different init).


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Fred]

On 11/26/20 10:45 AM, Patrick Bartek via Dng wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:34:16 -0700
Fred  wrote:


On 11/25/20 4:56 PM, Patrick Bartek via Dng wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:07:24 -0700
Fred  wrote:
   

Hello,

I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried
to run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not
run.

bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file:
Exec format error

I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous
discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.

uname -m
i686

lspci
Architecture:i686
CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
(the rest cut)

So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?


It can be either or both, that is, Multi-Architecture.  It depends
on which version you chose to install. Evidently, you installed or
upgraded to the 32-bit version. Perhaps, your Jessie install was
32-bit to begin with.

B

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I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just
followed instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I
just assumed Beowulf was 64 bit.

My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?


The least problematical way is to back up your data, wipe the current
install and do a clean install of Beowulf 64-bit and all your apps.
However, I surmise, what you want is "the quick fix."  Okay.  Here's
what I'd do, generally speaking -- after considerable research, but mind
you, it's been about 10 years since I set up and ran a 32-bit,
64-bit multi-arch system:

Back up your data!!!  Add AMD64 multi-architecture to get the 64-bit
libraries. This will also work with Intel CPUs. Install the 64-bit
kernel, if it hasn't been installed. Check that during the kernel
install, a new vmlinuz and initrd.img for it was created. Do an apt
update.  Reboot with the 64-bit kernel.  It won't be the default.
So, you'll have to choose it at the boot menu.  Hopefully it will
boot.  (If not, troubleshoot.)  If system boots, check you're running
the 64-bit kernel.  If so, do an apt update and upgrade.  Install the
necessary and wanted 64-bit kernel headers, utilities, apps, etc.  When
all is running well, make the 64-bit kernel your default boot kernel in
grub.

I'd leave all the 32-bit kernels, etc. alone.  Don't try to purge them
to get a 100% 64-bit system.  May cause problems and as long as you're
running 64-bit, all those files will just sit there and do nothing
except take up space on the hard drive.

This will get you started:

   https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/HOWTO
   https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/Implementation

Good luck

B
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I think the easiest solution is to abandon trying to run the 64-bit 
clipgrab binary blob.  youtube-dl is working again for now.


I will plan on doing a fresh install of the AMD64 version of Beowulf 
when I have time.


Thanks for the help!

Best regards,
Fred

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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Patrick Bartek via Dng]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:34:16 -0700
Fred  wrote:

> On 11/25/20 4:56 PM, Patrick Bartek via Dng wrote:
> > On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:07:24 -0700
> > Fred  wrote:
> >   
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried
> >> to run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not
> >> run.
> >>
> >> bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file:
> >> Exec format error
> >>
> >> I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous
> >> discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.
> >>
> >> uname -m
> >> i686
> >>
> >> lspci
> >> Architecture:i686
> >> CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
> >> (the rest cut)
> >>
> >> So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?  
> > 
> > It can be either or both, that is, Multi-Architecture.  It depends
> > on which version you chose to install. Evidently, you installed or
> > upgraded to the 32-bit version. Perhaps, your Jessie install was
> > 32-bit to begin with.
> > 
> > B
> > 
> > ___
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> > Dng@lists.dyne.org
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> >   
> I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just
> followed instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I
> just assumed Beowulf was 64 bit.
> 
> My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?

The least problematical way is to back up your data, wipe the current
install and do a clean install of Beowulf 64-bit and all your apps.
However, I surmise, what you want is "the quick fix."  Okay.  Here's
what I'd do, generally speaking -- after considerable research, but mind
you, it's been about 10 years since I set up and ran a 32-bit,
64-bit multi-arch system:

Back up your data!!!  Add AMD64 multi-architecture to get the 64-bit
libraries. This will also work with Intel CPUs. Install the 64-bit
kernel, if it hasn't been installed. Check that during the kernel
install, a new vmlinuz and initrd.img for it was created. Do an apt
update.  Reboot with the 64-bit kernel.  It won't be the default.
So, you'll have to choose it at the boot menu.  Hopefully it will
boot.  (If not, troubleshoot.)  If system boots, check you're running
the 64-bit kernel.  If so, do an apt update and upgrade.  Install the
necessary and wanted 64-bit kernel headers, utilities, apps, etc.  When
all is running well, make the 64-bit kernel your default boot kernel in
grub.

I'd leave all the 32-bit kernels, etc. alone.  Don't try to purge them
to get a 100% 64-bit system.  May cause problems and as long as you're
running 64-bit, all those files will just sit there and do nothing
except take up space on the hard drive.

This will get you started:

  https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/HOWTO
  https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/Implementation

Good luck

B
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 05:46:48PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Thursday 26 November 2020 at 17:35:18, Fred wrote:
> 
> > I installed arch-test which says i386.  I am sure an AMD cpu will run
> > x86 instructions but I don't see how a x86/i386 cpu will run the
> > instructions that AMD presumably added.
> 
> i386 is a 32-bit standard.
> 
> Any 64-bit CPU (from AMD or Intel, doesn't matter which) can also run 32-bit 
> instructions - this appears to be what you are doing on your machine right 
> now.
> 
> > fred@ragnok:~$ lscpu
> > Architecture:i686
> > CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
> > This seems to say I can run 64 bit software.
> 
> Indeed, it does.
> 
> > Is the i386 version of Devuan only 32bit?
> 
> Yes, i386 is a 32-bit standard.
> 
> > Else how is 64 bit installed instead?  If you want 64 bit you have to
> > install the AMD64 version which means I have to change the MB to one that
> > has an AMD cpu?
> 
> No, AMD64 is a 64-bit instruction set definition, common to both AMD and 
> Intel.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amd64
> 
> > Who took the lid off this can of worms?
> 
> It isn't a can of worms, it's just potentially confusing terminology if you 
> think that "AMD64" means you have to have a CPU made by AMD.

Historical reasons:

Intel made a 64-bit architecture, the Itanium.  It was incompatible with i386.
AMD made a 64-bit architecture which had a 32-bit mode that was compatible 
ith i386.  And they designed their 64-bit instruction set so that it didn't 
involve a huge duplication of hardware between the two versions.

The intel 64-bit instruction set ended up being called IA64.

So the AMD architecture which just expanded i386 ended up being called 
AMD64.

And market pressures meant intel ended up making AMD64 processors, which 
massively outsold Itania.

-- hendrik

> 
> 
> Antony.
> 
> -- 
> If you can't find an Open Source solution for it, then it isn't a real 
> problem.
> 
>Please reply to the list;
>  please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Antony Stone]

On Thursday 26 November 2020 at 17:35:18, Fred wrote:

> I installed arch-test which says i386.  I am sure an AMD cpu will run
> x86 instructions but I don't see how a x86/i386 cpu will run the
> instructions that AMD presumably added.

i386 is a 32-bit standard.

Any 64-bit CPU (from AMD or Intel, doesn't matter which) can also run 32-bit 
instructions - this appears to be what you are doing on your machine right 
now.

> fred@ragnok:~$ lscpu
> Architecture:i686
> CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
> This seems to say I can run 64 bit software.

Indeed, it does.

> Is the i386 version of Devuan only 32bit?

Yes, i386 is a 32-bit standard.

> Else how is 64 bit installed instead?  If you want 64 bit you have to
> install the AMD64 version which means I have to change the MB to one that
> has an AMD cpu?

No, AMD64 is a 64-bit instruction set definition, common to both AMD and Intel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amd64

> Who took the lid off this can of worms?

It isn't a can of worms, it's just potentially confusing terminology if you 
think that "AMD64" means you have to have a CPU made by AMD.


Antony.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 09:35:18AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> Hi,
> Crossgrading looks like a huge can of worms.  The wiki page seems to imply
> that systemd must be installed.  If I wanted systemd I would have stayed on
> Debian.

As of jessie, I believe that the Debian recomended way to install a 
nonsystemd system was to use the installer and then afterward remove 
systemd.

Apparently the people writing the installer had forgotten to provide a 
question which init system was to be used until it was too late to put it 
into the installer and be confident they hadn't introduced critical bugs.
(they didn't consider the presence of systemd to be a bug)

So they came up with this workaround.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Fred]

On 11/25/20 7:12 PM, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:




On 26 Nov 2020, at 13:02, Gregory Nowak  wrote:

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 05:34:16PM -0700, Fred wrote:

I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just followed
instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I just assumed
Beowulf was 64 bit.


Debian jessie was available in i386 and amd64 as far as I recall.



My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?


Probably the easiest way is to do a fresh 64 bit install of
Beowulf. There might be a way to do a migration through dpkg
--add-architecture, but I'm not sure about that.

Greg


The debian wiki has an article on doing this transition.
https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading 

It also mentions a new package debian-crossgrading from google summer of 
code 2020 that appears to automate some of this.
https://salsa.debian.org/crossgrading-team/debian-crossgrading 




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Hi,
Crossgrading looks like a huge can of worms.  The wiki page seems to 
imply that systemd must be installed.  If I wanted systemd I would have 
stayed on Debian.


I installed arch-test which says i386.  I am sure an AMD cpu will run 
x86 instructions but I don't see how a x86/i386 cpu will run the 
instructions that AMD presumably added.


fred@ragnok:~$ lscpu
Architecture:i686
CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
This seems to say I can run 64 bit software.

Is the i386 version of Devuan only 32bit?  Else how is 64 bit installed 
instead?  If you want 64 bit you have to install the AMD64 version which 
means I have to change the MB to one that has an AMD cpu?


Who took the lid off this can of worms?
Best regards,
Fred


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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[terryc]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:07:24 -0700
Fred  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried to 
> run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not run.
> 
...snip  

> So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?

Further to the other answers, if you are running Devuan-beowulf@ i386
(try 'uname -m'), before you multi-arch(add @686/amd64, consider if you ever 
want to use
Playonlinux.

If so, add it now before you multi-arch as PoL requires i386 libraries
for a lot of their emulations which are very hard to install after you
have added 686 architecture.


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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 01:12:01PM +1100, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
> > On 26 Nov 2020, at 13:02, Gregory Nowak  wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 05:34:16PM -0700, Fred wrote:
^^
Unrelated: Gregory, please fix your mail client to not insert invalid
control characters.

> >> I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just followed
> >> instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I just assumed
> >> Beowulf was 64 bit.
> > 
> > Debian jessie was available in i386 and amd64 as far as I recall.
> >> 
> >> My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?

You really, really want to use a 64-bit kernel even with 32-bit userspace. 
Doing otherwise is insecure and very slow.  Especially with mitigations for
bugs found in the last few years.  32-bit kernels can't do so right, and
their code to handle modern hardware is really barebones and slow -- and
Linus refuses to merge speed-ups that would complicate things, as 32-bit
kernels are meant only for 32-bit hardware.

You need to install an -amd64 kernel.  If that AppImage is self-contained,
that's all.

If it won't work, please add minimal multiarch:
dpkg --add-architecture amd64
apt update
apt install libc6:amd64

> > Probably the easiest way is to do a fresh 64 bit install of
> > Beowulf. There might be a way to do a migration through dpkg
> > --add-architecture, but I'm not sure about that.
> 
> The debian wiki has an article on doing this transition.
> https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading
> 
> It also mentions a new package debian-crossgrading from google summer of code 
> 2020 that appears to automate some of this.
> https://salsa.debian.org/crossgrading-team/debian-crossgrading

If you feel adventureous (or have good backups, or would do a fresh install)
it would be nice if you could give "crossgrader" a try.  Its author would
be thankful for feedback, including problems you face.

That package should be available in ceres and unstable.


Meow!
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⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[wirelessduck--- via Dng]

> On 26 Nov 2020, at 13:02, Gregory Nowak  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 05:34:16PM -0700, Fred wrote:
>> I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just followed
>> instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I just assumed
>> Beowulf was 64 bit.
> 
> Debian jessie was available in i386 and amd64 as far as I recall.
> 
>> 
>> My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?
> 
> Probably the easiest way is to do a fresh 64 bit install of
> Beowulf. There might be a way to do a migration through dpkg
> --add-architecture, but I'm not sure about that.
> 
> Greg

The debian wiki has an article on doing this transition.
https://wiki.debian.org/CrossGrading

It also mentions a new package debian-crossgrading from google summer of code 
2020 that appears to automate some of this.
https://salsa.debian.org/crossgrading-team/debian-crossgrading

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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Gregory Nowak]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 05:34:16PM -0700, Fred wrote:
> I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just followed
> instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I just assumed
> Beowulf was 64 bit.

Debian jessie was available in i386 and amd64 as far as I recall.

> 
> My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?

Probably the easiest way is to do a fresh 64 bit install of
Beowulf. There might be a way to do a migration through dpkg
--add-architecture, but I'm not sure about that.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Fred]

On 11/25/20 4:56 PM, Patrick Bartek via Dng wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:07:24 -0700
Fred  wrote:


Hello,

I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried to
run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not run.

bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file:
Exec format error

I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous
discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.

uname -m
i686

lspci
Architecture:i686
CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
(the rest cut)

So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?


It can be either or both, that is, Multi-Architecture.  It depends on
which version you chose to install. Evidently, you installed or
upgraded to the 32-bit version. Perhaps, your Jessie install was 32-bit
to begin with.

B

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I think Debian Jessie is 32 bit.  To upgrade to Beowulf I just followed 
instructions that didn't say anything about 32 or 64.  I just assumed 
Beowulf was 64 bit.


My CPU appears to be able to do 64 so how do I change over?

Best regards,
Fred

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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Patrick Bartek via Dng]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:07:24 -0700
Fred  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried to 
> run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not run.
> 
> bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file:
> Exec format error
> 
> I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous 
> discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.
> 
> uname -m
> i686
> 
> lspci
> Architecture:i686
> CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
> (the rest cut)
> 
> So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?

It can be either or both, that is, Multi-Architecture.  It depends on
which version you chose to install. Evidently, you installed or
upgraded to the 32-bit version. Perhaps, your Jessie install was 32-bit
to begin with.

B

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Re: [DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[kdibble]

 On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 15:07:19 -0800 Fred  wrote 


>Hello,

>I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried to 
>run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not run.

>bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file: Exec 
>format error

>I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous 
>discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.

>uname -m
>i686

>lspci
>Architecture:i686
>CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
>(the rest cut)

>So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?

>Best regards,
>Fred
___



Devuan 3 Beowulf is available for i386, amd64, armel, armhf, arm64



It appears that you installed the 32 bit version, i.e. i386



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[DNG] Beowulf: 32bit or 64 bit?

[Fred]

Hello,

I recently upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Beowulf.  I tried to 
run a program (ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage) which would not run.


bash: ./ClipGrab-3.9.2-x86_64.AppImage: cannot execute binary file: Exec 
format error


I asked for help on the Debian user mail list (because of previous 
discussion) and was told I am running a 32 bit version.


uname -m
i686

lspci
Architecture:i686
CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit, 64-bit
(the rest cut)

So, is Beowulf 32 bit or 64 bit?

Best regards,
Fred
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