Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 07/01/17 21:21, Simon Hobson wrote:


In general - none !


So, why not just patching the crap out and filing an upstream bug
(incl. notifying the folks here, so we can keep an eye on it) ?

--mtx

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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Ron]

On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:36:40 -0500
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> > > fate accompli  
> > "Fate"

> >  is very apposite in the circumstance  
 
> One misspell and a person's reputation is shot forever!
> :-)

And me thinking it was purposefully done  ;-3)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Have you ever imagined a world
  with no hypothetical situations ?

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 01 Jul 11:47 -0500, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500
> Nate Bargmann  wrote:
> 
> > fate accompli
> 
> "Fate"
>  is very apposite in the circumstance

One misspell and a person's reputation is shot forever!

:-)

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Didier Kryn]

Le 01/07/2017 à 18:46, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI a écrit :

On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500
Nate Bargmann  wrote:


fate accompli

"Fate"
  is very apposite in the circumstance
  
Cheers,
  
Ron.


"Fait accompli" means "accomplished fact", something it's a 
nonsense to oppose to, because it's done. Period.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Simon Hobson]

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:

> At that point I'm curious which fancy features of systemd are needed
> by applications at all ?

In general - none !
But, it seems that the technique being used by it's proponents is to substitute 
their stuff and "force" new APIs on developers. Ie, pick a target (whether 
that's DNS, NTP, Syslog, ...), roll their own substitute, include that 
substitute by default.

So while applications might not actually need any feature in SystemD - over 
time the devs will find it harder and harder to not use the new systemd APIs 
(which will certainly be the case as distros switch more and more to default to 
systemd, and start dropping the traditional tools as "too much work").

Once the dev is using the new APIs, it then makes it harder for users to 
continue using the older (and more reliable ?) tools that we already know and 
that have stood the test of time. At some point, I can see some devs start to 
ask along the lines of "why continue supporting two APIs ?" and stop 
maintaining the code to use one of them - if the majority of distros are using 
systemd then we know which one  will get dropped.

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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Nate Bargmann (n...@n0nb.us):

> I'll admit, there was one trick that SD did that I liked, and that was
> starting CUPS only when there was a call to print.  I don't print often
> so bringing up CUPS on demand and then shutting it down later was nice.
> But then, SD was running all the time, so not much was gained.

CUPS is almost the only game in town, but there was a project I long
admired a great deal, that ran a very lightweight print subsystem with no
queuing, called PDQ (print, don't queue).  It's been unmaintained for
quite a few years, but is probably still practical.  Because it has an
interface to Foomatic, it supports all printers that work under CUPS or
LPRng.  (It still runs a daemon process but it's a small, simple one.)

http://pdq.sourceforge.net/introduction.html
https://sourceforge.net/p/pdq/news/2006/06/resurrect-pdq/



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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Ron]

On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> fate accompli

"Fate"
 is very apposite in the circumstance
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  It is a typically Hohenzollern idea to believe that it is a crime
  for a country to defend itself after its army has been destroyed.
   -- Karl Marx

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 01 Jul 08:49 -0500, vmlinux wrote:
> It makes more sense when you consider that systemd  is a thinly veiled
> excuse for an init daemon which really wants to replace every distro
> out there with something red hat has more control over.

Certainly, that trend has been well established.  What is troubling are
all of the other distributions who treat it as fate accompli.  My hope
is that Devuan, Slackware, and other distributions that have staked out
a position that seeks to maintain the traditional stack will maintain
enough traction so that application writers won't adopt only SD APIs at
the expense of anything else.

I'll admit, there was one trick that SD did that I liked, and that was
starting CUPS only when there was a call to print.  I don't print often
so bringing up CUPS on demand and then shutting it down later was nice.
But then, SD was running all the time, so not much was gained.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us


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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[vmlinux]

It makes more sense when you consider that systemd  is a thinly veiled excuse 
for an init daemon which really wants to replace every distro out there with 
something red hat has more control over.

On July 1, 2017 8:25:56 AM CDT, vmlinux  wrote:
::
::
::On June 30, 2017 1:14:24 AM CDT, Nate Bargmann  wrote:
* On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:

>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside
::an
init
> system?

The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there..

-- 
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[vmlinux]

On June 30, 2017 1:14:24 AM CDT, Nate Bargmann  wrote:
::* On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:
::
::>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an
::init
::> system?
::
::The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there...
::
::- Nate
::
::-- 
::
::"The optimist p

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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[John Crisp]

On 30/06/17 08:56, Joachim Fahrner wrote:
> It's driven by Red Hat to make money out of supporting their
> development.
> 

Hammer -> Nail



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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Ron]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:07:46 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float 
> by.
> - Sun Tzu

I'm afraid he never wrote that:  See for instance 
https://shibumimanagementcanada.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/invented-sun-tzu-art-of-war-quotes/
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
  An ignorant person is one who doesn't know
what you have just found out.
  -- Will Rogers

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Aldemir Akpinar wrote:

> On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmann  wrote:
> > * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> >
> >>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init
> >> system?
> >
> > The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there...
> >
> > - Nate
> > 
> 
> And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all
> these daemons.


If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.

- Sun Tzu



Besides the riddance, what I'm really worried by is that these lads
are not waiting to demonstrate their qualities, but selling them
already to an industry which often runs mission-critical services -
namely Red-Hat does provide the infrastructure for several public
sector operations, also here in Europe.

Last not least, its clear to some of us since years now that these
lads want to restrict ABI access and build a full vertical stack that
puts a machine completely under systemd's control from its boot - a
sort of revamp of the "trusted computing" weird techno-fascist dream

Before you think I'm crazy in writing what I wrote, please have a look
at the US patent 20150040216-A1 "Systems and Methods for Restricting
Application Binary Interfaces" filed by Paul Moore, Dan Walsh and
Lennart Poettering on behalf of Red Hat inc.

So to conclude I'm afraid that the bodies floating by in this war will
be many more than those of our "enemies".

ciao
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 30. Juni 2017 schrieb Aldemir Akpinar:
> On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmann  wrote:
> > * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> >
> >>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init
> >> system?
> >
> > The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there...
> >
> > - Nate
> > 
> 
> And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all
> these daemons.

This is a remote administration feature, not a bug :-)



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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-06-30 07:53, schrieb Alessandro Selli:

  Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an 
init

system?


systemd is _NOT_ an init system. That's a mythos. Systemd started as an 
init system, but evolved step-by-step to a monolithic low level Linux 
userland. It's driven by Red Hat to make money out of supporting their 
development.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Aldemir Akpinar]

On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmann  wrote:
> * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>
>>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init
>> system?
>
> The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there...
>
> - Nate
> 

And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all
these daemons.
--
aldemir
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Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote:

>   Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init
> system?

The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there...

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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[DNG] systemd: good riddance!

[Alessandro Selli]

  Issues just keep piling up:
https://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-3341-1/

Summary

systemd-resolved could be made to crash or run programs if it received a
specially crafted DNS response.

Details

An out-of-bounds write was discovered in systemd-resolved when handling
specially crafted DNS responses. A remote attacker could potentially
exploit this to cause a denial of service (daemon crash) or execute
arbitrary code. (CVE-2017-9445)


  Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init
system?
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