Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 11:49:20AM +0100, shraptor shraptor wrote: I consider myself of moderate coding skills and I like shell. I learnt coding in basic, modula2 and some c. If you liked Modula 2, you might want to look at Modula 3. Same syntax, but completely different language. --

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread hellekin
On 03/02/15 23:23, Gravis wrote: consider grouping your emails as conversations as it is a wonderful option for organizing mailing list threads. *** Thanks for this, but the topic having drifted a lot: the thread should also have been renamed. If any of you would like to contribute a summary,

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 01:39:55AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: On 03/03/2015 09:07 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module needed major new functinoality, and it was easier to write

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread T.J. Duchene
I think it is very likely Henrik, that we will never agree entirely on the subject. =) Which is okay with me and should be okay with you, too. We agree that particular GC is doomed to be flawed. As something that cannot be avoided, the potential for disasterous bugs that cannot be fixed by the

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/03/2015 07:19 PM, Nuno Magalhães wrote: So what you're saying is that all languages are syntactic sugar over assembly? :) Not at all. C was designed specifically to allow code to be portable, instead of assembly which is not. I said usually. What I mean is that many arguments in

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-04 Thread Didier Kryn
Le 04/03/2015 00:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit : On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit : We just see things differently. My first question would be: is there are a justified reason NOT to use C? There is a very good

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread KatolaZ
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 10:07:41PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] It can be discussed wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should always be considered. Efficiency and guaranteed portability, Diedler. You can't say the same of Python, Perl, etc -

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/03/2015 09:07 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module needed major new functinoality, and it was easier to write the new version in Scheme than to modify the old. Over two years

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread Nuno Magalhães
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 + KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really nothing more

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread T.J. Duchene
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit : We just see things differently. My first question would be: is there are a justified reason NOT to use C? There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread Isaac Dunham
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:25:23AM +, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: When you code in Perl, you are using subroutines and libraries that were incorporated into Perl core.The fact you are calling an entire subroutine when you split

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 05:36:54PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: I had experiences of big programs in C and my experience is that debugging is long (and probably never ended) and evolution is a nightmare. That can be

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread Didier Kryn
Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit : We just see things differently. My first question would be: is there are a justified reason NOT to use C? There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by Kernighan and Ritchie: we assume the programmer knows what (s)he is doing. And

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-03 Thread Didier Kryn
Le 03/03/2015 01:08, T.J. Duchene a écrit : It's interesting that you'd mention Java here. I don't much like the Java language or the Java programming culture, but Java bytecode has the interesting property that, with a little plumbing, one can send executable code over the network and

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 09:11 AM, Tor Myklebust wrote: I'm even more confused by your position than I was before. I can see your point. I'll try to explain more concisely. When I call something overuse, I am referring to the ideas that an interpreted language must be used as glue between two bits

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Tor Myklebust
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote: A respectable percentage of today's Linux distribution is a kludge of rapid pre-existing hacks that do not always work well when layered. You have something like adduser or other command utilities written in Perl, which are then called by init scripts,

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 11:05 AM, Steve Litt wrote: If I were the king of all open source, and a programmer asked to write a program in C, I would ask them to justify that. Will their performance bottleneck be the code itself rather than the typist's fingers? Will the time taken by their program

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Joel Roth
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:12:02PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: On 03/02/2015 09:11 AM, Tor Myklebust wrote: I'm even more confused by your position than I was before. I can see your point. I'll try to explain more concisely. When I call something overuse, I am referring to the ideas

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Go Linux
Are you guys ever gonna run out of gas? This thread has pretty much taken over my Inbox . . . ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 05:33 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote: This is indeed true, but it seems like a social problem rather than a technical problem. People can, and will, write garbage software no matter what tools they have. It might pay to let them do this with as little pain as possible so they can

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread KatolaZ
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: [cut] I would like to point out that this is not just a curse of Debian. Also other distros and other operating systems (like FreeBSD) use perl and python scripts for some non-critical system software, True, enough! just

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread KatolaZ
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 02:33:27PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: @Katolz It's just a conversation, an exchange of views. It's marked as OT. Nothing wrong with that, and it is never intended to be a put down in any way. =) I find such to be a valuable measure of the community. it's good

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 08:13 AM, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 07:01:24AM -0500, Gravis wrote: [cut] Hi Gravis, I appreciate that, but I personally can't see how the problems of garbage collection in Java are related with good or bad programming practices, or with a supposedly terribly long

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread KatolaZ
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 07:01:24AM -0500, Gravis wrote: [cut] garbage collection is actually a compounding issue, meaning that while it may not be a problem for programs that are only active for a few minutes before terminating, it is a problem for programs that are high intensity or run

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Gravis
Contrary to what most modern programmers would like to promote, I do not believe for one second that mandatorily garbage collected, bounded languages create better code design. I honestly can't see all this failing around of code written in Python, Perl or Ruby :) garbage collection is

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Matthew Melton
I've been playing with golang recently and although you can't strictly stop it garbage collecting you can compile with a flag which produces the output of the escape analysis. Anything that doesn't escape gets stored on the stack. Things that might are stored in the heap. I often compile with

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 01:57 AM, KatolaZ wrote: So the problem is not the language. While I cited Perl and Python in particular, the gist of my rant was about sloppy coding practices. I singled a few things out because I personally feel that their communities can be regarded as some of the worst

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 12:16:52AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote: The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else. I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. I've never believed

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread Tor Myklebust
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote: On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote: The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else. I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. I've never believed that they make good

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-02 Thread KatolaZ
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 05:35:42PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 02/03/2015 16:40, Hendrik Boom a écrit : Frankly, I've also believe that interpreted languages should never be used for anything other than a teaching tool. There's one huge advantage of interpreted languages: The code you see

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread T.J. Duchene
On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair comparison. Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are: a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that they become non-trivial to remove. You

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread Tor Myklebust
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote: On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair comparison. Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are: a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into standard distributions

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote: The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else. I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. I've never believed that they make good choice for a required component. Frankly, I've

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread T.J. Duchene
On 03/02/2015 12:16 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote: I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. *I was referring to all the software that depends on them when using Debian/Devuan. * Bad editing on my part. Mea Culpa.

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread Hendrik Boom
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:53:11AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Having [perl and python] doesn't cost much, IMO. this is true however, you only need a single deep-seeded flaw to exploit an entire system when it comes to scripting. for further reading, see bash. This is true of any library you

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread Steve Litt
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 09:01:58 -0500 Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-03-01 Thread Philip Lacroix
Am 01.03.2015 00:04 schrieb T.J. Duchene: As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into standard distributions that it is hard to extract them. As other members have already pointed

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread T.J. Duchene
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 21:03 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote: I wouldn't call personality clash the case of a user having specific problems with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think? Actually, yes I would call it a personality problem, but only because I have seen

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread Nate Bargmann
* On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted so far into standard distributions that it is hard to extract them. With all respect, T.J., those

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread Philip Lacroix
Am 27.02.2015 21:18 schrieb T.J. Duchene: With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called for here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago. I wouldn't call personality clash the case of a

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread Joel Roth
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of them Having them don't cost much, IMO. A lot of the Debian

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread T.J. Duchene
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C and C++ are also hard to extract--but none are trying to dictate policy. I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires the C library for

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread Gravis
My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of them this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference would be to make a standard POSIX base to build

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-28 Thread Joel Roth
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:18:59PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote: My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of

Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-27 Thread Steven W. Scott
Lol! I recently happened to be researching the different soundsystem architectures, after incinerating pulseaudio on my laptop/Wheezy and then having different problems, and found -- https://wiki.debian.org/Sound What struck me of particular interest were the three diagrams of how

[Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

2015-02-27 Thread T.J. Duchene
On Fri, 2015-02-27 at 18:13 +, KatolaZ wrote: On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: [cut] Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the systemd-nonsense: