On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 11:49:20AM +0100, shraptor shraptor wrote:
I consider myself of moderate coding skills
and I like shell. I learnt coding in basic, modula2 and some c.
If you liked Modula 2, you might want to look at Modula 3. Same
syntax, but completely different language.
--
On 03/02/15 23:23, Gravis wrote:
consider grouping your emails as conversations as it is a wonderful
option for organizing mailing list threads.
*** Thanks for this, but the topic having drifted a lot: the thread
should also have been renamed. If any of you would like to contribute a
summary,
On Wed, Mar 04, 2015 at 01:39:55AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On 03/03/2015 09:07 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting
language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module
needed major new functinoality, and it was easier to write
I think it is very likely Henrik, that we will never agree entirely on the
subject. =) Which is okay with me and should be okay with you, too.
We agree that particular GC is doomed to be flawed. As something that
cannot be avoided, the potential for disasterous bugs that cannot be fixed
by the
On 03/03/2015 07:19 PM, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
So what you're saying is that all languages are syntactic sugar over
assembly? :)
Not at all. C was designed specifically to allow code to be portable,
instead of assembly which is not.
I said usually. What I mean is that many arguments in
Le 04/03/2015 00:36, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100
Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote:
Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
We just see things differently. My first question would be: is
there are a justified reason NOT to use C?
There is a very good
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 10:07:41PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
[cut]
It can be discussed
wether the choice makes sense, but I don't see even why C should
always be considered.
Efficiency and guaranteed portability, Diedler. You can't say the same
of Python, Perl, etc -
On 03/03/2015 09:07 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
As time passed, they kept finding new uses for their scripting
language. Occasionally they would realize and existing module needed
major new functinoality, and it was easier to write the new version in
Scheme than to modify the old. Over two years
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 +
KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:
All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the
processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really
nothing more
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100
Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote:
Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
We just see things differently. My first question would be: is
there are a justified reason NOT to use C?
There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 07:25:23AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
When you code in Perl, you are using subroutines and libraries that
were incorporated into Perl core.The fact you are calling an
entire subroutine when you split
On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 05:36:54PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 12:46:17 +0100
Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote:
I had
experiences of big programs in C and my experience is that debugging
is long (and probably never ended) and evolution is a nightmare.
That can be
Le 02/03/2015 23:43, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
We just see things differently. My first question would be: is there
are a justified reason NOT to use C?
There is a very good reason, and I heard it was given by Kernighan
and Ritchie: we assume the programmer knows what (s)he is doing. And
Le 03/03/2015 01:08, T.J. Duchene a écrit :
It's interesting that you'd mention Java here. I don't much like the
Java language or the Java programming culture, but Java bytecode has
the interesting property that, with a little plumbing, one can send
executable code over the network and
On 03/02/2015 09:11 AM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
I'm even more confused by your position than I was before.
I can see your point. I'll try to explain more concisely.
When I call something overuse, I am referring to the ideas that an
interpreted language must be used as glue between two bits
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote:
A respectable percentage of today's Linux distribution is a kludge of rapid
pre-existing hacks that do not always work well when layered. You have
something like adduser or other command utilities written in Perl, which are
then called by init scripts,
On 03/02/2015 11:05 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
If I were the king of all open source, and a programmer asked to write
a program in C, I would ask them to justify that. Will their
performance bottleneck be the code itself rather than the typist's
fingers? Will the time taken by their program
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:12:02PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On 03/02/2015 09:11 AM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
I'm even more confused by your position than I was before.
I can see your point. I'll try to explain more concisely.
When I call something overuse, I am referring to the ideas
Are you guys ever gonna run out of gas? This thread has pretty much taken over
my Inbox . . .
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On 03/02/2015 05:33 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
This is indeed true, but it seems like a social problem rather than a
technical problem. People can, and will, write garbage software no
matter what tools they have. It might pay to let them do this with as
little pain as possible so they can
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 04:35:24PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
[cut]
I would like to point out that this is not just a curse of
Debian. Also other distros and other operating systems (like FreeBSD)
use perl and python scripts for some non-critical system software,
True, enough!
just
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 02:33:27PM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
@Katolz
It's just a conversation, an exchange of views. It's marked as OT.
Nothing wrong with that, and it is never intended to be a put down
in any way. =) I find such to be a valuable measure of the
community.
it's good
On 03/02/2015 08:13 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 07:01:24AM -0500, Gravis wrote:
[cut]
Hi Gravis,
I appreciate that, but I personally can't see how the problems of
garbage collection in Java are related with good or bad programming
practices, or with a supposedly terribly long
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 07:01:24AM -0500, Gravis wrote:
[cut]
garbage collection is actually a compounding issue, meaning that while
it may not be a problem for programs that are only active for a few
minutes before terminating, it is a problem for programs that are high
intensity or run
Contrary to what most modern programmers would like to promote, I
do not believe for one second that mandatorily garbage collected,
bounded languages create better code design.
I honestly can't see all this failing around of code written in
Python, Perl or Ruby :)
garbage collection is
I've been playing with golang recently and although you can't strictly stop it
garbage collecting you can compile with a flag which produces the output of the
escape analysis. Anything that doesn't escape gets stored on the stack. Things
that might are stored in the heap.
I often compile with
On 03/02/2015 01:57 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
So the problem is not the language.
While I cited Perl and Python in particular, the gist of my rant was
about sloppy coding practices. I singled a few things out because I
personally feel that their communities can be regarded as some of the
worst
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 12:16:52AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else.
I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when
using Debian/Devuan. I've never believed
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else.
I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using
Debian/Devuan. I've never believed that they make good
On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 05:35:42PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
Le 02/03/2015 16:40, Hendrik Boom a écrit :
Frankly, I've also believe that
interpreted languages should never be used for anything other than a
teaching tool.
There's one huge advantage of interpreted languages: The code you see
On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote:
As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair
comparison.
Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are:
a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that
they become non-trivial to remove. You
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote:
On Sun, 2015-03-01 at 21:12 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote:
As other members have already pointed out, this is not a fair
comparison.
Perhaps. The reasons I made the comparison are:
a) All of them have a dependency chain so interwoven and complex that
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
* On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but
then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted
so far into standard distributions
On 03/01/2015 05:56 PM, Tor Myklebust wrote:
The perl-base package pre-depends on libc6 and dpkg. And nothing else.
I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when using
Debian/Devuan. I've never believed that they make good choice for a
required component. Frankly, I've
On 03/02/2015 12:16 AM, T.J. Duchene wrote:
I was not referring to all the software that depends on them when
using Debian/Devuan.
*I was referring to all the software that depends on them when using
Debian/Devuan. *
Bad editing on my part. Mea Culpa.
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 01:53:11AM -0500, Gravis wrote:
Having [perl and python] doesn't cost much, IMO.
this is true however, you only need a single deep-seeded flaw to
exploit an entire system when it comes to scripting. for further
reading, see bash.
This is true of any library you
On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 09:01:58 -0500
Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 06:11:42PM -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
* On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to
that, but then the same argument
Am 01.03.2015 00:04 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that,
but
then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are
rooted
so far into standard distributions that it is hard to extract them.
As other members have already pointed
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 21:03 +0100, Philip Lacroix wrote:
I wouldn't call personality clash the case of a user having specific
problems
with systemd's networking tentacles on Debian Jessie, don't you think?
Actually, yes I would call it a personality problem, but only because I
have seen
* On 2015 28 Feb 17:07 -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote:
As for systemd having tentacles, there is certainly truth to that, but
then the same argument could be said of Python or Perl. Both are rooted
so far into standard distributions that it is hard to extract them.
With all respect, T.J., those
Am 27.02.2015 21:18 schrieb T.J. Duchene:
With respect to all, I think that a measure of objectivity is called
for
here. I think that because personality clashes that Debian's entire
systemd discussion has lost any sense of reality long ago.
I wouldn't call personality clash the case of a
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote:
My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in
a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd
is. You can't get rid of them
Having them don't cost much, IMO.
A lot of the Debian
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:
With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C
and C++ are also hard to extract--but none are trying to dictate
policy.
I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires
the C library for
My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in
a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd
is. You can't get rid of them
this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference
would be to make a standard POSIX base to build
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:18:59PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 12:05:32AM -0500, Gravis wrote:
My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in
a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd
is. You can't get rid of
Lol! I recently happened to be researching the different soundsystem
architectures, after incinerating pulseaudio on my laptop/Wheezy and then
having different problems, and found -- https://wiki.debian.org/Sound
What struck me of particular interest were the three diagrams of how
On Fri, 2015-02-27 at 18:13 +, KatolaZ wrote:
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote:
[cut]
Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is
currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the
systemd-nonsense:
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