Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
On Tue, 8/11/15, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep) To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2015, 11:27 AM On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:02:28 -0700 Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Mon, 8/10/15, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: [snip] * base install * apt-get install xorg * apt-get install xterm (if not installed by xorg) * apt-get install Xfce (or whatever) * apt-get install lightdm [snip] Several years ago, I actually built up xfce (without the meta package) from a base install. Then I found refracta which simplified my life as it was very close to what I wanted. fsmithred has promised to build a devuan iso for the likes of me. But he's not been seen around here in some time and the refracta forums haven't had much traffic lately . . . maybe because it's summer. Once the beta appears I'm hoping he'll spin into action. Doing this all from scratch would be a bit of a challenge for me . . . the years are beginning to take a toll . . . Hi golinux, I've known you for what, a year now? My impression is you're smart and skilled enough to find it almost trivial to install base, then xorg, then xterm, then a window manager, then lightdm. I've seen you do a lot more challenging stuff than that, including making very inciteful contributions to discussions on infrastructure. My impression of you is that if you put your mind to it, you could install Arch or Gentoo, and those really do take some concentration and resolution of ambiguities. But anyway... I'll admit I've met people who couldn't follow a five step apt-get sequence, but you're about a million miles from that. Well, anyway, you were speaking for those guys who can't follow a 5 step recipe, and that's legitimate. *If* it's decided that the base install should be minimal, it would be pretty easy to make a shellscript to do all X installation in one command. If the base install included nCurses and Dialog, it could even be a no-argument script that queried for everything: * Do you want a Graphical User Interface (GUI) (Y/n) * Do you want to boot straight to Graphics mode? (y/N) * If booting straight to Graphics mode, require password? (Y/n) * Which window mgr? (Xfce/LXDE/Openbox/Whatever/Other) * If Other, please enter the WM name here * Thank you. Press Enter to perform this work, press Ctrl+C to abort: Of course, the prompts would need to be *much* more tailored to the uninitiated user, who for instance, doesn't know what a Graphical User Interface, a window manager are, or why he would or wouldn't want a password. The benefit of doing it this way is it's being performed on an already installed system that's almost guaranteed to boot just fine. SteveT Thanks for the vote of confidence. :) This back injury has really slowed me down mentally as well as physically. Three months of nearly constant pain messes with your mind - no happy pills here. :) So I am finding simple tasks even more challenging as the months wear on. I like the idea of a script with options to do the deed. Just don't ask me to write it! One more thing . . . as to this: I've seen you do a lot more challenging stuff than that, including making very inciteful contributions to discussions on infrastructure. Yes, I am a troublemaker and often attempt to INCITE the hordes into revolt but I'm hoping you meant INSIGHTFUL. ;) Those homonyms will come to bite you if you're not careful . . . ;) It's always a pleasure, Steve . . . :) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:02:28 -0700 Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Mon, 8/10/15, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: [snip] * base install * apt-get install xorg * apt-get install xterm (if not installed by xorg) * apt-get install Xfce (or whatever) * apt-get install lightdm [snip] Several years ago, I actually built up xfce (without the meta package) from a base install. Then I found refracta which simplified my life as it was very close to what I wanted. fsmithred has promised to build a devuan iso for the likes of me. But he's not been seen around here in some time and the refracta forums haven't had much traffic lately . . . maybe because it's summer. Once the beta appears I'm hoping he'll spin into action. Doing this all from scratch would be a bit of a challenge for me . . . the years are beginning to take a toll . . . Hi golinux, I've known you for what, a year now? My impression is you're smart and skilled enough to find it almost trivial to install base, then xorg, then xterm, then a window manager, then lightdm. I've seen you do a lot more challenging stuff than that, including making very inciteful contributions to discussions on infrastructure. My impression of you is that if you put your mind to it, you could install Arch or Gentoo, and those really do take some concentration and resolution of ambiguities. But anyway... I'll admit I've met people who couldn't follow a five step apt-get sequence, but you're about a million miles from that. Well, anyway, you were speaking for those guys who can't follow a 5 step recipe, and that's legitimate. *If* it's decided that the base install should be minimal, it would be pretty easy to make a shellscript to do all X installation in one command. If the base install included nCurses and Dialog, it could even be a no-argument script that queried for everything: * Do you want a Graphical User Interface (GUI) (Y/n) * Do you want to boot straight to Graphics mode? (y/N) * If booting straight to Graphics mode, require password? (Y/n) * Which window mgr? (Xfce/LXDE/Openbox/Whatever/Other) * If Other, please enter the WM name here * Thank you. Press Enter to perform this work, press Ctrl+C to abort: Of course, the prompts would need to be *much* more tailored to the uninitiated user, who for instance, doesn't know what a Graphical User Interface, a window manager are, or why he would or wouldn't want a password. The benefit of doing it this way is it's being performed on an already installed system that's almost guaranteed to boot just fine. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
@golinux, Understand what you are saying, but I believe there are several distros, trying to stay away from systemd, that will adopt Devuan as a base once it produces a clean base install. Devuan will produce a full blown desktop distro in the future, but I believe there will be Devuan based distros before Devuan gets around to it They already have the infrastructure in place. There are people using the Devuan repos already for those pieces that help them continue to run Jessie without systemd. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:23:18 -0700 Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Sun, 8/9/15, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep) To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015, 8:42 PM All that Devuan really needs to provide is a Debian base system without systemd. Everything else is secondary to that. At least, it should be. Everything else can be achieved by adding layers on, but that Devuan base is still needed. Worrying about Gnome, XFCE, or even X11 is really a secondary goal. NO! That may be true for a sys admin but not for a lowly desktop user like me (and others). That's why I suggested earlier that Devuan provide a base system for servers and a base system for desktop users. That way no need to aggravate sys admins with a full blown desktop and 'normal' users will be happy too. Everybody wins that way. golinux Hi golinux, I base this reply on the assumption that the idea of a base system is relevant only to the initial install, and that Debian would certainly continue to have packages for xorg, Xfce, LXDE, Openbox, *box, Windowmaker, IceWM, and of course, for those who like to boot straight to GUI, lightdm. If my assumption is correct, the only way making the base install tiny affects you is that you do the following instead of one big install: * base install * apt-get install xorg * apt-get install xterm (if not installed by xorg) * apt-get install Xfce (or whatever) * apt-get install lightdm There's a huge benefit, for you as a desktop guy, for doing it this way. The faster you can get a booting system up and running, the less time you spend if your installation turns out to be a dud. The more stuff the installer does, the more likely it is that your install is a dud. I'm a desktop guy (except I don't use a display manager), and I've always done it this way when given the chance. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
On Sun, 8/9/15, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: Subject: [DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep) To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Sunday, August 9, 2015, 8:42 PM All that Devuan really needs to provide is a Debian base system without systemd. Everything else is secondary to that. At least, it should be. Everything else can be achieved by adding layers on, but that Devuan base is still needed. Worrying about Gnome, XFCE, or even X11 is really a secondary goal. NO! That may be true for a sys admin but not for a lowly desktop user like me (and others). That's why I suggested earlier that Devuan provide a base system for servers and a base system for desktop users. That way no need to aggravate sys admins with a full blown desktop and 'normal' users will be happy too. Everybody wins that way. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Packaging (was Systemd Shimss, Init scripts in packages, possibly Mission Creep)
I know I have said this before, but I just wanted to say that both threads are really the same issue. I think the overarching problem that both Debian and Devuan have is the very same problem: packaging. From my little corner of the world, every disagreement so far seems to be a package problem. The only difference is that Debian is aiming toward systemd, while Devuan is aiming toward System 5. 1. When on Debian, forced to use systemd or a System 5 + Systemd shim: package problem because systemd is the package default. Solved with optional packaging. 2. Potentially missing System 5 Init scripts missing for Devuan developers. Solved by packaging System 5 compatible scripts. 3. Can't include new versions of gnome or other packages in Devuan. Solved by systemd optional packaging. Devuan v1.0 is pretty much going to be a clone of Debian Jesse, and that's fine, but I think it should stop being a clone there. Devuan needs to be more than just Debian without systemd. I think that the Debian packaging standards need to be reworked (or completely abandoned) so that Devuan does end up like Debian. If Devuan doesn't do something different, the upstream work for removing systemd with each release is likely to just going to keep multiplying to the point of breaking. Devuan developers are most likely (correct me if I am wrong) rebuilding the Debian packages as is and it is very likely (given the team size) that will be the norm for the foreseeable future. So they are neither going to actually test every package, nor do they have the human resources to turn that around any time soon. Devuan has to depend on Debian to do the heavy lifting. What I propose is that in the future Devuan support and test only a basic subset of the Debian archive as Devuan. I think that should be only what is currently the Debian system base. Anything past that is simply sauce for the goose and supported in a defacto fashion in a separate repo. I'm sure this might seem like a lack of ambition or pessimism to some. I think of it as a focused goal with the best chance for real success. This is not to say that the Devuan Team has been idle: even the existence of an Alpha 2 is impressive. All that Devuan really needs to provide is a Debian base system without systemd. Everything else is secondary to that. At least, it should be. Everything else can be achieved by adding layers on, but that Devuan base is still needed. Worrying about Gnome, XFCE, or even X11 is really a secondary goal. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
