Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 04:31:18PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > > system. You can see my answer here: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm > > The break pads analogy isn't bad. Relating that to what actually > needed to happen to turn debian jessie into devuan Jessie (assuming > you're familiar enough with the process) would be > even better. Yes. It would be useful to have that kid of historical documentation. So that some poet better than I am could turn it into an epic sage... You know the kind of thing: Of code and the men I sing, who first From the shores of systemd did .. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 02:15:56PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > Geez. I had a Debian system go belly-up last night because /var got messed > up. No journal, so you can't boot out of emergency mode. Can't mount a > damned USB stick in emergency mode because udev isn't running. Got to boot > a rescue disk to get anything done. > > We really have gone wrong... Can't you boot with init=/bin/bash ? Then, after repairing /var, do the obvious replacement. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can. ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener. ⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm The break pads analogy isn't bad. Relating that to what actually needed to happen to turn debian jessie into devuan Jessie (assuming you're familiar enough with the process) would be even better. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Geez. I had a Debian system go belly-up last night because /var got messed up. No journal, so you can't boot out of emergency mode. Can't mount a damned USB stick in emergency mode because udev isn't running. Got to boot a rescue disk to get anything done. We really have gone wrong... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Am 2017-07-09 17:10, schrieb Edward Bartolo: I have been running Devuan since August of two years ago, and I do not regret it. Being forced to do Linux the way seen from above, would have definitely killed my motivation to use a different OS completely. Devuan is giving me freedom; Devuan is not only about init freedom, but much much more. Devuan is about placing users' freedom at the heart of software design. Devuan is not about advertising a product that users must accept. If it were for that, its creation would have been useless. I totally agree with Edward. I feel also being a Unix Veteran. My first steps were with SCO Unix, Kodaks Interactive Unix, Suns Solaris and CDC's EP/IX, long before existence of Linux. I don't mind if its now called Linux or *BSD. Important is, that it's a open and free Unix compatible operating system. Red Hat and Mr. Poettering are trying (with success) to make Linux a monolithic and proprietary system like Windows is. This is not Unix, and this is not software freedom. My heart beats for BSD systems, but I'm using Linux because many applications I need are not available for BSD (vmware, drivers for chip card readers for onlne banking, and so on). But when Linux goes Windows (with systemd), that's not my OS. I hope that Devuan will win the fight, and keep Linux a free and open OS. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-09 03:37, KatolaZ wrote: On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested system. You can see my answer here: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm Very nice, but it's only half the answer. The thing is that if you want to be able to fix bikes, you also need a featureful bike laboratory, complete with all the tools to replace brakes, tune stuff, test bikes, fix problems, forge new bike parts, etc. In a word: infrastructure. My2Cents KatolaZ A laboratory is useless without all the busy elves using those tools and infrastructure. And fortunately, Devuan has attracted some very special, magical elves. Without them the project would have been DOA. . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Like the majority of users of Devuan, at first, when Debian was forked and Devuan established, it was considered by the rest as a joke that cannot be taken seriously. The argument was Debian was too big a distribution to fork and systemd was 'the way to go'. Determination and perseverance have proven, even a 'bad taste joke', can be taken seriously. I have been running Devuan since August of two years ago, and I do not regret it. Being forced to do Linux the way seen from above, would have definitely killed my motivation to use a different OS completely. Devuan is giving me freedom; Devuan is not only about init freedom, but much much more. Devuan is about placing users' freedom at the heart of software design. Devuan is not about advertising a product that users must accept. If it were for that, its creation would have been useless. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand the concepts underlying them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-09 09:22, Evilham wrote: Hello Douglas, Am 09/07/2017 um 14:42 schrieb Douglas Guptill: On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually something will light your fire. :) OK, thanks for that. Remember that a lot happens on irc too. I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try irc one day soon. Please don't doubt joining the #devuan channel, heck, join even the #devuan-dev channel. People are by far friendly (or direct-to-the-point informative, take it as lack of time for extreme politeness ;)). Even if you don't feel compelled to say hi at first, just lurking around can give you a sense of where things are moving and maybe give you some ideas of things that could be done but are not explicitly documented. Any chance someone (KatolaZ, parazyd etc.) could generate a list of packages in ASCII needing attention due to major breakages or needing removal of systemd dependencies? That would certainly motivate those wanting to help. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Hello Douglas, Am 09/07/2017 um 14:42 schrieb Douglas Guptill: > On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > >> Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually >> something will light your fire. :) > > OK, thanks for that. > >> Remember that a lot happens on irc too. > > I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the > courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try > irc one day soon. Please don't doubt joining the #devuan channel, heck, join even the #devuan-dev channel. People are by far friendly (or direct-to-the-point informative, take it as lack of time for extreme politeness ;)). Even if you don't feel compelled to say hi at first, just lurking around can give you a sense of where things are moving and maybe give you some ideas of things that could be done but are not explicitly documented. -- Evilham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually > something will light your fire. :) OK, thanks for that. > Remember that a lot happens on irc too. I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try irc one day soon. Thanks, Douglas. -- Bold character derived from stubborn patience and adversity. == Douglas Guptill email: dgupt...@accesswave.ca ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why > did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm > Very nice, but it's only half the answer. The thing is that if you want to be able to fix bikes, you also need a featureful bike laboratory, complete with all the tools to replace brakes, tune stuff, test bikes, fix problems, forge new bike parts, etc. In a word: infrastructure. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Hi Steve. Steve Litt - 08.07.17, 21:35: > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why > did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: Thank you. This very much nails the point. This and the social and behavorial issues with some of the upstream developers are the top most reasons for replacing it with something different. Thank you. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-08 22:31, Douglas Guptill wrote: On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested system. You can see my answer here: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm Love it. I have switched to Devuan, after 19 years of Debian, as a user and sysadmin. Including the conversion of a cluster from Rocks to Debian. I'm puzzling about how to help with Devuan, but cannot quite find a starting point. Any suggestions? (I have an account on git.devuan.org) Regards, Douglas. Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually something will light your fire. :) Remember that a lot happens on irc too. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why > did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm Love it. I have switched to Devuan, after 19 years of Debian, as a user and sysadmin. Including the conversion of a cluster from Rocks to Debian. I'm puzzling about how to help with Devuan, but cannot quite find a starting point. Any suggestions? (I have an account on git.devuan.org) Regards, Douglas. -- Bold character derived from stubborn patience and adversity. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, 08 Jul 2017 20:47:16 -0500 goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2017-07-08 20:35, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) > > "Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at > > face value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a > > systemd-infested system. You can see my answer here: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm > > > > SteveT > > > > As usual . . . priceless. Did the dunce get it? > Oh, he wasn't a dunce. He was more like us. I think he wanted me to follow the money to Red Hat so he could use that in his own anti-systemd arguments, but instead I stuck to the architecture. So many ways to criticize systemd, so little time :-). SteveT Steve Litt July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-08 20:35, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested system. You can see my answer here: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm SteveT As usual . . . priceless. Did the dunce get it? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
