Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> But if they make good backups and are able to restore their system, why not 
> try
> it on the real system? 

Of course!  My point was merely that initial experimentation on a VM is
more attractive because you are not risking a real system and can
recover from mishap very easily.  Speaking for myself, I might have
waited a long time before experimenting with inits if I'd been able to
do so only by risking screwing up an entire real native-OS Linux system.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170712-13:05-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> 
> > It's good that you linked to it. May need testing.
> 
> As per usual.  ;->
> 
> > And is good advice to GNU/Linux users to try it.
> 
> I particularly wanted to encourage users to conduct this and similar
> experiments _in virtual machines_.  Probably most people have the same
> aversion I do to touching the core of a system, after the embarrassment
> and trauma of making an entire real system unbootable because of one
> little tweak to the bootloader or similar component.  I figure any
> longime *nix person has that reflexive reaction of 'Don't touch it.
> It's not broken.'  _So_, it's helpful to point out that appropriate use
> of VM technology lets you carry out potentially destabilising procedures
> and revert to a checkpointed VM state if it doesn't work out.  (It
> emboldens, you see.)
But if they make good backups and are able to restore their system, why not try
it one the real system? 
> > And because it might turn out just great tool in the
> > hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction 
> > pure
> > time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
> > obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
> > comparison to systemd. And users will like it.
> 
> Some will.  À chacun son goût,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uEmtn56M0
Right! De gustibus non est disputandum. 
> (Johann Strauss II war sehr international, aber sein französisch war
> nicht sehr gut.)
> (Bitte entschuldige ich meine schlechte Kenntnis der deutschen Sprache.)
Meine Deutsche Kenntnis is sehr zu wenig to verstehe was die singen. Nur sehr
sehr wenig. Aber Strauss ist super!
( translation: My knowledge of German is way too little to understand what
those sing. Only very very little. But Strauss is great! ; at least that's what
I tried to say :) )
> 
> 
> > Look, that page of yours
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> > is great,
> 
> You are too kind.
> 
> (Previše ste ljubazni.  ;->  )
trans.: You are too kind.

Od srca hvala vama, na stranici i na vašoj ljubaznosti!
trans: (my) Heartfelt thanks go to you, for your page and for you kindness!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/12/2017 05:34 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-07-12 at 12:14 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
>> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
>> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> Just FTR, zap got the amd64 packages from me too, and then sent them to
> you. You can see that if your follow the email thread. (and I'm the
> person to blame if something goes wrong)
>
> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)
Yes, I did get my packages from you. Thank you.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Svante Signell (svante.sign...@gmail.com):

> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)

I _tend_ to share your view, but we should always beware of what I call
FirstThursdayism.  If I were really mean, I'd call it McLoughlinism,
but I'm trying to be nice.  Time for a story


Back in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I was editor of the 40 page monthly
magazine _Blue Notes_ for San Francisco PC User Group.  SFpcUG had a
talent for committing interesting organisational errors in a large and
creative variety of ways, and I always looked forward with eager
anticipation to the next one.  (I immortalised one such anecdote about
SFpcUG politics in the Linux User Group HOWTO,
http://linuxmafia.com/lug/User-Group-HOWTO-7.html#ss7.4 .)

One time, SFpcUG President Tom McLoughlin was trying to figure out what
was the best day of the week for the monthly meeting.  (I try not to
mock Tom.  He's a nice guy, and was trying to do the right thing for
members.)  Tom dealt with his statistical sampling problem, thus:

1.  Convene the current first Thursday meeting at the current location.
2.  Ask how many members in attendence like first Thursdays.

Trying not to smile, I gently pointed out his unquestioned assumption
that the subset of the membership present on the meeting was
sufficiently representative of the whole.  In particular, I said, it's
entirely possible that people present on first Thursdays have a higher
than average likelihood of finding first Thursdays convenient, and, if
he'd asked a second Wednesdays crowd the same question, he'd be
astonished at how much they tended to prefer that.

A high proportion of people on mailing lists think mailing lists are great.
A high proportion of people on Web forums think Web forums are great.

Parties in my back yard are of course better than both, according to 
a poll of people attending parties in my back yard.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2017-07-12 at 12:14 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > 
> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328

Just FTR, zap got the amd64 packages from me too, and then sent them to
you. You can see that if your follow the email thread. (and I'm the
person to blame if something goes wrong)

(personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
publish stuff on web pages??)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> It's good that you linked to it. May need testing.

As per usual.  ;->

> And is good advice to GNU/Linux users to try it.

I particularly wanted to encourage users to conduct this and similar
experiments _in virtual machines_.  Probably most people have the same
aversion I do to touching the core of a system, after the embarrassment
and trauma of making an entire real system unbootable because of one
little tweak to the bootloader or similar component.  I figure any
longime *nix person has that reflexive reaction of 'Don't touch it.
It's not broken.'  _So_, it's helpful to point out that appropriate use
of VM technology lets you carry out potentially destabilising procedures
and revert to a checkpointed VM state if it doesn't work out.  (It
emboldens, you see.)

> And because it might turn out just great tool in the
> hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction pure
> time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
> obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
> comparison to systemd. And users will like it.

Some will.  À chacun son goût,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uEmtn56M0

(Johann Strauss II war sehr international, aber sein französisch war
nicht sehr gut.)

(Bitte entschuldige ich meine schlechte Kenntnis der deutschen Sprache.)


> Look, that page of yours
> https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> is great,

You are too kind.

(Previše ste ljubazni.  ;->  )

> Regards!
> -- 
> Miroslav Rovis

Med vennlig hilsen,
Rick M.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170712-07:19-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> 
> > Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> > 
> > And I also edited:
> > ( same topic )
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
> > because it is linked from:
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> > to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send 
> > them,
> > in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point 
> > them
> > to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.
> 
> I hope I've not created confusion, in linking to pages at dev1galaxy.org
> that describe how to deal with the interim situation (while Devuan's
> support for OpenRC is tentative and requires some attention).
No, it's my fault. Of all the somewhat disparate and incomplete, and above all
scattered, information, I forwent Adam Borowski's repo, because right then zap
had kindly sent me the packages...

It's good that you linked to it. May need testing. And is good advice to
GNU/Linux users to try it. And because it might turn out just great tool in the
hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction pure
time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
comparison to systemd. And users will like it.

> To explain:  I recently added text and links because I felt mildly guilty
> over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
> vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its deficiencies
> relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went hunting in the
> archives to find those remarks, and in the process came across more material
> about Ascii's package and the need to currently supply a locally rebuilt
> util-linux to make it work (and added coverage of that).
Look, that page of yours
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
is great, I spent hours this morning. How do you think I would have noticed you
linked to Dev1Galaxy OpenRC topic that I started?... It's not obvious, no
dev1galaxy string verbatim to be found, only in the HTML source.
> 
> Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
> implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
> improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.
No, I believe other readers will find it useful too. It already is just fine.

But it's a starting poing, a reference point. She or he who does not shirk from
work, can learn a lot by following your links...  And it's hours upon hours if
one delves into it. And then only your own passages shine clearer light to the
mind... I had only a few hours this morning...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 03:42:14PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 04:35:22PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > Benda Xu has recently updated the package in unstable to 0.27-1, this is the
> > version where comments would be most relevant.
> 
> Shall we try then to build the pakage for Devuan unstable, and let it
> percolate down to ascii after it has been tested?

I think the one in stretch/ascii should be good enough; backporting should
be considered only after someone identifies a good reason for doing so.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 04:35:22PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 07:19:01AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > I felt mildly guilty
> > over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
> > vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its
> > deficiencies relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went
> > hunting in the archives to find those remarks, and in the process came
> > across more material about Ascii's package and the need to currently
> > supply a locally rebuilt util-linux to make it work (and added coverage
> > of that).
> > 
> > Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
> > implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
> > improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.
> 
> Benda Xu has recently updated the package in unstable to 0.27-1, this is the
> version where comments would be most relevant.
> 

Shall we try then to build the pakage for Devuan unstable, and let it
percolate down to ascii after it has been tested?

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> 
> And I also edited:
> ( same topic )
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
> because it is linked from:
> https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send them,
> in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point them
> to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.

I hope I've not created confusion, in linking to pages at dev1galaxy.org
that describe how to deal with the interim situation (while Devuan's
support for OpenRC is tentative and requires some attention).  To
explain:  I recently added text and links because I felt mildly guilty
over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its
deficiencies relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went
hunting in the archives to find those remarks, and in the process came
across more material about Ascii's package and the need to currently
supply a locally rebuilt util-linux to make it work (and added coverage
of that).

Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 17:26 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> > Do I understand correctly that only these two packages it would be
> > useful that they remain posted there on my website temporarily:
> > 
> > -rw-r--r-- 1 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 libfdisk1_2.29.2-
> > 1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> > -rw-r--r-- 1 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 util-linux_2.29.2-
> > 1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> 
> Yes, they are useful until the build problems are solved.
> 
> > But then, can you, or Daniel Reurich (CC'ing him too), send me then
> > also i386 packages, so I can provide those in this interim before
> > none of it is needed any more.
> 
> Attached in a separate mail to you only. Especially since the mailing
> list attachment size is limited (as it should be)

Now it's sorted right, I hope:
OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328

And I also edited:
( same topic )
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
because it is linked from:
https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send them,
in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point them
to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 17:26 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> > Please provide version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 of sysvinit-utils on
> > your
> > web page. Version 2.88dsf-59.9 is not Devuanized!! And update
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128 correspondingly.

> Do I understand correctly that only these two packages it would be
> useful that they remain posted there on my website temporarily:
> 
> -rw-r--r-- 1 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 libfdisk1_2.29.2-
> 1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> -rw-r--r-- 1 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 util-linux_2.29.2-
> 1+devuan1_amd64.deb

Yes, they are useful until the build problems are solved.

> But then, can you, or Daniel Reurich (CC'ing him too), send me then
> also i386 packages, so I can provide those in this interim before
> none of it is needed any more.

Attached in a separate mail to you only. Especially since the mailing
list attachment size is limited (as it should be)
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 10:40:43PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > I do have an ongoing interest in, and gratitude for, the progress
> > towards robust OpenRC support in Devuan.  As it happens, today I 
> > was spending a while polishing up my 2016 page about converting Debian 8
> > 'Jessie' to use either OpenRC or any of the four other packaged init
> > systems other than systemd
> > (http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html) -- fixing a
> > few nits and noting options for getting a _better_ OpenRC than the
> > half-assed Debian package.
> 
> The package in jessie is meh, but do you have any particular criticism about
> the ones in stretch and unstable?  They're not ideal, but anything that I
> noticed is quite cosmetic.

Honestly, I've not yet had a chance to try those out, having been
stretched too thin, lately, by $DAYJOB and other matters.  So, I've been
lately relying on details provided by others.  When I have a chance, I 
will indeed see about a fresh experiment using Stretch and its official
packages (before, no doubt, fooling around with it and transforming it
past recognition ;-> ).

Anyway, if you see any blunders I made in that page, I'd be grateful to
hear about it, as always.

FWIW, I also long past stopped wanting to stick with Official Debian,
anyway.  The systemd / freedestkop.org nuisance is just one more reason
to seek better ways to install / maintain a debianesque system.  Back a
in the early 2000s, I got so tired of hearing people complain about
the Official Debian d-i images (with the implication that it was the
only way to install a Debian-type system) that I compiled a list of
alternative installer images / methods, by way of response:
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/installers.html
(It's now a decade out of date.)


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170711-18:12+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 15:35 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
> > > > 
> > > > This one is not OK, see below. This is the Debian (unpatched
> > > > version)
> 
> > > > No, the sysvinit packages you need are 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 and
> > > > you get
> > > > them by adding to sources.list: (+ apt-get update)
> > > > sysvinit-core
> > > > sysvinit-utils
> > > > initscripts
> > > > bootlogd (optional)
> 
> > are needed to install OpenRC, get them at:
> > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170711.035614.33ea6395.en.htm
> > l
> 
> Please provide version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 of sysvinit-utils on your
> web page. Version 2.88dsf-59.9 is not Devuanized!! And update
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128 correspondingly.
I understand. And will follow your kind and urgent orders, Sir! :)
( except that I'm slow, been so slow all this time... But also, have a look at 
how thoroughly I work! Just look!
In this file:
/var/lib/apt/lists/packages.devuan.org_devuan_dists_ascii-proposed_main_binary-amd64_Packages
I just found your name. What're you doing in there ;) ... Sorry, no more jokes.
( I wish I were a developer... Maybe some day... )

But details are nice to paste now, from that file, again:

$ cat 
/var/lib/apt/lists/packages.devuan.org_devuan_dists_ascii-proposed_main_binary-amd64_Packages
...

Package: sysvinit-utils
Source: sysvinit
Version: 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2
Essential: yes
Installed-Size: 137
Maintainer: Daniel Reurich ,
Svante Signell 
Architecture: amd64
Replaces: initscripts (<< 2.88dsf-59.5)
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.14), init-system-helpers (>= 1.25~), util-linux (>> 
2.28-2~)
Breaks: systemd (<< 215)
Description: System-V-like utilities
 This package contains the important System-V-like utilities.
 .
 Specifically, this package includes:
 killall5, pidof
Multi-Arch: foreign
Homepage: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/sysvinit
Section: admin
Priority: required
Filename: pool/main/s/sysvinit/sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2_amd64.deb
Size: 67750
MD5sum: ec5f996f4407c0c170c365a116a8c17a
SHA1: a6aa73e620fec56119e0e75168a03b8f429d2513
SHA256: acaf8504b3f54d20611d98107670c26aaa5bb2a9c36f85d528bff54c5fe1f36d

...
$ 

The above paste is featuring:

Filename: pool/main/s/sysvinit/sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2_amd64.deb

(the maybe not necessary to post elsewhere because it is in ascii-proposed
repo, see below, file)

Right, but it then, it then is really not even needed to be replaced on my
website.
But only removed, if I understand correctly. and explained on Dev1Galaxy OpenRC
topic of mine, explained there why it is removed... (which explanation will
consist of just the link to this email, when it is on the web),.

I really set up that temporary dir on my website only because I wanted people
to have those packages that one can only get if they would only be able to get
it from you, or Daniel Reurich or from me (now) by email.

This would be much cleaner, and it is no fuss like sending email attachments, I
thought...

Do I understand correctly that only these two packages it would be useful that
they remain posted there on my website temporarily:

-rw-r--r-- 1 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
-rw-r--r-- 1 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb

But then, can you, or Daniel Reurich (CC'ing him too), send me then also i386
packages, so I can provide those in this interim before none of it is needed
any more.

Pls., guys, do correct me if I'm wrong in any of my understanding above.
 
> All the above packages are available at ascii-proposed:
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> 
> Depending on your pinning
> apt-get install ... or
> apt-get install -t ascii-proposed ...
> sysvinit-core
> sysvinit-utils
> initscripts
> bootlogd (optional)

I see.

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 10:40:43PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> I do have an ongoing interest in, and gratitude for, the progress
> towards robust OpenRC support in Devuan.  As it happens, today I 
> was spending a while polishing up my 2016 page about converting Debian 8
> 'Jessie' to use either OpenRC or any of the four other packaged init
> systems other than systemd
> (http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html) -- fixing a
> few nits and noting options for getting a _better_ OpenRC than the
> half-assed Debian package.

The package in jessie is meh, but do you have any particular criticism about
the ones in stretch and unstable?  They're not ideal, but anything that I
noticed is quite cosmetic.

I'd be very interested in making it full-assed.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 15:35 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> > > > 
> > > > $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
> > > 
> > > This one is not OK, see below. This is the Debian (unpatched
> > > version)

> > > No, the sysvinit packages you need are 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 and
> > > you get
> > > them by adding to sources.list: (+ apt-get update)
> > > sysvinit-core
> > > sysvinit-utils
> > > initscripts
> > > bootlogd (optional)

> are needed to install OpenRC, get them at:
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170711.035614.33ea6395.en.htm
> l

Please provide version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 of sysvinit-utils on your
web page. Version 2.88dsf-59.9 is not Devuanized!! And update
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128 correspondingly.

All the above packages are available at ascii-proposed:
deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main

Depending on your pinning
apt-get install ... or
apt-get install -t ascii-proposed ...
sysvinit-core
sysvinit-utils
initscripts
bootlogd (optional)
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170711-09:13-0400, zap wrote:
> 
> 
> On 07/11/2017 06:01 AM, Svante Signell wrote:
> > On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 03:56 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> >> On 170710-23:39+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>  Hi Svante and everybody!
> 
>  (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
>  replying to. zap
>  might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he
>  successfully
>  installed
>  OpenRC)
> 
>  Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
>  days ago now,
>  or so.
> 
>  I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.
> >>> Ok, let's see if I can help you.
> >> Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the
> >> Lurker
> >> that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k
> >> (because mail
> >> encodes in base64) in one email
> > As written by later mails on this thread, the email limit should stay
> > as it is. Larger files should be uploaded and hosted somewhere to
> > download.
> >
> >> ...but I got them:
> >>
> >> $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
> > This one is not OK, see below. This is the Debian (unpatched version)
> >
> > Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> > libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
>  I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that
>  you
>  wrote below (but is it so?):
> > No, the sysvinit packages you need are 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 and you get
> > them by adding to sources.list: (+ apt-get update)
> > sysvinit-core
> > sysvinit-utils
> > initscripts
> > bootlogd (optional)
> My bad, I forgot a few important packages to mention... xD
The bootlogd is only suggested.

Ah, first thing to say is: I've successfully installed and rebooted a couple of
times each: my clone (which I use also for testing, and which is the only that
sees ever any internet), and my master Air-Gap system.

And maybe the second thing to say is. If anyone needs the packages that
(
if those are, and I think they are; they worked for me
)
are needed to install OpenRC, get them at:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170711.035614.33ea6395.en.html
They are also hashed by me in my email in this very thread that we are writing
our discussions about OpenRC --under bad subject, but it's really too late now
to correct that-- I think its previous mail of mine that I sent, or whatever,
my Palemoon still crashes unpredictably, and can't open huge threads, and that
one is a huge thread where this new discussion belongs to...

The instructions how to get the packages are:
OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3286

And of course, you can also get them directly:
https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/Devuan-OpenRC/

Pls., guys, I think all went correctly, but I think I should leave the report
there, at:
( same topic as linked a few lines up )
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128

and not repeat it here...

> 
>  deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
>  I hope that is fine.
> >>> Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
> >>> initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)
> >> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb is what I got from zap (see
> >> above)
> > You should apt-get download sysvinit-utils and then (as I wrote to zap)
> > (version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2, not 2.88dsf-59.9):
> >
> > dpkg -i libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
> > util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
> > sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2_i386.deb
> >
> > (in one line, the mailer might wrap)
> >
> > Then you can apt-get install -s openrc and only sysvinit-rc will be
> > removed in addition to libeinfo1 librc1 openrc (0.23-1+b1) being
> > installed.
> > ___

Thanks Svante, thanks zap, thanks also Rick Moen (I even mentioned you in that
Dev1Galaxy topic linked above when I saw full shouting at me that ugly message
that you wrote about), and Adam Borowski...

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/11/2017 06:01 AM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 03:56 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> On 170710-23:39+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
 Hi Svante and everybody!

 (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
 replying to. zap
 might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he
 successfully
 installed
 OpenRC)

 Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
 days ago now,
 or so.

 I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.
>>> Ok, let's see if I can help you.
>> Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the
>> Lurker
>> that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k
>> (because mail
>> encodes in base64) in one email
> As written by later mails on this thread, the email limit should stay
> as it is. Larger files should be uploaded and hosted somewhere to
> download.
>
>> ...but I got them:
>>
>> $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
> This one is not OK, see below. This is the Debian (unpatched version)
>
> Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
 I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that
 you
 wrote below (but is it so?):
> No, the sysvinit packages you need are 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 and you get
> them by adding to sources.list: (+ apt-get update)
> sysvinit-core
> sysvinit-utils
> initscripts
> bootlogd (optional)
My bad, I forgot a few important packages to mention... xD


 deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
 I hope that is fine.
>>> Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
>>> initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)
>> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb is what I got from zap (see
>> above)
> You should apt-get download sysvinit-utils and then (as I wrote to zap)
> (version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2, not 2.88dsf-59.9):
>
> dpkg -i libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
> util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2_i386.deb
>
> (in one line, the mailer might wrap)
>
> Then you can apt-get install -s openrc and only sysvinit-rc will be
> removed in addition to libeinfo1 librc1 openrc (0.23-1+b1) being
> installed.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 03:56 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170710-23:39+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > Hi Svante and everybody!
> > > 
> > > (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
> > > replying to. zap
> > > might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he
> > > successfully
> > > installed
> > > OpenRC)
> > > 
> > > Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
> > > days ago now,
> > > or so.
> > > 
> > > I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.
> > 
> > Ok, let's see if I can help you.
> 
> Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the
> Lurker
> that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k
> (because mail
> encodes in base64) in one email

As written by later mails on this thread, the email limit should stay
as it is. Larger files should be uploaded and hosted somewhere to
download.

> ...but I got them:
> 
> $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \

This one is not OK, see below. This is the Debian (unpatched version)

> > > > Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> > > > libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > > > util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > > 
> > > I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that
> > > you
> > > wrote below (but is it so?):

No, the sysvinit packages you need are 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 and you get
them by adding to sources.list: (+ apt-get update)
sysvinit-core
sysvinit-utils
initscripts
bootlogd (optional)

> > > 
> > > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> > > I hope that is fine.
> > 
> > Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
> > initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)
> 
> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb is what I got from zap (see
> above)

You should apt-get download sysvinit-utils and then (as I wrote to zap)
(version 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2, not 2.88dsf-59.9):

dpkg -i libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_i386.deb 
sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2_i386.deb

(in one line, the mailer might wrap)

Then you can apt-get install -s openrc and only sysvinit-rc will be
removed in addition to libeinfo1 librc1 openrc (0.23-1+b1) being
installed.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 03:56:14AM +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

[cut]

> DIGRESSION
> I vote for the limit to be raised at least to 100k (and so I'm CC'ing Rick
> Moen, who, IIUC, administers Lurker)
> DIGRESSION END

I think the limit on the ML should stay at 40K, and for very good
reasons. If you need to transfer anything bigger to the whole list,
then please consider putting it on a web server.

We are putting in place a pastebin-like server for Devuan. It would
allow to post code snippets and text files (well, still not megabytes). 

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the Lurker
> that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k (because mail
> encodes in base64) in one email
> DIGRESSION
> I vote for the limit to be raised at least to 100k (and so I'm CC'ing Rick
> Moen, who, IIUC, administers Lurker)
> DIGRESSION END

Bless you, but no, I do not.

I do have an ongoing interest in, and gratitude for, the progress
towards robust OpenRC support in Devuan.  As it happens, today I 
was spending a while polishing up my 2016 page about converting Debian 8
'Jessie' to use either OpenRC or any of the four other packaged init
systems other than systemd
(http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html) -- fixing a
few nits and noting options for getting a _better_ OpenRC than the
half-assed Debian package.

I really need to do a fresh set of experiments using Devuan ASCII in a
VM (possibly using Adam Borowski's tips about util-linux).  When I have
time.

My thanks to those involved for all the good work.



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

Do the install of initscripts like this though just in case:


sudo apt install -s initscripts


that is like a way to test. ;)


glad you got the packages, I hope it helps.

Also, backup your important files first just in case. :)



On 07/10/2017 11:56 PM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170710-23:39+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>>> Hi Svante and everybody!
>>>
>>> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
>>> replying to. zap
>>> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully
>>> installed
>>> OpenRC)
>>>
>>> Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
>>> days ago now,
>>> or so.
>>>
>>> I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.
>> Ok, let's see if I can help you.
> Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the Lurker
> that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k (because mail
> encodes in base64) in one email
> DIGRESSION
> I vote for the limit to be raised at least to 100k (and so I'm CC'ing Rick
> Moen, who, IIUC, administers Lurker)
> DIGRESSION END
>
> ...but I got them:
>
> $ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
> util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb 
> -rw--- 1 mr mr  68436 2017-07-11 03:30 
> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb
> -rw--- 1 mr mr 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 
> util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> -rw--- 1 mr mr 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 
> libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> $
>
> 4dc6fcf0e33bf4b0e87430d5e94167c2b72110927dc3682b879d3295961b022f  
> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb
> 5587f1e90a1d504262e740b4f66f93c547ca32aa49026871e8f3e231980ebb30  
> util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> de3a62685fc93c50b975f7435377e0775984dfb2964a0aeea44e0d5d7b6a7a1b  
> libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
>
> (for the archives --web readers in the future--, these packages are of little
> important, Devuan will surely be fully OpenRC-friendly soon from the time of
> this writing)
>
> And also thanks to Adam Borowski whe replied as well.
>
>
 Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
 libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
 util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
>>> I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that you
>>> wrote below (but is it so?):
>> These packages still FTBFS in ascii-proposed due to a bug in pbuilder.
> Fail To Build From Source (said duckduckgo.com, the privacy-friendly engine)
>> I can send them privately to you: i386 or amd64?
>>
>>> Except, in the other email, which is some two days ago, the second
>>> line is:
>>> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
>>> and so I added that newer line, by you. I added it to, ah, here's the
>>> entire:
>> ...
>>> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
>>> I hope that is fine.
>> Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
>> initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)
> sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb is what I got from zap (see above)
>>
>>> Install which packages?
>> apt-get install sysvinit-core
>> apt-get install sysvinit-utils #Depends on util-linux see below
> I see.
>
>>> the web --for other readers, since more non-experts like me read this
>>> ML--:
>>> error processing package initscripts, because /lib/init/vars.sh
>>> missing
>>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170706.105041.4bae37b7.en.htm
>>> l 
>> If you don't have mixed versions, i.e. any newer version of utul-linux
> util-linux
>> than 2.28-1+devuan3 you don't have to worry.
> Got from zap:
> util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> (hashed further above)
>
> $ lsb_release -a
> No LSB modules are available.
> Distributor ID: Devuan
> Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii)
> Release:2.0
> Codename:   ascii
> $
>
> And it's amd64, my arch.
>
>>> (quote created manually)
 Regarding util-linux (2.29.2-1+devuan1) that version is needed in
 order
 to install sysvinit-utils (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) required by
 initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) and
 sysvinit-core (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) is needed if you want to try
 openrc out.
 In such case you need to enable ascii-proposed:
 deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
>>> I'm not sure I understand completely. But in bottom I'll give what I
>>> have
>>> installed...
 NOTE: If you are on real HW, please make sure you can recover in
 case
 something goes wrong!!!
>>> I'll have to spend a few hours, as I'm rather meticulous, but I will
>>> be able to
>>> recover in case of failure.
>> Good :)
>>
>>> Is it still necessary to be sent these source files you mentioned
>>> above?
>> Yes, until it builds properly, see above.
>>
>>> # apt-cache policy initscripts
>>> # apt-cache policy sysvinit-core
>>> sysvinit-core:
>>>   Installed: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
>>>   Candidate: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
>> Here you should see:
>> apt-cache policy initscripts
>> 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170710-23:39+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > Hi Svante and everybody!
> > 
> > (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
> > replying to. zap
> > might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully
> > installed
> > OpenRC)
> > 
> > Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
> > days ago now,
> > or so.
> > 
> > I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.
> 
> Ok, let's see if I can help you.

Svante, I got packages from zap. zap, I got your email, it's just the Lurker
that is limited to 40k (which means you can only send some 30k (because mail
encodes in base64) in one email
DIGRESSION
I vote for the limit to be raised at least to 100k (and so I'm CC'ing Rick
Moen, who, IIUC, administers Lurker)
DIGRESSION END

...but I got them:

$ ls -ltr sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb \
util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb 
-rw--- 1 mr mr  68436 2017-07-11 03:30 sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb
-rw--- 1 mr mr 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
-rw--- 1 mr mr 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
$

4dc6fcf0e33bf4b0e87430d5e94167c2b72110927dc3682b879d3295961b022f  
sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb
5587f1e90a1d504262e740b4f66f93c547ca32aa49026871e8f3e231980ebb30  
util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
de3a62685fc93c50b975f7435377e0775984dfb2964a0aeea44e0d5d7b6a7a1b  
libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb

(for the archives --web readers in the future--, these packages are of little
important, Devuan will surely be fully OpenRC-friendly soon from the time of
this writing)

And also thanks to Adam Borowski whe replied as well.


> > > Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> > > libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > > util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > 
> > I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that you
> > wrote below (but is it so?):
> 
> These packages still FTBFS in ascii-proposed due to a bug in pbuilder.
Fail To Build From Source (said duckduckgo.com, the privacy-friendly engine)
> I can send them privately to you: i386 or amd64?
> 
> > Except, in the other email, which is some two days ago, the second
> > line is:
> > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> > and so I added that newer line, by you. I added it to, ah, here's the
> > entire:
> ...
> > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> > I hope that is fine.
> 
> Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
> initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)
sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb is what I got from zap (see above)
> 
> 
> > Install which packages?
> apt-get install sysvinit-core
> apt-get install sysvinit-utils #Depends on util-linux see below

I see.

> > the web --for other readers, since more non-experts like me read this
> > ML--:
> > error processing package initscripts, because /lib/init/vars.sh
> > missing
> > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170706.105041.4bae37b7.en.htm
> > l 
> 
> If you don't have mixed versions, i.e. any newer version of utul-linux
util-linux
> than 2.28-1+devuan3 you don't have to worry.
Got from zap:
util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
(hashed further above)

$ lsb_release -a
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Devuan
Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii)
Release:2.0
Codename:   ascii
$

And it's amd64, my arch.

> > 
> > (quote created manually)
> > > Regarding util-linux (2.29.2-1+devuan1) that version is needed in
> > > order
> > > to install sysvinit-utils (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) required by
> > > initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) and
> > > sysvinit-core (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) is needed if you want to try
> > > openrc out.
> > > In such case you need to enable ascii-proposed:
> > > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> > 
> > I'm not sure I understand completely. But in bottom I'll give what I
> > have
> > installed...
> 
> > > NOTE: If you are on real HW, please make sure you can recover in
> > > case
> > > something goes wrong!!!
> > 
> > I'll have to spend a few hours, as I'm rather meticulous, but I will
> > be able to
> > recover in case of failure.
> 
> Good :)
> 
> > Is it still necessary to be sent these source files you mentioned
> > above?
> 
> Yes, until it builds properly, see above.
> 
> > # apt-cache policy initscripts
> > # apt-cache policy sysvinit-core
> > sysvinit-core:
> >   Installed: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
> >   Candidate: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
> 
> Here you should see:
> apt-cache policy initscripts
> initscripts:
>   Installed: 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2
>   Candidate: 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2
>   Version table:
>  *** 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 100
> 100 http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed/main amd64
> Packages
> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>  2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2 500
> 500 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/10/2017 06:02 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 17:54 -0400, zap wrote:
>> contrib and non-free are unsafe in my opinion...
>>
>>> #Contains no source files :(
>>> deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main 
> Just remove the entries below then. No prob ;)
>
>
> I did silly...

I use a librebooted x200. so I really don't need them. ;)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 17:54 -0400, zap wrote:
> contrib and non-free are unsafe in my opinion...
> 
> > #Contains no source files :(
> > deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main 

Just remove the entries below then. No prob ;)

> > contrib
> > non-free
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

contrib and non-free are unsafe in my opinion...


On 07/10/2017 05:44 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 15:26 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>
>> I've opened a topic:
>> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
>> and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post
>> in that topic) successfully ran:
>> apt-get source util-linux
>>
>> And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
>> ( same topic as above, the third post )
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
>> or more shortly for skim readers:
>>
>> # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> This is a bug in ascii-proposed deb-src: Sources.{gz,xz} is empty, and
> you get the latest Debian source 2.29.2-1, not 2.29.2-1+devuan1. File a
> bug!
>
> cat /etc/apt/sources.list
> ...
> #Contains no source files :(
> deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main contrib
> non-free

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 15:26 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

> I've opened a topic:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
> and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post
> in that topic) successfully ran:
> apt-get source util-linux
> 
> And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
> ( same topic as above, the third post )
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
> or more shortly for skim readers:
> 
> # apt-get build-dep util-linux

This is a bug in ascii-proposed deb-src: Sources.{gz,xz} is empty, and
you get the latest Debian source 2.29.2-1, not 2.29.2-1+devuan1. File a
bug!

cat /etc/apt/sources.list
...
#Contains no source files :(
deb-src http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main contrib
non-free

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2017-07-10 at 14:12 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> Hi Svante and everybody!
> 
> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm
> replying to. zap
> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully
> installed
> OpenRC)
> 
> Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three
> days ago now,
> or so.
> 
> I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.

Ok, let's see if I can help you.

> 
> > Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> > libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> > util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1
> 
> I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that you
> wrote below (but is it so?):

These packages still FTBFS in ascii-proposed due to a bug in pbuilder.
I can send them privately to you: i386 or amd64?

> Except, in the other email, which is some two days ago, the second
> line is:
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> and so I added that newer line, by you. I added it to, ah, here's the
> entire:
...
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> I hope that is fine.

Yes you need that line for the latest version of sysvinit* and
initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2)


> Install which packages?
apt-get install sysvinit-core
apt-get install sysvinit-utils #Depends on util-linux see below
> 
> the web --for other readers, since more non-experts like me read this
> ML--:
> error processing package initscripts, because /lib/init/vars.sh
> missing
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170706.105041.4bae37b7.en.htm
> l 

If you don't have mixed versions, i.e. any newer version of utul-linux
than 2.28-1+devuan3 you don't have to worry.

> 
> (quote created manually)
> > Regarding util-linux (2.29.2-1+devuan1) that version is needed in
> > order
> > to install sysvinit-utils (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) required by
> > initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) and
> > sysvinit-core (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) is needed if you want to try
> > openrc out.
> > In such case you need to enable ascii-proposed:
> > deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
> 
> I'm not sure I understand completely. But in bottom I'll give what I
> have
> installed...

> > NOTE: If you are on real HW, please make sure you can recover in
> > case
> > something goes wrong!!!
> 
> I'll have to spend a few hours, as I'm rather meticulous, but I will
> be able to
> recover in case of failure.

Good :)

> Is it still necessary to be sent these source files you mentioned
> above?

Yes, until it builds properly, see above.

> # apt-cache policy initscripts
> # apt-cache policy sysvinit-core
> sysvinit-core:
>   Installed: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
>   Candidate: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2

Here you should see:
apt-cache policy initscripts
initscripts:
  Installed: 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2
  Candidate: 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2
  Version table:
 *** 2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2 100
100 http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed/main amd64
Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2 500
500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64
Packages
and similar for sysvinit-core

> Svante, pls. send me the packages if needed! Or zap, you can send
> them to me
> either. As soon as I get them, I'll confirm with a short notice to
> this ML.

See above: i386 or amd64?

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/10/2017 04:37 PM, zap wrote:
>
> On 07/10/2017 02:15 PM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> On 170710-13:28-0400, zap wrote:
>>
>> Well, zap...
>>
>>> On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
 On 170710-14:12+, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> Hi Svante and everybody!
>
> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm replying 
> to. zap
> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully 
> installed
> OpenRC)
 ...
> By the way, if I get into more difficulty understanding the procedure, 
> I'll
> open a topic in Dev1Galaxy (and just link to it), not to disturb this ML 
> with
> beginners' issues.
 I've opened a topic:
 OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
 https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
 and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post in 
 that topic) successfully ran:
 apt-get source util-linux

 And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
 ( same topic as above, the third post )
 https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
 or more shortly for skim readers:

 # apt-get build-dep util-linux
 Reading package lists...
 Reading package lists...
 Building dependency tree...
 Reading state information...
 ...
   Considering libselinux1-dev:amd64 0 as a solution to 
 builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
   Re-Instated libsepol1-dev:amd64
   Re-Instated libselinux1-dev:amd64
 Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on libsystemd-dev:amd64 < none | 
 232-25 @un uH >
   Considering libsystemd-dev:amd64 1 as a solution to 
 builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
   Re-Instated libsystemd-dev:amd64
 Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >
 Done
 Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
 requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
 ...
 The following packages have unmet dependencies:
  builddeps:util-linux : Depends: systemd but it is not installable
 E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
 ...
 #

 Regards!
>>> Yep, I got it installed now though thankfully though I am curious why it
>>> isn't in stable yet the option to install openrc... regardless though it
>>> works well enough for me!
>>>
>> zap, thanks a huge mountain lot for giving me such detailed information how 
>> to
>> solve the issues on my hands... :)
>>
>> I'm joking... You're so short of any info, and apparently hardly anybody is
>> interested in studying the issues that I have (and that probably others who
>> would try and install OpenRC in Ascii would have, it's just 43 views a while
>> ago --I have opened maybe an half hour ago the:
>> Installation (the section)
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=2
>>  --that it's not very encouraging... )
>>
>> But, pls. I'm only joking, I'm not complaining, well, not in a bad way!
>>
>> Aarghhh... If anyone look up the issues that I tried to explain there, and in
>> this thread, to my best ability, I'll be thankful!
>>
> You need to install these packages with dkpg and have certain proposed
> upgrades installed...
>
> If you do that, openrc should be easier to install.
>
> DO NOT bother using gdebi to install them, it didn't work so well for me
> for certain packages... heh.
>
>
>
>

You need three packages... to make this work I cannot send them all at
once though... but they are and i quote
"util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb
sysvinit-utils_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb libfdisk1_2.29.2-1+devuan1_amd64.deb"

You need those three packages and then installing openrc will be a
simple task. :)
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 07:48:04PM +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170710-20:38+0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:28:28PM -0400, zap wrote:
> > > On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > > I've opened a topic:
> > > > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
> > 
> > > > # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> > > > Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H 
> > > > >
> > 
> > openrc in jessie isn't in the best shape; the one in stretch/ascii should be
> > fully functional though.  There's an insserv warning and that scary notice
> > during upgrades isn't that good, but I'm not aware of any other problems.
> > 
> > Should be installable as soon as util-linux is rebuilt.
> 
> Thanks for looking into this.
> 
> Tried some more:
> 
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
> 
> in short, same problem as I described in my previous to last email.
> 
> I.e., I still get those systemd-dev and others dependencies unresolved.

I don't have an Ascii VM to check right now, but I'm 99% sure my stretch
packages should work fine.

You can either grab them via apt:
wget -qO- https://angband.pl/deb/archive.html|apt-key add -

deb http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-stretch main
deb-src http://angband.pl/debian nosystemd-stretch main

Or rebuild yourself:
https://angband.pl/debian/pool/main/u/util-linux/util-linux_2.29.2-1.0nosystemd1.dsc

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170710-20:38+0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:28:28PM -0400, zap wrote:
> > On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > I've opened a topic:
> > > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
> 
> > > # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> > > Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >
> 
> > Yep, I got it installed now though thankfully though I am curious why it
> > isn't in stable yet the option to install openrc... regardless though it
> > works well enough for me!
> 
> openrc in jessie isn't in the best shape; the one in stretch/ascii should be
> fully functional though.  There's an insserv warning and that scary notice
> during upgrades isn't that good, but I'm not aware of any other problems.
> 
> Should be installable as soon as util-linux is rebuilt.

Thanks for looking into this.

Tried some more:

OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249

in short, same problem as I described in my previous to last email.

I.e., I still get those systemd-dev and others dependencies unresolved.

Maybe I will have to concur with user Dev1 
( same topic on Dev1Galaxy )
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3233
and stop dreaming...

Any clues what I should do to get this done?

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:28:28PM -0400, zap wrote:
> On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > I've opened a topic:
> > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128

> > # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> > Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >

> Yep, I got it installed now though thankfully though I am curious why it
> isn't in stable yet the option to install openrc... regardless though it
> works well enough for me!

openrc in jessie isn't in the best shape; the one in stretch/ascii should be
fully functional though.  There's an insserv warning and that scary notice
during upgrades isn't that good, but I'm not aware of any other problems.

Should be installable as soon as util-linux is rebuilt.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170710-13:28-0400, zap wrote:

Well, zap...

> 
> On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > On 170710-14:12+, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> >> Hi Svante and everybody!
> >>
> >> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm replying to. 
> >> zap
> >> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully 
> >> installed
> >> OpenRC)
> > ...
> >> By the way, if I get into more difficulty understanding the procedure, I'll
> >> open a topic in Dev1Galaxy (and just link to it), not to disturb this ML 
> >> with
> >> beginners' issues.
> > I've opened a topic:
> > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
> > and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post in that 
> > topic) successfully ran:
> > apt-get source util-linux
> >
> > And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
> > ( same topic as above, the third post )
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
> > or more shortly for skim readers:
> >
> > # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> > Reading package lists...
> > Reading package lists...
> > Building dependency tree...
> > Reading state information...
> > ...
> >   Considering libselinux1-dev:amd64 0 as a solution to 
> > builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
> >   Re-Instated libsepol1-dev:amd64
> >   Re-Instated libselinux1-dev:amd64
> > Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on libsystemd-dev:amd64 < none | 
> > 232-25 @un uH >
> >   Considering libsystemd-dev:amd64 1 as a solution to 
> > builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
> >   Re-Instated libsystemd-dev:amd64
> > Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >
> > Done
> > Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
> > requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
> > ...
> > The following packages have unmet dependencies:
> >  builddeps:util-linux : Depends: systemd but it is not installable
> > E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
> > ...
> > #
> >
> > Regards!
> 
> Yep, I got it installed now though thankfully though I am curious why it
> isn't in stable yet the option to install openrc... regardless though it
> works well enough for me!
> 

zap, thanks a huge mountain lot for giving me such detailed information how to
solve the issues on my hands... :)

I'm joking... You're so short of any info, and apparently hardly anybody is
interested in studying the issues that I have (and that probably others who
would try and install OpenRC in Ascii would have, it's just 43 views a while
ago --I have opened maybe an half hour ago the:
Installation (the section)
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=2
 --that it's not very encouraging... )

But, pls. I'm only joking, I'm not complaining, well, not in a bad way!

Aarghhh... If anyone look up the issues that I tried to explain there, and in
this thread, to my best ability, I'll be thankful!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/10/2017 11:26 AM, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170710-14:12+, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> Hi Svante and everybody!
>>
>> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm replying to. 
>> zap
>> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully 
>> installed
>> OpenRC)
> ...
>> By the way, if I get into more difficulty understanding the procedure, I'll
>> open a topic in Dev1Galaxy (and just link to it), not to disturb this ML with
>> beginners' issues.
> I've opened a topic:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
> and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post in that 
> topic) successfully ran:
> apt-get source util-linux
>
> And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
> ( same topic as above, the third post )
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
> or more shortly for skim readers:
>
> # apt-get build-dep util-linux
> Reading package lists...
> Reading package lists...
> Building dependency tree...
> Reading state information...
> ...
>   Considering libselinux1-dev:amd64 0 as a solution to 
> builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
>   Re-Instated libsepol1-dev:amd64
>   Re-Instated libselinux1-dev:amd64
> Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on libsystemd-dev:amd64 < none | 
> 232-25 @un uH >
>   Considering libsystemd-dev:amd64 1 as a solution to 
> builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
>   Re-Instated libsystemd-dev:amd64
> Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >
> Done
> Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
> requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
> ...
> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
>  builddeps:util-linux : Depends: systemd but it is not installable
> E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
> ...
> #
>
> Regards!

Yep, I got it installed now though thankfully though I am curious why it
isn't in stable yet the option to install openrc... regardless though it
works well enough for me!

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170710-14:12+, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> Hi Svante and everybody!
> 
> (and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm replying to. zap
> might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully 
> installed
> OpenRC)
...
> By the way, if I get into more difficulty understanding the procedure, I'll
> open a topic in Dev1Galaxy (and just link to it), not to disturb this ML with
> beginners' issues.

I've opened a topic:
OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128
and yes I have (one snag left to understand, as per the second post in that 
topic) successfully ran:
apt-get source util-linux

And I have stumbled upon the issue, apparently with systemd. See:
( same topic as above, the third post )
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3236
or more shortly for skim readers:

# apt-get build-dep util-linux
Reading package lists...
Reading package lists...
Building dependency tree...
Reading state information...
...
  Considering libselinux1-dev:amd64 0 as a solution to 
builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
  Re-Instated libsepol1-dev:amd64
  Re-Instated libselinux1-dev:amd64
Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on libsystemd-dev:amd64 < none | 
232-25 @un uH >
  Considering libsystemd-dev:amd64 1 as a solution to 
builddeps:util-linux:amd64 9998
  Re-Instated libsystemd-dev:amd64
Broken builddeps:util-linux:amd64 Depends on systemd:amd64 < none @un H >
Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
...
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 builddeps:util-linux : Depends: systemd but it is not installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
...
#

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

Hi Svante and everybody!

(and zap, to whom you right as second person in the email I'm replying to. zap
might give useful advice, since he --later-- reported he successfully installed
OpenRC)

Svante, I'm taking your suggestion in the other thread some three days ago now,
or so.

I want to try OpenRC in my Devuan.

On 170617-14:32+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sat, 2017-06-17 at 05:59 -0400, zap wrote:
> > okay, then. The computer I have it on needs some work anyways.
> 
> Hi zap,

I'm not sure about the below:
 
> Did you see my mail? I can send you the packages
> libfdisk1 2.29.2-1+devuan1
> util-linux2.29.2-1+devuan1

I believe/hope all that is necessary is now in these repos that you wrote
below (but is it so?):

> until they are available if you are on i386. Then you can try openrc
> out, just add to your /etc/apt/sources.list:
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii  main
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed  main

Except, in the other email, which is some two days ago, the second line is:
deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
and so I added that newer line, by you. I added it to, ah, here's the entire:
# cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-ascii.list
# /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-ascii.list
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii main
deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii main
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main
deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates main
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main
deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-security main
# ascii-proposed, for openrc
deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main
#

I hope that is fine.

> for the other packages.
> and
> apt-get update
> apt-get install ...
Install which packages?
Note at proofreading: probably those that you said to zap that you would send,
and which by now might be in the ascii-proposed repo.

From the other email of yours (let me paste it here, and it is this email on
the web --for other readers, since more non-experts like me read this ML--:
error processing package initscripts, because /lib/init/vars.sh missing
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170706.105041.4bae37b7.en.html 
): 

(quote created manually)
> Regarding util-linux (2.29.2-1+devuan1) that version is needed in order
> to install sysvinit-utils (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) required by
> initscripts (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) and
> sysvinit-core (2.88dsf-59.9+devuan2) is needed if you want to try openrc out.
> In such case you need to enable ascii-proposed:
> deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed main

I'm not sure I understand completely. But in bottom I'll give what I have
installed...

Reading the thread of yours now (I've had other business in the meantime,
writing this for 1/2 of a day by now)...

> NOTE: If you are on real HW, please make sure you can recover in case
> something goes wrong!!!
I'll have to spend a few hours, as I'm rather meticulous, but I will be able to
recover in case of failure.

IOW: I'm not asking for any warranties. I liked using OpenRC in Gentoo very
much... It is generally great, and it does not depend on Dbus (or D-bus), a
program which I... don't like. It is touted by the sans-systemd camp in Gentoo
(still a majority, but I'm not following since maybe two months or so) for that
free-from-dbus feature.
> 
> If you are on amd64 or some other arch I can send you the source files
> (or you can install and build them yourself by: adding
> deb-src http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed  main
Is it still necessary to be sent these source files you mentioned above?

Or should I see if this works?
> apt-get update
> apt-get source util-linux (Does not work for me. The Sources file is
> unfortunately empty)
> apt-get build-dep util-linux
> cd util-linux-2.29.2
> dpkg-buildpackage -b
> cd ../build-area
> dpkg -i util-linux_2.29.2-1+devuan1_.deb libfdisk1_2.29.2-
> 1+devuan1_.deb
> 

I am going to try it even as I wait for a reply.

By the way, if I get into more difficulty understanding the procedure, I'll
open a topic in Dev1Galaxy (and just link to it), not to disturb this ML with
beginners' issues.

So here's what I have installed (I ran 'apt-get update' last night after having
added ascii-proposed to my sources):

# apt-cache policy util-linux
util-linux:
  Installed: 2.28-1+devuan3
  Candidate: 2.28-1+devuan3
  Version table:
 *** 2.28-1+devuan3 500
500 http://packages.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages
500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages
100 http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed/main amd64 Packages
500 http://packages.devuan.org/devuan ascii/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

# apt-cache policy initscripts
initscripts:
  Installed: 2.88dsf-59.3+devuan2
  Candidate: 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

Hi Miroslav,

I am well aware that Google is a big company, and like all big companies
they can function in an unethical manner. There are no exceptions. I catch
SpaceX in lies and omissions all of the time even though I obviously admire
what they are doing with rockets.

I worked for their outside counsel as a case strategist in Oracle v.
Google, mostly collecting evidence that Sun had in its time committed all
of the acts that Oracle was accusing Google of committing with Sun's
software. In this case, Google's defense was in the interest of Free
Software. I wasn't allowed to go on the stand because of a blog posting I'd
previously written that they didn't want me questioned upon, so they
replaced me with Nimmer. If you're going to be replaced, being replaced by
Nimmer, who is cited by courts an incredible number of times, isn't bad.

It is true that we are taken advantage of by big companies. But the ones
which really irk me are the ones who disregard the license like VMWare, and
lately Grsecurity. It happens that some of these companies have paid me to
fix their problems and come into compliance.

Our licenses are the rules we made. They are the only things we really have
a right to expect people to follow. Google is pretty good about following
the rules, and if ever I think they aren't, I have access to management and
can fix it.

Grsecurity's complaint is that they made free software, and people aren't
doing what they want with it. So, they became a proprietary business. But
note that they didn't even develop a trademark for their proprietary
product that is different from the Free Software, because their product is
the Free Software. I am fine with their being a proprietary business as
long as they don't try to take Free Software private while they're doing
it, or make proprietary derivative works of Free Software - and of course
that's just what they are doing.

If they want to be proprietary, they should make a security product that
isn't so interleaved with Linux that it can't help but be in violation, or
they should make it for the BSD kernel where they can fit into the rules. I
can't work up any sympathy for them until they do that or find some means
of distributing their product that doesn't so clearly break the rules.

Thanks

Bruce
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170702-17:22-0700, Bruce Perens wrote:
> This might make a little more sense if you still can't understand:
> 
> By operating under their previously-stated policy of denying further
> service to clients who exercise their right to distribute under the GPL
> license, Open Source Security Inc. creates an expectation that exercise of
> the re-distribution right required under the terms of the  GPL will lead to
Just taking note of the supposed herewith:
> business damage to the customer.
expressed care for users of the Linux kernel, which is users of all GNU/Linuces
distros.
> This practice effectively is an added term
> to the license, and addition of such a term is prohibited under language in
> GPL section 6. This leads to termination of the GPL license granted to Open
> Source Security Inc., and thus to copyright infringement of the Linux
> Kernel by that entity. In addition, the GPL is breached as a contract from
> the copyright holders of the Linux software to which Open Source Security
> Inc. and the customer are both joined.

And Schmoog the Schmoogle taking over the control of security of Linux, which
is being happening, which has been happening since the
(for-that-purpose-founded) inception of the KSPP-project... Look at even the
icon! It's a parody on PaX's icon, only KSPP looks like a freaking idiotic
cop...

And Schmoog the Schmoogle taking over the control of security of Linux, who
cares about that! Let's beat the poor! And for the rich!

And the fact that those two "poor" (only in comparison, I sincerely hope grsec
guys are not really poor as I am currently, which means, surviving on a few
hundred euros per month total, but only poor in comparison to the relatively
luxurient living Mr Linus, the guy who keeps releasing bad kernels to us
all)...

[And the fact that those two "poor"] have done the golden contribution to the
machine inside the OS, the kernel of all GNU/Linuces, who cares about that...

You are the principal author of DFSG. And all the fundaments of Free Software
and related movements shine to me as if I were reading what was thought of and
written in the stars and not on the Earth, and to get to read basically
bike-shedding criticism of grsecurity when the injustice that cries to God is
what spender wrote about, in the real news of this thread
(
this thread that ought to have remained under subject:

grsecurity ripoff by Google, with Linus' approval WAS: I have a question about 
libsystemd0 in devuan ascii

but, in what looks like, and may and may not have been so, a move to divert
attention from the subject of discussion, while staying with it --but in
defence of the Schmoog, and of Mr Linux-- so at the cost of keeping a
completely non-related subject for more emails to follow in reply: yes I'm
talking about this apparent diversion at the aforementioned cost:
< same subject as this email, kept to this email to keep in the thread >
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170627.231950.12bf1f5c.en.html
It is as described above because it followed --just not by replying to it--
this email:
grsecurity ripoff by Google, with Linus' approval WAS: I have a question about 
libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170627.120949.727e804b.en.html
( where the subject line is perfectly appropriately changed, and even the "with
Linus' approval" holds, although it's more likely "Linus in cahoots", but no
proof of that, and "approval" is mild enough )
)

Yes, [to get to read basically bike-shedding criticism of grsecurity when the
injustice that cries to God is the truth that spender wrote, in the real news
of this thread] is very sad, to read so from the principal author of DFSG.

I'll repeat the news with more of my comments, but, first, I strongly believe
that there is not much to add about the alleged GPL license infringement by
Open Source Security Inc. after what Rick Moen wrote in one of his replies to
you, Bruce.

I will now, for clarity, insert from that quoted message into this email:

On 170627-22:22-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):
> 
> > I did offer to discuss the case with companies and their counsel,
> > under NDA, without charge. In addition, I just added to the article
> > parenthetically that I am willing to discuss why fair-use does not
> > apply, but would not complicate that article with it.
> 
> Makes sense.
...
> 
> > > The key bit is your sentence 'GPL version 2 section 6 explicitly
> > > prohibits the addition of terms such as this redistribution
> > > prohibition', which does not accord with my own understanding of that
> > > clause or of pragmatic copyright caselaw -- as I've said.
> > 
> > 
> > OK. I just read it again:
> > 
> >  6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the
> > Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the
> > original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to
> > these terms and conditions.  You may not impose any further 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

This might make a little more sense if you still can't understand:

By operating under their previously-stated policy of denying further
service to clients who exercise their right to distribute under the GPL
license, Open Source Security Inc. creates an expectation that exercise of
the re-distribution right required under the terms of the  GPL will lead to
business damage to the customer. This practice effectively is an added term
to the license, and addition of such a term is prohibited under language in
GPL section 6. This leads to termination of the GPL license granted to Open
Source Security Inc., and thus to copyright infringement of the Linux
Kernel by that entity. In addition, the GPL is breached as a contract from
the copyright holders of the Linux software to which Open Source Security
Inc. and the customer are both joined.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Bruce Perens  wrote:

> The specific text breached is "You may not impose any further
> restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein."
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Bruce Perens  wrote:
>
>> My legal counsel says it's a direct breach of the license, not of
>> business law.
>>
>> By the way, the next issue of Berkeley Technology Law Journal has this
>> article
>> 
>> which I co-authored with a law teacher at Boalt Hall.
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

The specific text breached is "You may not impose any further restrictions
on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein."

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Bruce Perens  wrote:

> My legal counsel says it's a direct breach of the license, not of business
> law.
>
> By the way, the next issue of Berkeley Technology Law Journal has this
> article
> 
> which I co-authored with a law teacher at Boalt Hall.
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

My legal counsel says it's a direct breach of the license, not of business
law.

By the way, the next issue of Berkeley Technology Law Journal has this
article

which I co-authored with a law teacher at Boalt Hall.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 at 23:05:08 +
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> It is the fact that the two actions are connected that makes it a breach.
> There are very many actions that are legal in isolation, but not when one
> is carried out as a consequence of another. The most common instances are
> of course in anti-discrimination law.

  I think you mean such an act goes against national (USA) business law, but
this does not mean that it goes against the GPL licence.  You might be right
that GRSecurity's actions violate some state or national statute, but not
that they violate the GPL licence.

> As an expert witness, I would have no trouble connecting them for a judge
> and showing how they were tantamount to an added term under section 6.

  Do you mean GPL sec. 6, "Conveying Non-Source Forms"?


Alessandro


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

It is the fact that the two actions are connected that makes it a breach.
There are very many actions that are legal in isolation, but not when one
is carried out as a consequence of another. The most common instances are
of course in anti-discrimination law.

As an expert witness, I would have no trouble connecting them for a judge
and showing how they were tantamount to an added term under section 6.

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017, 13:49 Alessandro Selli 
wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 at 16:50:28 -0700
> Bruce Perens  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult <
> > enrico.weig...@gr13.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.
> >> But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
> >> how can that business model work ?
> >
> >
> > It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
> > redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But grsecurity
> > doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that they tell
> > customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer be allowed to
> be a
> > customer or get the next version.
> >
> > IMO that's violating the GPL.
>
>   I don't remember reading anywhere in the GPL a clause forcing someone to
> entertain a commercial relationship with someone they'd rather not.  It is
> stated you are free to sell or give away GPL'ed code, but it does not say
> you
> must sell it to anyone who asks you to do so.  I know of no licence that
> contains such a clause.
>
>
> Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 at 16:50:28 -0700
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult <
> enrico.weig...@gr13.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.
>> But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
>> how can that business model work ?
>
>
> It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
> redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But grsecurity
> doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that they tell
> customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer be allowed to be a
> customer or get the next version.
>
> IMO that's violating the GPL.

  I don't remember reading anywhere in the GPL a clause forcing someone to
entertain a commercial relationship with someone they'd rather not.  It is
stated you are free to sell or give away GPL'ed code, but it does not say you
must sell it to anyone who asks you to do so.  I know of no licence that
contains such a clause.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 29/06/2017 à 17:16, Adam Borowski a écrit :

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 03:15:33PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 29/06/2017 à 14:51, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :

Hmm, something similar could be used to create thoose /dev/disk/by-*,
for a static /dev:

   find /dev -type b | xargs blkid | sort | some_script_to_populate_by_xxx

But if that is only a transformed /sys/class/block, wouldn't it be
easier if there was a /sys/class/uuid or similar ?

Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well as Udev
and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option for Udev
because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In Vdev, Jude made
the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid which hasn't this
special format.

So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to create
the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't reliable!

Also man blkid says:

# It  is  recommended  to  use lsblk(8) command to get information about
# block devices rather than blkid.  lsblk(8) provides more  information,
# better  control on output formatting and it does not require root per‐
# missions to get actual information.

So as you're making a new tool to parse this information, it's better to
use the newest and greatest source, thus avoiding that deprecated format.
Using the library rather than a cmdline program is also an option.

blkid does not require root permission. It will actually examine 
the block device if you are root; otherwise it will read its cache. 
AFAIU, this means you rely on some service ( the hotplugger) to invoke 
it as root and refresh the cache when something happens. I hope lsblk is 
more than a wrapper for blkid :-)


Didier


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 29/06/2017 à 18:06, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :

Didier:
...

 Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well as
Udev and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option for
Udev because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In Vdev,
Jude made the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid which
hasn't this special format.

Ok.


 So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to
create the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't reliable!

Heh, funny world, isn't it.

///

Since you can mount a fs by its uuid or label:

# blkid /dev/md7
/dev/md7: UUID="b3a4343f-ea9f-442e-911b-994e70ef2c5c" TYPE="xfs"
# mount --uuid b3a4343f-ea9f-442e-911b-994e70ef2c5c /Net
# df /Net
Filesystem  1K-blocks   Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/md7   1952749916 1615159700 337590216  83% /Net
# umount /Net/
# df /Net
Filesystem 1K-blocks  Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/root 849332 60964728008   8% /
# ls -l /dev/disk
ls: cannot access '/dev/disk': No such file or directory
#

Isn't /dev/disk/by* redundant, couldn't we just deprecate them,
don't that ?

These links are a conveniency. You don't need to invoke blkid or 
lsblk to know immediately what's there.



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Didier:
...
>  For people wanting to give a look at what's going through the 
> uevent netlink, here is a small C program to dump it:
...

$ ./a.out 
add@/devices/pci:00/:00:10.4/usb1/1-2
ACTION=add
DEVPATH=/devices/pci:00/:00:10.4/usb1/1-2
SUBSYSTEM=usb
MAJOR=189
MINOR=5
...
SEQNUM=1634
add@/devices/pci:00/:00:10.4/usb1/1-2/1-2:1.0
...
SEQNUM=1635
add@/devices/pci:00/:00:10.4/usb1/1-2/1-2:1.1
...
SEQNUM=1636

Nice, thanks Didier.
Every new device seems to start with "add@/" and end with "SEQNUM=".

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Adam Borowski:
...
> > Also man blkid says:
>
> # It  is  recommended  to  use lsblk(8) command to get information about
> # block devices rather than blkid.  lsblk(8) provides more  information,
> # better  control on output formatting and it does not require root per‐
> # missions to get actual information.
...

Seems that the man pages has a circular dependancy:

# man lsblk | grep -A3 ' -f'
   -f, --fs
  Output info about filesystems.  This option is equivalent to "-o
  NAME,FSTYPE,LABEL,MOUNTPOINT".   The  authoritative  information
  about filesystems and raids is provided by the blkid(8) command.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Didier:
...
> Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well as 
> Udev and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option for 
> Udev because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In Vdev, 
> Jude made the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid which 
> hasn't this special format.

Ok.

> So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to 
> create the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't reliable!

Heh, funny world, isn't it.

///

Since you can mount a fs by its uuid or label:

# blkid /dev/md7
/dev/md7: UUID="b3a4343f-ea9f-442e-911b-994e70ef2c5c" TYPE="xfs"
# mount --uuid b3a4343f-ea9f-442e-911b-994e70ef2c5c /Net 
# df /Net 
Filesystem  1K-blocks   Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/md7   1952749916 1615159700 337590216  83% /Net
# umount /Net/
# df /Net
Filesystem 1K-blocks  Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/root 849332 60964728008   8% /
# ls -l /dev/disk
ls: cannot access '/dev/disk': No such file or directory
#

Isn't /dev/disk/by* redundant, couldn't we just deprecate them,
don't that ?

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 03:15:33PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 29/06/2017 à 14:51, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :
> > Hmm, something similar could be used to create thoose /dev/disk/by-*,
> > for a static /dev:
> > 
> >   find /dev -type b | xargs blkid | sort | some_script_to_populate_by_xxx
> > 
> > But if that is only a transformed /sys/class/block, wouldn't it be
> > easier if there was a /sys/class/uuid or similar ?

>Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well as Udev
> and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option for Udev
> because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In Vdev, Jude made
> the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid which hasn't this
> special format.
> 
>So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to create
> the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't reliable!

> > Also man blkid says:

# It  is  recommended  to  use lsblk(8) command to get information about
# block devices rather than blkid.  lsblk(8) provides more  information,
# better  control on output formatting and it does not require root per‐
# missions to get actual information.

So as you're making a new tool to parse this information, it's better to
use the newest and greatest source, thus avoiding that deprecated format.
Using the library rather than a cmdline program is also an option.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 29/06/2017 à 15:15, Didier Kryn a écrit :

  Please find it in attachment. The archive contains four files:

README
etc/init.d/mdev  -- The start/stop script for Sysvinit
etc/mdev.conf-- The necessary configuration file for mdev
sbin/mdev-disk   -- An experimental script to manage /dev/disk/by-label
   -- and /dev/disk/by-uuid

  I might restart experimenting with it some day...

Hmm, something similar could be used to create thoose /dev/disk/by-*,
for a static /dev:

  find /dev -type b | xargs blkid | sort | 
some_script_to_populate_by_xxx


But if that is only a transformed /sys/class/block, wouldn't it be
easier if there was a /sys/class/uuid or similar ?

Also man blkid says:

# man blkid | grep -A6 ' -L label$'
-L label
   Look up the device that uses this label (equal to: -l 
-o  device
   -t  LABEL=).   This lookup method is able to 
reliably use
   /dev/disk/by-label udev symlinks  (dependent  on a  
setting  in
   /etc/blkid.conf).   Avoid using the symlinks directly; 
it is not
   reliable to use  the  symlinks  without 
verification.   The  -L

   option works on systems with and without udev.

so if /dev/disk/by-* isn't reliable, why do we have them ?

Regards,
/Karl Hammar



   Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well 
as Udev and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option 
for Udev because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In 
Vdev, Jude made the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid 
which hasn't this special format.


   So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to 
create the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't 
reliable!


For people wanting to give a look at what's going through the 
uevent netlink, here is a small C program to dump it:


/* Print uevents from netlink -- Author: Didier Kryn  */
/* With command-line argument "-noudev", skip events from libudev */
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 

#define BUFSIZE 4096
int main( int argc, char **argv )
{
  char b[BUFSIZE];
  struct sockaddr_nl nladdr;
  int ns, len, i, noudev;
  char *c, *max;

  /*-- check option to skip libudev events --*/
  noudev = 0;
  if(argc>1)
{
  if(!strcmp(argv[1], "-noudev")) noudev =1;
  else fprintf(stderr, "nluevent: ignore unknown argument %s\n", 
argv[1]);

}

  /* create and open netlink socket -*/
  ns = socket(PF_NETLINK, SOCK_DGRAM, NETLINK_KOBJECT_UEVENT);
  if( ns == -1 ) goto error;
  len = sizeof(b);
  /* set socket receive buffer size to the size of our own buffer */
  if(geteuid()) i = setsockopt(ns, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVBUF, , 
sizeof(len));

  else i = setsockopt(ns, SOL_SOCKET, SO_RCVBUFFORCE, , sizeof(len));
  if( i< 0) goto error;
  /* set socket address */
  memset(, 0, sizeof(struct sockaddr_nl));
  nladdr.nl_family = AF_NETLINK;
  nladdr.nl_pid = getpid();
  nladdr.nl_groups = -1;
  /* bind */
  if ( bind(ns, (void *), sizeof(struct sockaddr_nl)) )
goto error;

  /*-- receive and print forever --*/
  while(1)
{
  len = recv ( ns, , sizeof(b), MSG_TRUNC );
  if(len == -1) break;
  else if(len > sizeof(b))
{
  fprintf(stderr, "Netlink message exceeded buffer size by %d chars. "
  "Message truncated.\n", len - sizeof(b) );
  len = sizeof(b);
}

  if(noudev && !strncmp("libudev", b,7)) continue; /* skip libudev 
event */


  max=b+len;
  /* uevent datagrams contain several strings separated by nulls */
  for( c=b; c

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 29/06/2017 à 14:51, k...@aspodata.se a écrit :

Didier:

Le 26/06/2017 à 23:57, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:25:40 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:

   mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:

   1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid |
by-path | by-uuid]

   I tried to add this feature by the mean an mdev-called
script ~ a year ago in a Busybox OS, and succeeded easily with
by-label and by-uuid. I don't know the usage of the others anyway.

Could you please post that shellscript and a couple sentences about how
to install it?


  Please find it in attachment. The archive contains four files:

README
etc/init.d/mdev  -- The start/stop script for Sysvinit
etc/mdev.conf-- The necessary configuration file for mdev
sbin/mdev-disk   -- An experimental script to manage /dev/disk/by-label
   -- and /dev/disk/by-uuid

  I might restart experimenting with it some day...

Hmm, something similar could be used to create thoose /dev/disk/by-*,
for a static /dev:

  find /dev -type b | xargs blkid | sort | some_script_to_populate_by_xxx

But if that is only a transformed /sys/class/block, wouldn't it be
easier if there was a /sys/class/uuid or similar ?

Also man blkid says:

# man blkid | grep -A6 ' -L label$'
-L label
   Look up the device that uses this label (equal to: -l -o  device
   -t  LABEL=).   This lookup method is able to reliably use
   /dev/disk/by-label udev symlinks  (dependent  on  a  setting  in
   /etc/blkid.conf).   Avoid using the symlinks directly; it is not
   reliable to use  the  symlinks  without  verification.   The  -L
   option works on systems with and without udev.

so if /dev/disk/by-* isn't reliable, why do we have them ?

Regards,
/Karl Hammar



   Everybody is using blkid to build thiese links, my script as well as 
Udev and Vdev. You probably noticed that blkid has a special option for 
Udev because Udev people are too lazzy to parse the response. In Vdev, 
Jude made the parsing job to be compatible with Busybox's blkid which 
hasn't this special format.


   So blkid authors on one hand provide a special format for Udev to 
create the symlinks, and on the other hand claim that they aren't reliable!


Didier

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Didier:
> Le 26/06/2017 à 23:57, Steve Litt a écrit :
> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:25:40 +0200
> > Didier Kryn  wrote:
> >>   mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:
> >>
> >>   1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid |
> >> by-path | by-uuid]
> >>
> >>   I tried to add this feature by the mean an mdev-called
> >> script ~ a year ago in a Busybox OS, and succeeded easily with
> >> by-label and by-uuid. I don't know the usage of the others anyway.
> > Could you please post that shellscript and a couple sentences about how
> > to install it?
> >
>  Please find it in attachment. The archive contains four files:
> 
> README
> etc/init.d/mdev  -- The start/stop script for Sysvinit
> etc/mdev.conf-- The necessary configuration file for mdev
> sbin/mdev-disk   -- An experimental script to manage /dev/disk/by-label
>   -- and /dev/disk/by-uuid
> 
>  I might restart experimenting with it some day...

Hmm, something similar could be used to create thoose /dev/disk/by-*, 
for a static /dev:

 find /dev -type b | xargs blkid | sort | some_script_to_populate_by_xxx

But if that is only a transformed /sys/class/block, wouldn't it be 
easier if there was a /sys/class/uuid or similar ?

Also man blkid says:

# man blkid | grep -A6 ' -L label$'
   -L label
  Look up the device that uses this label (equal to: -l -o  device
  -t  LABEL=).   This lookup method is able to reliably use
  /dev/disk/by-label udev symlinks  (dependent  on  a  setting  in
  /etc/blkid.conf).   Avoid using the symlinks directly; it is not
  reliable to use  the  symlinks  without  verification.   The  -L
  option works on systems with and without udev.

so if /dev/disk/by-* isn't reliable, why do we have them ?

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/06/2017 à 23:57, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:25:40 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:



  mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:

  1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid |
by-path | by-uuid]

  I tried to add this feature by the mean an mdev-called
script ~ a year ago in a Busybox OS, and succeeded easily with
by-label and by-uuid. I don't know the usage of the others anyway.

Could you please post that shellscript and a couple sentences about how
to install it?


Please find it in attachment. The archive contains four files:

README
etc/init.d/mdev  -- The start/stop script for Sysvinit
etc/mdev.conf-- The necessary configuration file for mdev
sbin/mdev-disk   -- An experimental script to manage /dev/disk/by-label
 -- and /dev/disk/by-uuid

I might restart experimenting with it some day...

Didier



Mdev-test.tgz
Description: application/compressed-tar
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:19:50AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:
> On 27.06.2017 11:06, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> >..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois
> >to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity...
> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/
> 
> wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
> how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?

The gpl places no restrictions at all on selling code at any price whatsoever.
It's just that gpl allows the person you sell it to to do the same,
compete with you, and undersell you by as much as he wants.  The end 
result of such competition is a very low market price.

-- hendrik.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

Actually, I have this from RMS. Nothing from Eben:

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Richard Stallman  wrote:

>
> I am not trying to study the GRsecurity case because (0) it's
> complicated, and it would take a lot of time to think about, (1) the
> FSF has no say in the matter (it is about Linux) and (2) I don't think
> the copany would heed whatever I might say.
>
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

Go ahead and ask them. I think you'll be surprised.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):
>
> > Actually, I'm writing a recommendation that customers stay away from
> > grsecurity because they could become contributory infringers. I have no
> > doubt that it's actionable, and the _lawyers_ I work with aren't nearly
> in
> > agreement with you.
>
> Well, unless this gets litigated, we'll just have to politely agree to
> disagree.
>
> I think RMS and Prof. Moglen would, however, be quite amazed by this
> proposition that a GPLv2 licence grant prohibits terminating customer
> contractual business relationships and contractual entitlement to future
> releases -- rights nowhere vouchsafed by GPLv2.  I wonder what they'd
> say if we asked them?
>
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):

> Actually, I'm writing a recommendation that customers stay away from
> grsecurity because they could become contributory infringers. I have no
> doubt that it's actionable, and the _lawyers_ I work with aren't nearly in
> agreement with you.

Well, unless this gets litigated, we'll just have to politely agree to
disagree.

I think RMS and Prof. Moglen would, however, be quite amazed by this
proposition that a GPLv2 licence grant prohibits terminating customer
contractual business relationships and contractual entitlement to future
releases -- rights nowhere vouchsafed by GPLv2.  I wonder what they'd
say if we asked them?

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

Actually, I'm writing a recommendation that customers stay away from
grsecurity because they could become contributory infringers. I have no
doubt that it's actionable, and the _lawyers_ I work with aren't nearly in
agreement with you.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):
>
> > It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
> > redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But grsecurity
> > doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that they tell
> > customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer be allowed to
> > be a customer or get the next version.
> >
> > IMO that's violating the GPL.
>
> IMO, terminating a customer relationship and contractual entitlement to
> future releases is nothing like a 'restriction on the recipients'
> exercise of the rights granted herein' within the meaning of GPLv2
> clause 6, because zero impediment is thereby imposed on licensee's
> lawful exercise of licence rights.  Commercial support and updates are
> nowhere guaranteed by the licence terms.
>
> You obviously disagree.  Judges would get to decide, provided the claim
> were ever adjudicated, but I think that outcome's wildly improbable
> because plaintiffs aren't dumb enough to bring such cases.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net):

> Entirely different scenario. They don't own the whole kernel - they just
> picked it from the net, changed it and redistribute the changed version.
> This is exactly where the GPL's viral effect is supposed to kick in.

OK, the reason I posed multiple hypotheticals is that your original
claim was categorical and didn't clarify what scenario you were talking
about.  Let's move on to #2.

> >Hypothetical #2.  I find a copy of a very nice, fast, good-looking X11
> >(FLTK-based) MUA by Pim van Riezen named Post Office, that used to be
> >freely distributed on the Internet but has vanished after van Riezen
> >discontinued maintenance.  I offer you a source code instance for €10.
> >Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell you that codebase.
> 
> That's just the distribution case. You're just acting as the postman,
> and of course you may charge a free for that. But you can't deny the
> receiver to redistribute it again.

Ah, _now_ you're talking about 'deny[ing] the receiver [permission] to
redistribute it again.'  But you weren't before.  I wish you'd taken the
trouble to be clearer.  It would have saved time.

Before, you were suggesting there's some reason why people might not be
permitted to _sell_ software issued under GPL.  You wrote;

  these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
  how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?

It's compatible with the GPL because selling copylefted software is
always and everywhere lawful and in no way prohibited by the licence
terms or anything else.

Offering copylefted code for sale and then purporting to prohibit its
subsequent redistribution are entirely different things.  You spoke as
if the one implies the other, which is just not so.


> If you redistribute the binary, you'll also have to hand out the source.

Well, or accompany it with a written offer good for at least three years
as described in GPLv2 clause 3b, or, for qualifying examples,
information about availability as described in GPLv3 clause 3c.  (If
we're talking about [A]GPLv3, the references are slightly different.

One of use used to be the unofficial software licensing expert at VA
Linux Systems, and I'm pretty sure it's not you.  ;->


> Seems we had a misunderstanding: of course you can sell it, but you
> can't deny the customers to redistribute it again.

Problem:  Nobody cited in recent discussion has purported to do that --
not to mention the fact that you didn't say that before.


> This raises the question why anybody should pay at all, once it's
> redistributed for free.

FSF continues to sell copies of GNU software, FWIW.  ;->

To ask why buyers buy and why sellers sell, you'll just have to ask
them yourself.  (Over on OSI licencse-discuss, an endless supply of
people keep coming in demanding that we explain and justify open source
business models to them.  They inevitably go away empty-handed, as it's 
just Not Our Jobs, Man.)



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 17:01:32 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
<20170628000131.gb28...@linuxmafia.com>:

> Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):
> 
> > It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
> > redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But
> > grsecurity doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that
> > they tell customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer
> > be allowed to be a customer or get the next version.
> > 
> > IMO that's violating the GPL.
> 
> IMO, terminating a customer relationship and contractual entitlement
> to future releases is nothing like a 'restriction on the recipients'
> exercise of the rights granted herein' within the meaning of GPLv2
> clause 6, because zero impediment is thereby imposed on licensee's
> lawful exercise of licence rights.  Commercial support and updates are
> nowhere guaranteed by the licence terms.
> 
> You obviously disagree.  Judges would get to decide, provided the
> claim were ever adjudicated, but I think that outcome's wildly
> improbable because plaintiffs aren't dumb enough to bring such cases.

..never underestimate the accidental wisdom of dumb people... ;oD

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 28.06.2017 01:46, Rick Moen wrote:


OK, let's say I just wrote a codebase and declare it to be under GPLv2
licence terms.  I haven't yet put it up for download, but am willing to
give you a source code instance for €10.  Please explain to me why I may
not offer to sell you that codebase.


Entirely different scenario. They don't own the whole kernel - they just
picked it from the net, changed it and redistribute the changed version.
This is exactly where the GPL's viral effect is supposed to kick in.


Hypothetical #2.  I find a copy of a very nice, fast, good-looking X11
(FLTK-based) MUA by Pim van Riezen named Post Office, that used to be
freely distributed on the Internet but has vanished after van Riezen
discontinued maintenance.  I offer you a source code instance for €10.
Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell you that codebase.


That's just the distribution case. You're just acting as the postman,
and of course you may charge a free for that. But you can't deny the
receiver to redistribute it again.

If you redistribute the binary, you'll also have to hand out the source.
And you may not impose any restrictions on further redistribution.


You suggested that one may not sell GPL software.


Seems we had a misunderstanding: of course you can sell it, but you
can't deny the customers to redistribute it again. This raises the
question why anybody should pay at all, once it's redistributed for
free. So, to make that business case work, you'd have to prevent your
customers from redistribution. This, in turn, violates the GPL and
immediately voids the license - IOW: you may not even use the software
yourself.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Bruce Perens (br...@perens.com):

> It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
> redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But grsecurity
> doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that they tell
> customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer be allowed to
> be a customer or get the next version.
> 
> IMO that's violating the GPL.

IMO, terminating a customer relationship and contractual entitlement to
future releases is nothing like a 'restriction on the recipients'
exercise of the rights granted herein' within the meaning of GPLv2
clause 6, because zero impediment is thereby imposed on licensee's
lawful exercise of licence rights.  Commercial support and updates are
nowhere guaranteed by the licence terms.

You obviously disagree.  Judges would get to decide, provided the claim
were ever adjudicated, but I think that outcome's wildly improbable
because plaintiffs aren't dumb enough to bring such cases.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 01:35:00 +0200, metux IT consult wrote in message 
<626f5214-191c-1f90-b806-652ae892c...@gr13.net>:

> On 28.06.2017 01:24, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net):
> > 
> >> wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel
> >> patches ? how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?
> > 
> > Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell a codebase subject
> > to GPLv[23] licence terms.
> 
> By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.

.."after" works too.

> But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
> how can that business model work ?

..this goes anywhere from "common decency", "charity" to "profitable
business."

> > Please note that FSF itself has been selling collections of GNU
> > software for well over 30 years.
> 
> Software *collections*, Distro. So, you're paying for the transport
> medium and the collection as a whole, not the individual packages.

..e.g. Red Hat sell their GPL binaries at a nice profit, AFAIK.

> Anybody can pick out individual source trees from commercial distros
> and redistribute them at will. You just can't do that with the
> distribution media 1:1.

..it depends, smart people would put their source on their 
"1:1 binary:source" media and sell it all at once, dearly.
You only need to offer source code to those you distributed 
GPL binaries to, AFAIU the GPLs. 


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Bruce Perens]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult <
enrico.weig...@gr13.net> wrote:

>
> By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.
> But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
> how can that business model work ?


It doesn't, unless you have understanding customers who just don't
redistribute because they want you to stay in business. But grsecurity
doesn't work that way, it is alleged. It is alleged that they tell
customers that if they redistribute, they will no longer be allowed to be a
customer or get the next version.

IMO that's violating the GPL.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net):

> By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.
> But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
> how can that business model work ?

OK, let's say I just wrote a codebase and declare it to be under GPLv2
licence terms.  I haven't yet put it up for download, but am willing to
give you a source code instance for €10.  Please explain to me why I may
not offer to sell you that codebase.

Hypothetical #2.  I find a copy of a very nice, fast, good-looking X11
(FLTK-based) MUA by Pim van Riezen named Post Office, that used to be
freely distributed on the Internet but has vanished after van Riezen
discontinued maintenance.  I offer you a source code instance for €10.
Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell you that codebase.

(In fact, van Riezen used LGPL, and in fact I offer it free of charge
at http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/apps/postoffice/ , having saved it
from total oblivion.)

> Software *collections*, Distro. So, you're paying for the transport
> medium and the collection as a whole, not the individual packages.

FSF has for over 30 years _also_ sold individual GNU codebases.  (I
mention that even though you've just made a distinction without a
difference.)

> Anybody can pick out individual source trees from commercial distros
> and redistribute them at will.

If they are open source, yes.  (Some distros include proprietary 
components that may not lawfully be redistributed at will.)  But that's 
not what you said, upthread.  You suggested that one may not sell GPL
software.  That is completely untrue, and has always been so.

I think you are perhaps confused about copyleft and how it interacts
with commerce.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 01:19:50 +0200, metux IT consult wrote in message 
:

> On 27.06.2017 11:06, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> > ..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois
> > to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity...
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/
> 
> wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
> how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?

..selling=distribution, perfectly legal under the GPLs, provided 
you comply to all terms of the relevant GPLs.

..if you own copyright, you can even dual license it.

..now, if you e.g. add extra contractual conditions that deny 
anyone rights they should enjoy under copyright law or under 
any GPL version, you may find yourself in trouble.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 28.06.2017 01:24, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net):


wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?


Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell a codebase subject to
GPLv[23] licence terms.


By selling, I mean, you'll first have to pay before you get the code.
But anybody republish it at will (as long as complying to GPL), so
how can that business model work ?


Please note that FSF itself has been selling collections of GNU software
for well over 30 years.


Software *collections*, Distro. So, you're paying for the transport
medium and the collection as a whole, not the individual packages.
Anybody can pick out individual source trees from commercial distros
and redistribute them at will. You just can't do that with the
distribution media 1:1.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net):

> wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
> how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?

Please explain to me why I may not offer to sell a codebase subject to
GPLv[23] licence terms.  

Please note that FSF itself has been selling collections of GNU software
for well over 30 years.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 27.06.2017 11:06, Arnt Karlsen wrote:


..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois
to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/


wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ?
how is that compatible w/ the gpl ?

--mtx
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:56:24 -0400, zap wrote in message 
<505f058b-0fe3-16b2-157d-352d4d56b...@posteo.de>:

> how does one remove that package without removing anything else?
> 
> 
> I mean how do you remove it from being depended on by nearly every bit
> of software...
> 
> 
> I want to install openrc so that is why I ask...

..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois 
to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 12:25:40 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:


>  mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:
> 
>  1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid | 
> by-path | by-uuid]
> 
>  I tried to add this feature by the mean an mdev-called
> script ~ a year ago in a Busybox OS, and succeeded easily with
> by-label and by-uuid. I don't know the usage of the others anyway.

Could you please post that shellscript and a couple sentences about how
to install it?

Thanks,
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:09:04AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quite so.  Reading netlink for kernel uevents seems like a solution for
> > a problem I happily don't have.
> 
> I'm afraid that with this mindset you're acting like Lennart, who ignores
> valid and widespread use cases that just happen to not affect his laptop.
> Static devices is a setup that works on only straightforward systems.

Unlike Lennart, I'm not purporting to solve everyone's problems, nor
shoving my preferences onto anyone by any means whatsoever.

(Was that actually difficult?)

I happen to _use_ straightforward systems, hence I find (what I
consider) straightforward software solutions to my personal liking and
am willing to do a modest amount of extra local work to use them.  You
seem to have decided that this is A Bad Thing and wish me to feel regret
via an extremely contrived poetteringisation analogy.  I'l decline the
opportunity to feel regret, at this dramatic juncture in our narrative,
but I do appreciate the offer.  Some other time, perhaps.

> Thus, while it is worth supporting that on minimal containers, those are not
> systems that boot on their own.

Sucks to be them.  ;->


> Thus, it's better to simplify things and standardize on

Oh, you wish to launch a _new_ discussion about what to 'standardize
on'?  By all means, please feel free.  I don't have any special interest
in that at this time, but go right ahead.  I'll merely note, before you
do, that I was extremely clear that I was _not_ talking about that.

(Was that actually difficult?)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:09:04AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quite so.  Reading netlink for kernel uevents seems like a solution for
> a problem I happily don't have.

I'm afraid that with this mindset you're acting like Lennart, who ignores
valid and widespread use cases that just happen to not affect his laptop.
Static devices is a setup that works on only straightforward systems.

Thus, while it is worth supporting that on minimal containers, those are not
systems that boot on their own.  Even the crummiest semi-embedded machine
that has enough oomph to run a generic distribution has so much power that
trying to avoid netlink is a waste of time.  It'd be like coding an init or
an editor in assembly.

Thus, it's better to simplify things and standardize on a solution that
strives to work for everyone (ie, udev/eudev/vdev/new mdev with netlink
support).


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):

> That is a nice answer to a question that was not asked.

It is exactly a correct answer to your immediately antecedent question
'As long as hotpluging works for you, why should you worry?  But what
when it's broken?'  It's a shame that doesn't help you (and I sincerely
regret that), but with luck it will assist someone else.

If, in the alternative, you are expecting me to remotely debug your
vaguely described Tandberg problem, then, as Dread Pirate Roberts
observed to Inigo during the sword fight, 'Get used to disappointment.'  

(Railery notwithstanding, I actually _was_ trying to help.)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb Rick Moen:
> Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):
> 
> The answer to your implied question of 'What do I use if the older
> hotplug subsystem is no longer supported by my very recent Linux kernel?'[1] 
> is 'Use a different utility to pick up kernel uevents from the netlink 
> interface and feed them to mdev or whatever you are using to process
> dynamic device requirements.'

That is a nice answer to a question that was not asked.



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):

> Sure I cannot use  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug any more, but that's just
> another inconvinience. As long as hotpluging works for you, why should
> you worry? But what when it's broken?

As I believe I already clarified, I _personally_ currently have no use
for hotplugging of any description.

The answer to your implied question of 'What do I use if the older
hotplug subsystem is no longer supported by my very recent Linux kernel?'[1] 
is 'Use a different utility to pick up kernel uevents from the netlink 
interface and feed them to mdev or whatever you are using to process
dynamic device requirements.'

This answer was already posted a couple of times.  You're welcome.

Want a automagical solution that is all-singing, all-dancing and doesn't
require you to set anything up?  There's always udev and various workalikes. 
Choose and be happy.

[1] Question assumes this to be the case, which is either true or not.
You might want to check whether CONFIG_HOTPLUG merely wasn't set in your
compiled kernel.   Might be gone from your version, or might be
'deprecated' but buildable.  You want to know which, you'll need to do
the checking yourself.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb Rick Moen:
> Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):
> 
> > yes, 2.6 series worked that way :-)
> > 
> > Problem is:
> > 
> > $ uname -r
> > 4.9.0-0.bpo.3-amd64
> 
> Well, exploring improved kernels is good.  But I'm still puzzled about
> what you're claiming the problem is.  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is
> merely something you construct (the location of the usermode helper
> hotplug mechanism) -- for kernel revisions that include hotplug.  But
> you don't necessarily _need_ to have mdev getting uevent data via
> hotplug, anyway. 

Sure I cannot use  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug any more, but that's just another 
inconvinience. As long as hotpluging works for you, why should you worry? But 
what when it's broken?

For example Tandberg RDX drives: with the 4.x kernel, udev does not show any 
events when inserting a cardrige. About year ago (3.x kernel and older udev) I 
got "ACTION=add" when inserting a cardridge. Now i only get these events when I 
insert the cardridge and then call "partprobe" as root. Great improvement. So 
probably there is something is a bit odd. Same goes for CD/DVD. Was it udev? 
Was it the new kernel? Did sombody mess up the transition from HAL? Let me 
stress: I do not have these  problems on BSD, nor when I start my timemachine 
and go to wheezy.

Nik




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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017, Bruce Perens wrote:

>Debian is a dead end. It got too mired in anal-retentive process
>that reinforced its inward-facing nature.  Devuan is the one
>distribution that was brave enough to deal with problems even if
>it's difficult and causes messy conflict.  We are brave enough to
>change a few lines of code if libsystemd changes its API. Who
>really thinks stuff like that is a challenge?  We should be brave
>enough to face outward.

while being barely able to follow the huge thread, I think this sums
up your precious contribution to the discussion and the vision we
should be adopting with Devuan.

its not an easy task and the challenge is really that of going beyond
the overdue fight with zealotism and with systemd as you write. We
need to reach an higher ground in terms of documentation, simplicity,
usability and developer experience.  we live in this world getting
ready to have many more developers able to do things.


ciao


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:
> 
> 1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid |
> by-path | by-uuid]

These are important things to note, for anyone who actually likes and
uses those features.  (So, thanks.)

As it happens, I don't.  Persistent device naming is a neat trick, though, 
and has its uses and necessities.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/persistent_block_device_naming 
explains:

  If your machine has more than one SATA, SCSI or IDE disk controller,
  the order in which their corresponding device nodes are added is
  arbitrary.  This may result in device names like /dev/sda and /dev/sdb
  switching around on each boot, culminating in an unbootable system,
  kernel panic, or a block device disappearing. Persistent naming solves
  these issues.

I've never had a Linux system where that is even potentially an issue,
and don't expect ever to.  However, it's a real solution to a problem
some people reportedly do have.  (My main suggestion to people having
device-naming problems because they used multiple different-driver SATA
controllers, or multiple USB cards, or muliple SAS cards, would be
'Well, Don't Do That, Then.'[1])


> 2) It doesn't come with a library for applications to retrieve
> information about the devices. This affects primarily the X11
> configuration, which means you will need to provide some Xorg.conf
> file, like in the old times.

Quite so.  xorg.conf is _still_ dead-simple to programmatically generate,
though.  Just do 'Xorg -configure'.  Done.  Then 'cp xorg.conf.new
/etc/X11/xorg.conf' .  Edit to suit.


> I don't know if its affects also other subsystems, like audio.

Neale Pickett wrote on
https://woozle.org/neale/papers/runit-as-init.html (where he used mdev
with runit in Arch Linux:

   Stuff that never quite worked

   I had to set up a dmix device for ALSA, which usually worked, but
   sometimes things would get an exclusive lock on the sound hardware,
   which prevented other things from making sound.

   I could never get Chrome to get sound from the USB webcam I had to use
   at work. It would list it as a microphone source, and occasionally if I
   kept selecting every mic source over and over, it would start working.
   But it was never consistent, and I was never able to figure out why not.

   I never figured out how to get X11 to use evdev devices.

[1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/D/Don-t-do-that-then-.html
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> Busybox, as from version 1.24.1, has a netlink listener meant to
> fork mdev (or any other app) on uevents. This is meant precisely to
> emulate hotplug behaviour in case it is disabled in kernel. The
> applet is named "uevent" . https://www.busybox.net/

There are other reasonable examples, too, such as Neale Pickett's:

  Setting up mdev as a hotplug listener

  The mdev utility of busybox can replace most of what udev does. You just
  need to have the kernel run mdev as the hotplug userspace thingy.

  Recent precompiled kernels have removed support for
  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug, so it's necessary to run a userspace program
  to get netlink events. You can use the one I wrote[link] if you like.

  You'll need to configure mdev to set up file permissions that work for
  you. A reasonable set of defaults is available as another part of my
  AUR.[link]

  Since X11 wants udevd for something or other, you'll also need to tell
  it to use whatever the old method is. I don't quite understand what they
  do, but the files you need are in my runit-desktop AUR.[link]

https://woozle.org/neale/papers/arch-runit.html

Direct link to his uevent/netlink-handler program:
https://woozle.org/neale/g.cgi/aur/runit-init/tree/src/hurtplurg.c


> Nathanael Copa has considered transforming Mdev so as to read
> the netlink - together with other improvements. This has some
> advantages, such as not needing dirty tricks to serialize the
> processing of uevents. The advantage of keeping Mdev as it is now is
> that it is not constantly running (and consuming ressources) while
> it is rarely working except at startup; this maybe important on tiny
> systems.

Quite so.  Reading netlink for kernel uevents seems like a solution for
a problem I happily don't have.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):

> yes, 2.6 series worked that way :-)
> 
> Problem is:
> 
> $ uname -r
> 4.9.0-0.bpo.3-amd64

Well, exploring improved kernels is good.  But I'm still puzzled about
what you're claiming the problem is.  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is
merely something you construct (the location of the usermode helper
hotplug mechanism) -- for kernel revisions that include hotplug.  But
you don't necessarily _need_ to have mdev getting uevent data via
hotplug, anyway. 

As it says on https://woozle.org/neale/papers/runit-as-init.html, 

  Hot-plugging devices (like udev)

  For a while, you could echo something into a file under /proc and the
  kernel would run that for every uevent. You could set that program to
  mdev from busybox, and have a pretty well working system at that point.

  Newer kernels disabled support for this legacy interface. Now, you're
  supposed to monitor for Netlink events. But that's not too tough, it
  turns out. The kernel docs even have an example program to gather
  uevents.

Picking up uevents from the kernel via a netlink
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netlink) socket is thus the
intended long-term replacement for the older hotplug stuff.  So, if your
kernel has no ability to support hotplug any more, then that's where
your dev-manager would need to get uevents from.  (It's where udev now
does so, if I understand correctly.)  

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev#Troubleshooting and 
https://landley.net/kdocs/pending/hotplug.txt
point out the sort of value one might set it to, in the case of kernels
that _do_ support hotplug, and why.  

I suspect you'll find these useful, if you wish to explore further.
https://git.busybox.net/busybox/plain/docs/mdev.txt
https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev/Automount_USB
http://data.gpo.zugaina.org/funtoo-overlay/sys-fs/mdev/files/mdev.init


Just found: a neat piece of software in the s6 suite:
https://skarnet.org/software/s6-linux-utils/s6-uevent-listener.html

   s6-uevent-listener listens to the netlink interface for uevents (also
   called "hotplug" or "udev" events), and writes those uevents to its
   standard output, using a simple format.
   [...]

   s6-uevent-listener binds to the netlink interface and listens for
   hotplug events, as the udev program does. 
   [...]

   Notes

   o  s6-uevent-listener is a daemon; it should be run under a proper
  supervision system such as s6.
   o  If you are running s6-uevent-listener, prog... should be the only
  program handling uevents, which means that /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug
  should be empty.
   o  Examples of valid uses of s6-uevent-listener:
  o  s6-uevent-listener | s6-uevent-spawner mdev
  o  s6-uevent-listener | mdevd
  o  Those examples can be made safer by using a supervision 
 system: under s6 or s6-rc, write a service pipeline where 
 s6-uevent-listener is a producer and s6-uevent-spawner mdev 
 or mdevd is a consumer. This setup has the advantage, among 
 others, that you can restart the netlink listener and the 
 event handler separately. 


For my own use-case, I'm still not convinced that any of this matters,
i.e., I don't expect to have ever-changing hardware for which I need 
automagical kernel handling, and any firmware loading isn't exactly
brain surgery to do with a simple init action.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/06/2017 à 10:40, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit :

Hi !

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb k...@opal.lcl.aspodata.se:

 From https://busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html
mdev
 mdev [-s]
 -s  Scan /sys and populate /dev during system boot
 It can be run by kernel as a hotplug helper. To activate it:
 echo /bin/mdev >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug It uses /etc/mdev.conf
 with lines [-]DEVNAME UID:GID PERM [>|=PATH] [@|$|*PROG]

What mdev probably is missing is libudev which some programs whishes to
use.

/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is missing in debian & devuan kernel since some years 
now. Is there a way (despite recompiling) to get it back?

Nik




Busybox, as from version 1.24.1, has a netlink listener meant to 
fork mdev (or any other app) on uevents. This is meant precisely to 
emulate hotplug behaviour in case it is disabled in kernel. The applet 
is named "uevent" . https://www.busybox.net/


Nathanael Copa has considered transforming Mdev so as to read the 
netlink - together with other improvements. This has some advantages, 
such as not needing dirty tricks to serialize the processing of uevents. 
The advantage of keeping Mdev as it is now is that it is not constantly 
running (and consuming ressources) while it is rarely working except at 
startup; this maybe important on tiny systems.


Didier



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Rick Moen:
> Quoting k...@aspodata.se (k...@aspodata.se):
...
> > You have to configure mesa to use sysfs instead of udev,
> > compile xorg-server without udev, and set up your own config file.
> 
> I thank you again.  This time, på engelska.  The reason my upthread
> references were limited to server (headless) deployments is that I
> figured adding a local X11 engine without udev would probably bring 
> complications, but I didn't know for certain where.

xmodmap was deprecated in favour of xkb, since there was a need to be 
able to identify the keyboard layout and set it - even for multiple 
keyboards attached.

X introduced a udev depenancy, to be able to identify the layout as 
provided/made possible with xkb, all other things (except my oldie 
serial mouse) it can find out itself without the need of udev.

Just a wild guess and extrapolation, but this smells multiseat,
without it x wouldn't need udev.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb Rick Moen:
> root@mini:/proc# uname -r
> 2.6.39-3.slh.1-aptosid-amd64
> root@mini:/proc# 

yes, 2.6 series worked that way :-)

Problem is:

$ uname -r
4.9.0-0.bpo.3-amd64

Nik


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 11:27:46AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Well, it's not. Try for yourself:
> 
> # echo "/some/binary" >  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug
> bash: /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug: No such file or directory

It's been deprecated for three ages and two forevers, so it's not surprising
it's not compiled in.
 
> /proc/config.gz is gone for ages, too.  It' now a textfile /boot/config-*,
> which may or may not represent the current kernel config.

Recompile with CONFIG_IKCONFIG_PROC.  This is not done in Debian's kernels
as using packages means the text file won't come out of sync with its kernel
(both are versioned); they're in the same directory so even fancy mounts
won't put them apart.  Using a text file is better than /proc as you can
obtain the config of a non-running kernel.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/06/2017 à 04:40, Adam Borowski a écrit :

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 10:28:15PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

Wait a minute. This is getting interesting. I seem to hear you saying
that, until Devuan has vdev, I could replace udev with mdev from
busybox, but only if I don't use a "full-fledged desktop environment."

As far as I understand, mdev knows only about a subset of devices, and has
no fancy rules implemented by udev; vdev on the other hand tries to do as
much of udev does as reasonably possible.

mdev's purpose is to boot a simple rescue system.


You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

Depends if you want just simple "mount /dev/sda" or some raid on encrypted
lvm.  Connected via iSCSI for an extra bonus.


Meow!


Mdev does not come by default with a config file with all possible 
devices one can find on a computer. But, is has a simple config file in  
which you can add all the devices you want, provided you know what you 
are doing. This is the main job a distro would need to provide it.


AFAIR.

Didier

Didier


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Didier Kryn]

Le 25/06/2017 à 22:02, Rick Moen a écrit :

As Nelson says, other common options include mdev, smdev, and nldev.
And there's also eudev, though it seems quixotic to me.  Personally, I'm
lastingly fond of Rob Landley's mdev, as it's_really_  minimal, and
doesn't succumb to the desire to satisfy every possible feature request
that I still see in vdev.  (Not that I'm in any way less than admiring
of the project generally.  I just don't need all of what it does.)

https://git.busybox.net/busybox/tree/docs/mdev.txt
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev

Quoting the latter:

   Will mdev work on my system?

   The mdev application is definitely suitable as long as the system does
   not use a full-fledged desktop environment. Note that a desktop
   environment is not required to run AbiWord, Firefox, GIMP, Gnumeric,
   etc. However, KOffice applications like KMail seem to pull in most of
   KDE as a dependency. In general, when using KDE or GNOME, mdev is not
   suitable. Also using LVM might be troublesome.

Seems to hit my use-cases perfectly, as I don't care whether DEs have
indigestion, or whether the worst DE-related apps (like KMail) do.  For
perspective, you get mdev for free if you have Busybox, so that'll give
you some idea how small and simple it is.


mdev is fine for a server. It is lacking a few features w/r udev:

1) It doesn't build /dev/disk/[by-id | by-label | by-partuuid | 
by-path | by-uuid]


I tried to add this feature by the mean an mdev-called script ~ 
a year ago in a Busybox OS, and succeeded easily with by-label and 
by-uuid. I don't know the usage of the others anyway.


2) It doesn't come with a library for applications to retrieve 
information about the devices. This affects primarily the X11 
configuration, which means you will need to provide some Xorg.conf file, 
like in the old times. I don't know if its affects also other 
subsystems, like audio.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting k...@aspodata.se (k...@aspodata.se):

> Åhh, det var så lite så!

You are indeed a gentleman.  ;->

> You have to configure mesa to use sysfs instead of udev,
> compile xorg-server without udev, and set up your own config file.

I thank you again.  This time, på engelska.  The reason my upthread
references were limited to server (headless) deployments is that I
figured adding a local X11 engine without udev would probably bring 
complications, but I didn't know for certain where.

> I see you have Hugin (thought), but you "forgot" Munin (memory) on your 
> web site.

Heh.  FWIW, my three machines in the late 1990s were hugin, munin, and ymir, 
but the latter two were retired some while back.  Gone but not forgotten.


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):

> Well, it's not. Try for yourself:
> 
> # echo "/some/binary" >  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug
> bash: /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug: No such file or directory

Well

root@mini:/proc# /bin/true > /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug 
root@mini:/proc# 


> /proc/config.gz is gone for ages, too.

root@mini:/proc# stat /proc/config.gz 
  File: ‘/proc/config.gz’
  Size: 30307 Blocks: 0  IO Block: 1024   regular file
Device: 3h/3dInode: 4026531985  Links: 1
Access: (0444/-r--r--r--)  Uid: (0/root)   Gid: (0/root)
Access: 2017-06-26 02:39:23.069018610 -0700
Modify: 2017-06-26 02:39:23.069018610 -0700
Change: 2017-06-26 02:39:23.069018610 -0700
 Birth: -
root@mini:/proc#


{shrug}  I'm reporting only what I'm seeing in front of me.  Above is a
Debian-testing system in a virtual machine on my laptop, originally
installed using an aptosid ISO file.  (This is the same VM system I 
used in researching
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html before
repointing it to 'testing' instead of what was then 8.0/stable.  
Thus the Aptosid-compiled binary kernel:

root@mini:/proc# uname -r
2.6.39-3.slh.1-aptosid-amd64
root@mini:/proc# 


FWIW, Aptosid was a really cool project[1], dormant since a 2013 release 
(http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=Aptosid).  Its close
cousin Siduction is still healthy:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=Siduction

[1] Quarterly installable live CD ISOs based on sid=unstable +
stablising packages.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Rick Moen:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
...
> > You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
> > underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
> > looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
> > commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

And, btw, server and client are software concepts that has spilled over 
to hw.

> As Mr. Karl Hammar just got through saying (tack så mycket, herr Hammar), 

Åhh, det var så lite så!

> it's entirely possible you need nothing beyond an old-fashioned static
> /dev tree, per se (not counting annoying and spurious package
> dependencies that claim software requires udev or libudev even where it
> doesn't really).  Except for one majorly annoying thing:  Xorg packages
> have lately been compiled to assume udev support, though reportedly this
> too can be worked around by creating the old-school xorg.conf you may
> have forgotten used to be routine:
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/274149/setting-up-xorg-input-devices-without-udev
...

You have to configure mesa to use sysfs instead of udev,
compile xorg-server without udev, and set up your own config file.

> r...@linuxmafia.comabout it, but we do know that it ate cats.

I see you have Hugin (thought), but you "forgot" Munin (memory) on your 
web site.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi!

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb Rick Moen:
> Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):
> 
> > Hi !
> > 
> > Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb k...@opal.lcl.aspodata.se:
> > > From https://busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html
> > > mdev
> > > mdev [-s]
> > > -s  Scan /sys and populate /dev during system boot
> > > It can be run by kernel as a hotplug helper. To activate it:
> > > echo /bin/mdev >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug It uses /etc/mdev.conf
> > > with lines [-]DEVNAME UID:GID PERM [>|=PATH] [@|$|*PROG]
> > > 
> > > What mdev probably is missing is libudev which some programs whishes to 
> > > use.
> > 
> > /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is missing in debian & devuan kernel since
> > some years now. 
> 
> Ummm
> 
> /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug appears to be a /proc key you _create_.
> As to whether hotplug support is present in your kernel, what does 
> 'zless /proc/config.gz | grep CONFIG_HOTPLUG=' say?
> 
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2111278/correct-linux-kernel-configuration-for-hotplug
> https://serverfault.com/questions/303085/what-is-mdev-and-how-to-dev-nodes-get-created-in-linux

Well, it's not. Try for yourself:

# echo "/some/binary" >  /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug
bash: /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug: No such file or directory

/proc/config.gz is gone for ages, too. It' now a textfile /boot/config-*, which 
may or may not represent the current kernel config.

Nik

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at):

> Hi !
> 
> Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb k...@opal.lcl.aspodata.se:
> > From https://busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html
> > mdev
> > mdev [-s]
> > -s  Scan /sys and populate /dev during system boot
> > It can be run by kernel as a hotplug helper. To activate it:
> > echo /bin/mdev >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug It uses /etc/mdev.conf
> > with lines [-]DEVNAME UID:GID PERM [>|=PATH] [@|$|*PROG]
> > 
> > What mdev probably is missing is libudev which some programs whishes to 
> > use.
> 
> /proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is missing in debian & devuan kernel since
> some years now. 

Ummm

/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug appears to be a /proc key you _create_.
As to whether hotplug support is present in your kernel, what does 
'zless /proc/config.gz | grep CONFIG_HOTPLUG=' say?

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2111278/correct-linux-kernel-configuration-for-hotplug
https://serverfault.com/questions/303085/what-is-mdev-and-how-to-dev-nodes-get-created-in-linux


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Wait a minute. This is getting interesting. I seem to hear you saying
> that, until Devuan has vdev, I could replace udev with mdev from
> busybox, but only if I don't use a "full-fledged desktop environment."
 
The cited folks on the Gentoo wiki, IMO, were erring on the side of
caution, there.  I'm guessing that they are vaguely thinking of
DE-oriented applications like KMail that expect to call libudev to
'introspect and enumerate devices on the local system
(https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/libudev.html).  

Now, personally, I don't give a rat's ass about libudev or its syscalls,
and think any userspace application that requires those is broken by
design -- but the Gentoo wiki people realise some people do like them.

> Can I assume for this email thread that a "desktop environment" is a UI
> that has a distinct part that serves as a window manager? If so, what
> makes a desktop enironment "full-fledged?" Would it be by any chance
> that it gets started up by a display manager, instead of by the startx
> command?

Nope.  You're overthinking it.  See above.

> You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
> underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
> looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
> commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

As Mr. Karl Hammar just got through saying (tack så mycket, herr Hammar), 
it's entirely possible you need nothing beyond an old-fashioned static
/dev tree, per se (not counting annoying and spurious package
dependencies that claim software requires udev or libudev even where it
doesn't really).  Except for one majorly annoying thing:  Xorg packages
have lately been compiled to assume udev support, though reportedly this
too can be worked around by creating the old-school xorg.conf you may
have forgotten used to be routine:
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/274149/setting-up-xorg-input-devices-without-udev

I'm not going to make promises, though, about what annoyances you'd
encounter in ditching udev/libudev for mdev or static /dev.  That's what
testing is for (e.g., in VirtualBox or similar).

-- 
Cheers,Long ago, there lived a creature with a 
Rick Moen  voice like a vacuum cleaner.  We know little
r...@linuxmafia.comabout it, but we do know that it ate cats.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi !

Am Montag, 26. Juni 2017 schrieb k...@opal.lcl.aspodata.se:
> From https://busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html
> mdev
> mdev [-s]
> -s  Scan /sys and populate /dev during system boot
> It can be run by kernel as a hotplug helper. To activate it:
> echo /bin/mdev >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug It uses /etc/mdev.conf
> with lines [-]DEVNAME UID:GID PERM [>|=PATH] [@|$|*PROG]
> 
> What mdev probably is missing is libudev which some programs whishes to 
> use.

/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug is missing in debian & devuan kernel since some years 
now. Is there a way (despite recompiling) to get it back?

Nik


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[karl]

Steve Litt:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 13:02:01 -0700
> Rick Moen  wrote:
> 
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
> > 
> > Quoting the latter:
> > 
> >   Will mdev work on my system?
> > 
> >   The mdev application is definitely suitable as long as the system
> > does not use a full-fledged desktop environment. Note that a desktop
> >   environment is not required to run AbiWord, Firefox, GIMP, Gnumeric,
> >   etc. However, KOffice applications like KMail seem to pull in most
> > of KDE as a dependency. In general, when using KDE or GNOME, mdev is
> > not suitable. Also using LVM might be troublesome.
> 
> Wait a minute. This is getting interesting. I seem to hear you saying
> that, until Devuan has vdev, I could replace udev with mdev from
> busybox, but only if I don't use a "full-fledged desktop environment."

From https://busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html
mdev
mdev [-s]
-s  Scan /sys and populate /dev during system boot
It can be run by kernel as a hotplug helper. To activate it:
echo /bin/mdev >/proc/sys/kernel/hotplug It uses /etc/mdev.conf
with lines [-]DEVNAME UID:GID PERM [>|=PATH] [@|$|*PROG]

What mdev probably is missing is libudev which some programs whishes to 
use.

> Can I assume for this email thread that a "desktop environment" is a UI
> that has a distinct part that serves as a window manager? If so, what
> makes a desktop enironment "full-fledged?" Would it be by any chance
> that it gets started up by a display manager, instead of by the startx
> command?

A desktop environment is simply a X-session where some program covers 
or uses the root window to present a destop metaphor. There is no 
reason why you couldn't start that from startx, xinit or a display 
manager. "Full-fledged" is probably intended to mean something with 
lots of bells and whistles.

> You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
> underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
> looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
> commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

You could also just use a traditional static /dev, given that you can
compile in whatever is needed to boot. It will work when your root is
on some kind of simple disk setup. What you need udev et al. for is 
usb, complex disk setups, auto kbd and config file in X and probably 
other things I don't know about.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 10:28:15PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Wait a minute. This is getting interesting. I seem to hear you saying
> that, until Devuan has vdev, I could replace udev with mdev from
> busybox, but only if I don't use a "full-fledged desktop environment."

As far as I understand, mdev knows only about a subset of devices, and has
no fancy rules implemented by udev; vdev on the other hand tries to do as
much of udev does as reasonably possible.

mdev's purpose is to boot a simple rescue system.

> You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
> underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
> looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
> commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

Depends if you want just simple "mount /dev/sda" or some raid on encrypted
lvm.  Connected via iSCSI for an extra bonus.


Meow!
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⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 13:02:01 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev
> 
> Quoting the latter:
> 
>   Will mdev work on my system?
> 
>   The mdev application is definitely suitable as long as the system
> does not use a full-fledged desktop environment. Note that a desktop
>   environment is not required to run AbiWord, Firefox, GIMP, Gnumeric,
>   etc. However, KOffice applications like KMail seem to pull in most
> of KDE as a dependency. In general, when using KDE or GNOME, mdev is
> not suitable. Also using LVM might be troublesome.

Wait a minute. This is getting interesting. I seem to hear you saying
that, until Devuan has vdev, I could replace udev with mdev from
busybox, but only if I don't use a "full-fledged desktop environment."

Can I assume for this email thread that a "desktop environment" is a UI
that has a distinct part that serves as a window manager? If so, what
makes a desktop enironment "full-fledged?" Would it be by any chance
that it gets started up by a display manager, instead of by the startx
command?

You're a server guy, whereas I'm a desktop guy who likes to have his
underlying operating system built like a server. Given my situation, it
looks to me like I'd need to just replace udev commands with mdev
commands in a few rc scripts and init scripts. That sound reasonable?

Thanks for letting us know about this.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 05:00:07PM -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote:
> On 22.06.2017 19:53, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >>I manage to get a root accout on my phone.  But even root only gets
> >>selective access to parts of the file system.  And hope you're lucky
> >>when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are
> >>allowed to access.  Google seems to have found ways to geld root.
> Don't forget the ARM TrustZone and Baseband supervisor processors that you
> as an end-user don't really have access to

It may not even take that much.  When I, as a user,  mount an sshfs on 
my laptop, root cannot read the remote file system.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 22.06.2017 19:53, Hendrik Boom wrote:

I manage to get a root accout on my phone.  But even root only gets
selective access to parts of the file system.  And hope you're lucky
when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are
allowed to access.  Google seems to have found ways to geld root.
Don't forget the ARM TrustZone and Baseband supervisor processors that 
you as an end-user don't really have access to

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