Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On 07/01/17 21:21, Simon Hobson wrote: In general - none ! So, why not just patching the crap out and filing an upstream bug (incl. notifying the folks here, so we can keep an eye on it) ? --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:36:40 -0500 Nate Bargmannwrote: > > > fate accompli > > "Fate" > > is very apposite in the circumstance > One misspell and a person's reputation is shot forever! > :-) And me thinking it was purposefully done ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations ? -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
* On 2017 01 Jul 11:47 -0500, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: > On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500 > Nate Bargmannwrote: > > > fate accompli > > "Fate" > is very apposite in the circumstance One misspell and a person's reputation is shot forever! :-) - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
Le 01/07/2017 à 18:46, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI a écrit : On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500 Nate Bargmannwrote: fate accompli "Fate" is very apposite in the circumstance Cheers, Ron. "Fait accompli" means "accomplished fact", something it's a nonsense to oppose to, because it's done. Period. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"wrote: > At that point I'm curious which fancy features of systemd are needed > by applications at all ? In general - none ! But, it seems that the technique being used by it's proponents is to substitute their stuff and "force" new APIs on developers. Ie, pick a target (whether that's DNS, NTP, Syslog, ...), roll their own substitute, include that substitute by default. So while applications might not actually need any feature in SystemD - over time the devs will find it harder and harder to not use the new systemd APIs (which will certainly be the case as distros switch more and more to default to systemd, and start dropping the traditional tools as "too much work"). Once the dev is using the new APIs, it then makes it harder for users to continue using the older (and more reliable ?) tools that we already know and that have stood the test of time. At some point, I can see some devs start to ask along the lines of "why continue supporting two APIs ?" and stop maintaining the code to use one of them - if the majority of distros are using systemd then we know which one will get dropped. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
Quoting Nate Bargmann (n...@n0nb.us): > I'll admit, there was one trick that SD did that I liked, and that was > starting CUPS only when there was a call to print. I don't print often > so bringing up CUPS on demand and then shutting it down later was nice. > But then, SD was running all the time, so not much was gained. CUPS is almost the only game in town, but there was a project I long admired a great deal, that ran a very lightweight print subsystem with no queuing, called PDQ (print, don't queue). It's been unmaintained for quite a few years, but is probably still practical. Because it has an interface to Foomatic, it supports all printers that work under CUPS or LPRng. (It still runs a daemon process but it's a small, simple one.) http://pdq.sourceforge.net/introduction.html https://sourceforge.net/p/pdq/news/2006/06/resurrect-pdq/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:25:20 -0500 Nate Bargmannwrote: > fate accompli "Fate" is very apposite in the circumstance Cheers, Ron. -- It is a typically Hohenzollern idea to believe that it is a crime for a country to defend itself after its army has been destroyed. -- Karl Marx -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
* On 2017 01 Jul 08:49 -0500, vmlinux wrote: > It makes more sense when you consider that systemd is a thinly veiled > excuse for an init daemon which really wants to replace every distro > out there with something red hat has more control over. Certainly, that trend has been well established. What is troubling are all of the other distributions who treat it as fate accompli. My hope is that Devuan, Slackware, and other distributions that have staked out a position that seeks to maintain the traditional stack will maintain enough traction so that application writers won't adopt only SD APIs at the expense of anything else. I'll admit, there was one trick that SD did that I liked, and that was starting CUPS only when there was a call to print. I don't print often so bringing up CUPS on demand and then shutting it down later was nice. But then, SD was running all the time, so not much was gained. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
It makes more sense when you consider that systemd is a thinly veiled excuse for an init daemon which really wants to replace every distro out there with something red hat has more control over. On July 1, 2017 8:25:56 AM CDT, vmlinuxwrote: :: :: ::On June 30, 2017 1:14:24 AM CDT, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside ::an init > system? The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there.. -- Sent from a Mobile device. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On June 30, 2017 1:14:24 AM CDT, Nate Bargmannwrote: ::* On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: :: ::> Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an ::init ::> system? :: ::The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there... :: ::- Nate :: ::-- :: ::"The optimist p -- Sent from a Mobile device. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On 30/06/17 08:56, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > It's driven by Red Hat to make money out of supporting their > development. > Hammer -> Nail signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:07:46 +0200 Jaromilwrote: > If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float > by. > - Sun Tzu I'm afraid he never wrote that: See for instance https://shibumimanagementcanada.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/invented-sun-tzu-art-of-war-quotes/ Cheers, Ron. -- An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. -- Will Rogers -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On Fri, 30 Jun 2017, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmannwrote: > > * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > >> Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init > >> system? > > > > The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there... > > > > - Nate > > > > And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all > these daemons. If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by. - Sun Tzu Besides the riddance, what I'm really worried by is that these lads are not waiting to demonstrate their qualities, but selling them already to an industry which often runs mission-critical services - namely Red-Hat does provide the infrastructure for several public sector operations, also here in Europe. Last not least, its clear to some of us since years now that these lads want to restrict ABI access and build a full vertical stack that puts a machine completely under systemd's control from its boot - a sort of revamp of the "trusted computing" weird techno-fascist dream Before you think I'm crazy in writing what I wrote, please have a look at the US patent 20150040216-A1 "Systems and Methods for Restricting Application Binary Interfaces" filed by Paul Moore, Dan Walsh and Lennart Poettering on behalf of Red Hat inc. So to conclude I'm afraid that the bodies floating by in this war will be many more than those of our "enemies". ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
Am Freitag, 30. Juni 2017 schrieb Aldemir Akpinar: > On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmannwrote: > > * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > >> Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init > >> system? > > > > The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there... > > > > - Nate > > > > And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all > these daemons. This is a remote administration feature, not a bug :-) -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
Am 2017-06-30 07:53, schrieb Alessandro Selli: Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init system? systemd is _NOT_ an init system. That's a mythos. Systemd started as an init system, but evolved step-by-step to a monolithic low level Linux userland. It's driven by Red Hat to make money out of supporting their development. Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
On 30 June 2017 at 09:14, Nate Bargmannwrote: > * On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init >> system? > > The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there... > > - Nate > And these lads still think that they can do a better job rewriting all these daemons. -- aldemir ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd: good riddance!
* On 2017 30 Jun 00:55 -0500, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Maybe it's me, but what the hell is a DNS resolver doing inside an init > system? The same thing that a time sync (NTP) daemon is doing in there... - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng