Re: [libreoffice-documentation] DOC Meeting Minutes 2018-11-21

2018-11-22 Thread Olivier Hallot
Hi Dave

Sincere apologies. My bad. You were obviously present.

Kind regards

Olivier


Em 22/11/2018 19:09, Dave Barton escreveu:
> On 22.11.2018 18:55, Olivier Hallot wrote:
>> Wednesday November 21th2018, at 19:30 Berlin Time
>>
>> Presents: Drew, Cathy, Heiko, Olivier, Sophia Schröder(not in the call)
> Oops! Did I become invisible? :))
>
> Dave
>
>
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Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Updated proposal to support minor updates of published guides, more detail on I10N support added

2018-11-22 Thread jonathon


On 11/22/18 5:12 PM, Drew Jensen wrote:

> There is a public read only link for that here
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/Ks7n7XroE55tKTg


Under _Major Publication_, there is the sentence/paragraph:

Changes to a Guide chapter structure (adding appendix for example) would
be be expected and should be limited to a major publication cycle.

It should read:

Changes to a Guide chapter structure (adding appendix for example) would
be expected and should be limited to a major publication cycle.

###
Quoting the document:

_I have some open questions regarding the last point about the ISBN and
if there might be some legal requirement of a clearly distinct name from
the registered printed book, even if true it is just something to
account for in the work flow._

a) I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice;
b) I have no clue as to what European law regarding ISBNs is;
c) The law might have changed since I looked into this issue;
d) I'm writing from a US/Canadian perspective;

AFAIK, there is no legal requirement for any book to contain an ISBN.

Bowker wants you to use an ISBN for every possible variant of the book.
If one copy has a green cover, and one has a red cover, Bowker wants you
to use two ISBNs, even if they are otherwise identical. If you have one
variant printed by Ingram Express, and one variant printed by
CreateSpace, Bowker wants you to use two ISBNs, even if they are
otherwise identical.

Booksellers use ISBNs for ordering books.
* As such, each different type of copy needs a different ISBN.  The PDF,
Leatherbound edition, cloth bound edition, trade paperback, Braille, and
mass market paperback all need different ISBNs.You don't want the person
who wants a Braille copy, to end up with the Leatherbound edition.
Likewise, you don't want the person who ordered the PDF, to end up with
the Braille Edition;
* If somebody wants the hardcopy for LibO 5.0, you don't want them to
recieve the hardcopy for LibO 6.0. So those two versions need to have
different ISBNs,

The big question independent publishers have, is how much change can be
made, without confusing customers.

Competely different title, same ISBN, same content, will make librarians
unhappy.
Slightly different title, same ISBN, content has undergone additional
spell checking and proofread, won't make librarians too unhappy.

In as much booksellers can find that milk and cookies book, the title
change won't phase humans. Computers, OTOH, are going to remain utterly
clueless about about what "the milk and cookies book" is.(^8)

In the case of minor updates, is the title changing from, for example,
_LibO 6.0_ to _LibO 6.0.1_, or from _LibO 6.0_ to _LibO 6.1_?
More important, is how much the content between _LibO 6.0_ and _LibO
6.1_ has changed?



As far as eBooks go, Bowker thinks that the mpobi, PDF, lit, epub, azw,
etc. all need a different ISBN. (Bowker makes money from selling ISBNs,
so their reasoning for that suggestion is pretty obvious.)

As a practical matter, none of the major eBook vendors use ISBNs.
Indeed, the overwhelming majority of eBooks sold do not have ISBNs,
which is part of the reason why trying to determine the size of the
eBook market is so difficult.
Independent publishers go:
* We sold x copies on Amazon;
* We sold y copies on Apple;
* We sold z copies on Google;
* We sold w copies on that Japanese bookstore;
* We sold v copies through SmashWords;
Each of those organizations does its own thing to the material that was
uploaded to them.

If you're sending the minor editions to CreateSpace or Ingram Select, to
be distributed in hard copy format, then a new ISBN is advisable, simply
because customers will want the specific edition.(^9)

If you're sending the minor editions to CreateSpace, or Smashwords, for
distribution as an eBook, then the ISBN can be dispensed with, becuase
neither of those distributors use ISBNs for eBooks.

###

^8: I had way too many customers who came in looking for _Everything I
Need To Know I Learned in Kindergarten_, with their only description
being "the milk and cookies book".

^9: Are books still being printed and distributed by Lulu? Even Amazon
has started to shun Lulu. Brick and mortar stores started doing that
more than a decade ago. CreateSpace for Amazon, and Ingram Select for
brick and mortar stores.


jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] DOC Meeting Minutes 2018-11-21

2018-11-22 Thread jonathon
On 11/22/18 6:55 PM, Olivier Hallot wrote:
>  + Long editing session turns LO slow and unusable (Cathy)
>  + Some crashes. 
> AI: Send offending file to olivier for inspection  (Cathy)

I've seen the same thing happen on some of my documents.
In one case, LibO was using 15GB of Virtual RAM and 5GB of Memory RAM.
In a different case, Virtual RAM hit the 25GB point, before the system
crashed.

I assumed it was because I'm using a "don't use unless you are
developer" version.
However:
* OOo 1.1.x used to crash when there were more than 2^16 (I think) style
changes within the document;
* I've got several multi-page tables in these documents. In one
document, there was a table that was 150+ A4 pages long.

Would like copies of these documents? FWIW, the content is codes for
languages, writing systems, countries, and political subdivisions of the
world.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] What baffles users? What help do they need?

2018-11-22 Thread jonathon
On 11/16/18 4:43 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

> So, how do we know how to be most helpful for users?

Basically, we don't.

Bugzilla tells us about what users expect to be able to do, but are
unable to do.

Surveys give us what users think that the documentation should cover (^6).

Analysing AskBot/web forum data tells what users want to do right now.

Analyzing Amazon book sales data tells what information people are
willing to pay for.
Analyzing TPB/Kat etc. data simply tells us what information people are
looking for, not necessarilly what they are willing to pay for.

None of that provides us with the information that people don't know
that they don't know.

By way of example, BAILS is implemented within LibO, (ignoring that part
of the functionality was eliminated in either 6.1.2 or 6.1.1). This is
great example of something that would be useful in maintaining
compliance with SOX, GDPR, and related legislation. Yet the absence of
documentation on how to use it, means that nobody asks questions about it.

A second example is the built-in version of LOGO --- LibreLogo. There
are two or three videos in English, and either one or two short papers,
describing a very basic program. There is a long paper in Hungarian,
which I don't read, and both Google Translate and Bing Translate mangled
beyond comprehension.(^1) What is needed here, is a document that
provides both the vocabulary and syntax recognised by LibreLogo.
Ideally, a rewrite of K, except for LibreLogo, rather than C.(^2)

###

I recently read a book on writing Agile Documentation.  The main thrust was:
* Create four or five user personas;
* Write documentation that covers each use-case for each of those personas;

Each persona has a different set of use-cases. By way of example:
* Molly, the receptionist, whose primary purpose is to look pretty.(^3)
 Figure out what she uses the product for, and write instructions just
for those tasks;
* Charlie, the programmer. Figure out what he uses the product for, and
writing instructions just for those tasks;
* Jake, the accountant. Figure out what he uses the product for, and
write instructions just for those tasks;

If having trouble figuring out what the individual would use the product
for, shadow them for a day or two, writing down when, and what they use
the product, or its functional equivalent, for.

As an example of use-case specific documentation, look at Thomas Quirk's
books on using Excel:
* Excel 2016 for Bilogical and Life Science Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Business Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Educational and Psychological Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Engineering Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Environmental Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Human Resource Management Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Marketing Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Physical Science Statistics;
* Excel 2016 for Social Science Statistics;

The major difference between the books, is the scenarios used in
describing when, and how to use the specific Excel function.

###

Between built-in functions, included extensions, and third party
extensions, Calc has almost 2,500 functions.
I recently stumbled across a book _1,000 Built-in Functions of Excel_
It lists a function, the expected parameters of the function, and how
the function is used.

It seems to me that this is the type of documentation that would be
relatively easy for somebody who the time to write, and be very useful
to end-users seeking to close the "knowledge that we do not know that we
do not know" gap.  Distribute it as a book, not a set of pages on the
wiki. If they are currently described on the wiki, then transcribe to a
book format. If not on the wiki, then add each function to the wiki, as
it is being written for the book.(^5)

###

In updating _OOo in a Multi-lingual Environment_  for AOo, EO, and LibO.
I'm finding that things that could be done with OOo 1.1.3-ZA can't be
done with LibO 6.1.3. OTOH, some of the things I couldn't do with that
version of OOo, I can do with LibO 6.1.3. I'm documentating those
differences in a separate set of documents.

The bigger challenge I'm facing, is sticking with a 5,000 word limit for
each chapter. (^7)

One chapter is one language that uses one writing system, in one
country. For Turkish in Turkey, that means four chapters, one for each
writing system that has been used in the last 120 years. For Afrikaans
in South Africa, that means two chapters --- one for writing Afrikaans
using the Latin writing system, and one for writing Afrikaans using the
Arabic writing system.(^4)

I keep going back to
* Should I expect the reader to read the previous chapters;
* Assume the only chapter that will be looked at, is the chapter on the
country/language/writing system in question;

I'm writing for a niche audience, that probably will read the book,
before shunting it aside as a reference guide.  (Let's face it, how many
people can read English written in the Desseret Writing System today?
How many people even knew that Afrikaans was written 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] DOC Meeting Minutes 2018-11-21

2018-11-22 Thread Cathy Crumbley

I thought Heiko spoke with a lovely British accent.:)

On 11/22/2018 4:09 PM, Dave Barton wrote:

On 22.11.2018 18:55, Olivier Hallot wrote:

Wednesday November 21th2018, at 19:30 Berlin Time

Presents: Drew, Cathy, Heiko, Olivier, Sophia Schröder(not in the call)

Oops! Did I become invisible? :))

Dave




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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] DOC Meeting Minutes 2018-11-21

2018-11-22 Thread Dave Barton
On 22.11.2018 18:55, Olivier Hallot wrote:
> Wednesday November 21th2018, at 19:30 Berlin Time
>
> Presents: Drew, Cathy, Heiko, Olivier, Sophia Schröder(not in the call)

Oops! Did I become invisible? :))

Dave


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] need simple graphic design suggestions

2018-11-22 Thread Drew Jensen
Right, so here some bad examples probably.
For one thing the shots are using Linux ;)

Anyway, these are intended as infographic as opposed to placed on a page in
a Guide, though I did use 300 dpi images.

Both jpeg files below are from LO Writer first one and Draw the second.

Here a graphic (the blue arrow) and a text box used to annotate each of the
screen shots, from outside the image or group of images.
Changing Face Of LibreOffice Calc
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/9DZt4tZMMQ3HFNt

In this one annotation is overlaid on the screen shot image.
Tabbed Notebook Bar Menus
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/taZ8pniaJPRG58f

Anyway, think of this as an ice breaker for the conversation.


On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 3:58 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Those of us working on the next Calc user guide would like to establish
> uniform guidelines for annotating graphics, mostly screenshots. We plan
> to use Draw to produce arrows/lines with explanatory text.
>
> Of course, we want the annotations to be clear and attractive as well as
> optimized for the visually impaired.
>
> We are looking for ideas about specific colors and styles of arrows,
> text, text background, and borders.
>
> Recommendations and examples of best practices would be helpful.
>
> Cathy
>
>
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[libreoffice-documentation] DOC Meeting Minutes 2018-11-21

2018-11-22 Thread Olivier Hallot
Wednesday November 21th2018, at 19:30 Berlin Time

Presents: Drew, Cathy, Heiko, Olivier, Sophia Schröder(not in the call)

Fall back chat:
https://irc.documentfoundation.org/?settings=#libreoffice-doc

TDF Jitsi room
https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/tdfdocteam

Completed Action Items:
    + Raise the issue in the mailing list (Cathy)
  + Awaiting more responses.

Pending:
    + Update template for Calc Guide (Drew/Dave)
    + Proposal for the future LibreOffice documentation development
workflow (Dave)

AI: Emails developers to get more clarifications (Drew)

 + Enter images in document (Cathy)
AI: Clarify the image anchoring (olivier)
 
 + Long editing session turns LO slow and unusable (Cathy)
 + Some crashes. 
AI: Send offending file to olivier for inspection  (Cathy)


Agenda+ Discussion: 
    Minor and Major guide publishing proposal 
    https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/f/83056
AI: Read the file and comment (all)

    FYI - I spent some quality time with the toolbar this week thanks to
the QA bug hunting session. My thougts on a simple mapping of the
buttons as sufficient is diminished. 
+ Some icons are missing in Colibre icon set. (drew)
 + Notebook bar is OK (drew)

  *  + But some NB are confusing (drew)

  *  + NB does not support toolbars of extensions (drew)

 
 Working on chapter 2 (Calc Guide) (Dave)
    + double check the changes picked (Dave)
    + Keep the style name and update the style contents (dave)
   + too much work if we have to change the style name (no gain)
(dave)
    + get Chap2 finished and everybody look what was done.
   + cant we use finished chap2 w/o its content as template ?
(olivier)
   + yes, that is the idea (dave)
AI: Write a script to address the changes in Style (drew)

    Screen captures
    + AI: Write a guide for screen shooting (Cathy)

  *     + Specially with overlays arrows and other marking (Cathy)

    + Address accessibility (Cathy)

  *     + ask UX guys for support (drew)

  *     + Short cuts

  *     + inconsistencies found (Cathy)

  *     + sometimes due to underlying system (olivier)

  *     + Nice to mention shortcuts in every place it exist (Cathy)

  *


AI: Write a section for suporting the translation team + mailing list (drew)
 
Next meeting WednesdayNovember28st2018, at 19:30 Berlin Time

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] What baffles users? What help do they need?

2018-11-22 Thread Drew Jensen
Howdy,

inline comments

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:43 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>  

> So, how do we know how to be most helpful for users? We discussed this
> briefly in the documentation call yesterday and I agreed to raise the
> issue here.
>
> In my mind, documentation includes the user guides and help files but
> could also include additional FAQs, tips, and tutorials. (Researching
> and writing the latter might be good tasks/tests for new volunteers.)
>
> 

*Passive User Feedback*
>
> What mechanisms are there for users to give us comments and suggestions?
>

So there support in the TDF infrastructure for tracking documentation
deficiencies in the Bugzilla system used to track software defects and
enhancement requests.
There is a wiki page with a couple of predefined searches against the
database of issues, found at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Components/Documentation/Help


Best wishes,

Drew

Checking the search for open issues against 'Spreadsheet' it finds 30
currently, majority deals with the help system.

The guides invite users to send feedback to this mailing list. What has
> been the result?
>
> What else could be done to encourage users to send their feedback?
>
> *Asking Users Directly*
>
> Have there been focus groups or similar initiatives for understanding
> user needs?
>
> Has the UX team conducted strategies for obtaining user feedback?
>
> I am sure that many participants in this mailing list have already
> discussed ways to get a sense of what users need.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cathy
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] What baffles users? What help do they need?

2018-11-22 Thread Cathy Crumbley

Hi Drew,

This is useful information that is especially relevant for me since I am 
working on the Chart chapter.  I  will certainly scan the questions, 
keeping in mind that people sometimes ask questions without first 
checking the documentation.


Cathy

On 11/22/2018 10:19 AM, Drew Jensen wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:43 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:


Hi All,


Howdy Cathy,

Just a quick comment on mining the ask bot site - added in line.



While merrily editing chapters in the Calc user guide, I have been
wondering about what users have the most problems with. Surely we would
provide an important service by addressing those problems in our
documentation.

Of  course, there are many types of users with various levels of
knowledge and diverse needs. But there may  be some fairly easy steps we
could take to more effectively meet their needs.

So, how do we know how to be most helpful for users? We discussed this
briefly in the documentation call yesterday and I agreed to raise the
issue here.

In my mind, documentation includes the user guides and help files but
could also include additional FAQs, tips, and tutorials. (Researching
and writing the latter might be good tasks/tests for new volunteers.)

Here are some initial thoughts about understanding user needs:

*Ask LibreOffice Forum *

Several developers and power users have devoted significant time to
answering questions on the forum. Have frequent contributors been asked
for their opinions about the top problems they see users needing help with?

Is it possible to data mine the forum to glean information about the
types of questions being asked?



  From a user of the web service perspective there are some easily answered
questions, although a gross answer at best:

So, for example, since the site uses tagging for questions that can be used
to get gross groupings.
Here is the results asking for number of questions with the Module name as
a tag:
11,558 questions Writer
8,792 questions Calc
2,796 questions Base
1,661 questions Impress
1,006 questions Draw

Then I could add an additional tag and get the number of questions tagged
with Calc fand Charts
188 questions Calc + Charts

That is still 188 questions to be scanned over, that might very well be
worth the time for the person wanting to work on the Chart chapter.

Anyone with access to the database with drives the service could get more
creative about searches.


But even with


*LibreOffice Implementation Consultants*

What can we learn from Collabora, Red Hat, CIB, and others about their
experience in training clients and dealing with user questions?

*Passive User Feedback*

What mechanisms are there for users to give us comments and suggestions?
The guides invite users to send feedback to this mailing list. What has
been the result?

What else could be done to encourage users to send their feedback?

*Asking Users Directly*

Have there been focus groups or similar initiatives for understanding
user needs?

Has the UX team conducted strategies for obtaining user feedback?

I am sure that many participants in this mailing list have already
discussed ways to get a sense of what users need.

Thoughts?

Cathy


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[libreoffice-documentation] Updated proposal to support minor updates of published guides, more detail on I10N support added

2018-11-22 Thread Drew Jensen
Hi,

To follow up on an action item from yesterday, added a couple of lines to
proposal specific to what should be bundled to aid any I10N translation
effort interested in do so.

For the team members, and easily given to others with accounts on the
service, you have full access to the file, 'Guide versioning proposal.odt'
in the English folder of the Doc Team workbook, feel free to comments in
the document.

There is a public read only link for that here
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/Ks7n7XroE55tKTg
Please direct comments in reply to this email on the list. Any comments
added to document should be visible through this link as they are made, but
I will post back to this thread with any major changes to the proposal
also.

Best wishes,

Drew

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] What baffles users? What help do they need?

2018-11-22 Thread Ilmari Lauhakangas

Cathy Crumbley kirjoitti 16.11.2018 klo 6.43:

*Asking Users Directly*

Have there been focus groups or similar initiatives for understanding 
user needs?


Has the UX team conducted strategies for obtaining user feedback?


There have been surveys: 
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/category/survey/


Such surveys are, of course, best-effort and the results cannot be seen 
as a proper representation of our user base.


TDF ran a tender for user metrics, but apparently got no quotes for it: 
https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2015/12/16/tender-to-develop-and-incorporate-usability-metrics-collection-for-libreoffice-201512-02/


Ilmari

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] What baffles users? What help do they need?

2018-11-22 Thread Drew Jensen
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:43 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> Hi All,
>

Howdy Cathy,

Just a quick comment on mining the ask bot site - added in line.


>
> While merrily editing chapters in the Calc user guide, I have been
> wondering about what users have the most problems with. Surely we would
> provide an important service by addressing those problems in our
> documentation.
>
> Of  course, there are many types of users with various levels of
> knowledge and diverse needs. But there may  be some fairly easy steps we
> could take to more effectively meet their needs.
>
> So, how do we know how to be most helpful for users? We discussed this
> briefly in the documentation call yesterday and I agreed to raise the
> issue here.
>
> In my mind, documentation includes the user guides and help files but
> could also include additional FAQs, tips, and tutorials. (Researching
> and writing the latter might be good tasks/tests for new volunteers.)
>
> Here are some initial thoughts about understanding user needs:
>
> *Ask LibreOffice Forum *
>
> Several developers and power users have devoted significant time to
> answering questions on the forum. Have frequent contributors been asked
> for their opinions about the top problems they see users needing help with?
>
> Is it possible to data mine the forum to glean information about the
> types of questions being asked?
>
>
 From a user of the web service perspective there are some easily answered
questions, although a gross answer at best:

So, for example, since the site uses tagging for questions that can be used
to get gross groupings.
Here is the results asking for number of questions with the Module name as
a tag:
11,558 questions Writer
8,792 questions Calc
2,796 questions Base
1,661 questions Impress
1,006 questions Draw

Then I could add an additional tag and get the number of questions tagged
with Calc fand Charts
   188 questions Calc + Charts

That is still 188 questions to be scanned over, that might very well be
worth the time for the person wanting to work on the Chart chapter.

Anyone with access to the database with drives the service could get more
creative about searches.


But even with

> *LibreOffice Implementation Consultants*
>
> What can we learn from Collabora, Red Hat, CIB, and others about their
> experience in training clients and dealing with user questions?
>
> *Passive User Feedback*
>
> What mechanisms are there for users to give us comments and suggestions?
> The guides invite users to send feedback to this mailing list. What has
> been the result?
>
> What else could be done to encourage users to send their feedback?
>
> *Asking Users Directly*
>
> Have there been focus groups or similar initiatives for understanding
> user needs?
>
> Has the UX team conducted strategies for obtaining user feedback?
>
> I am sure that many participants in this mailing list have already
> discussed ways to get a sense of what users need.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cathy
>
>
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