Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

[toki]

On 30/03/2016 00:03, Tom Davies wrote:

> Apparently the quality of all the translations is currently FAR
> higher than the quality of the English original!  This appears to be due to
> the long-term lack of resources invested in the English "built-in help".

More precisely, it is the result of a deliberate policy to _not_ have a
formal team to translate the strings into English.

As such, whenever somebody decides to clean up the English translation,
were the translators paid normal translation rates, it would cost
roughly US$1,000 per string, per location, regardless of any change in
the target language.

What should happen is:
Source document: Whatever variant of English/Pidgin the devs, etc. write in.

Target Document:
* French;
* German;
* Spanish;
* English;
etc;

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Contribution

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Please can someone register Bilal at ODFauthors?

@ Bilal.  There are many different things you could work on within the
Documentation Team.  It's also possible that you might want to translate
from/to English.  Typically people want to start with proof-reading the
Published Guides and occasionally (but very rarely) the Faq wiki but there
are other wikis and also the "in-built help"

The ODFauthors website is the tool for working on the Published Guides, in
English, as found here;
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications

The guide in most urgent need of proof-reading is the "Base Handbook".
Most people avoid it because they don't know how to use Base and it scares
them.  However proof-reading shouldn't really need any understanding of the
subject-matter.  It probably helps but if there is any sentence or anything
that doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't already know the subject
then the guide is not doing the job that it is being made for = so it's a
good idea to post the sentence/chunk to this mailing list to see if anyone
here can make it easier to understand.  There are quite a few experts on
Base on the User Support mailing list who might also be able to help make
sense of it.

However the choice of what you first work on is entirely up to you.  It
does kinda make sense to work on something you are comfortable with at
first so that you can figure out how to use the systems before using them
on something trickier later.  The choice is yours :))

Regards from
Tom :)




On 29 March 2016 at 13:09, Olivier Hallot 
wrote:

> Hello Bilal
>
> Welcome.
>
> In what area of the documentation would you like to contribute? There
> are plenty of areas where help is needed.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Olivier
>
> Em 28/03/2016 12:37, Bilal El-Ghazoini escreveu:
> > Hi, I am a new contributor. As a libre office user I would like to
> contribute as part of a project I am doing. Any help you can give will be
> appreciated.
> >
> > Many thanks Bilal.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
>
> --
> Olivier Hallot
> Comunidade LibreOffice
> http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br
>
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Sorry!!  I feel really bad about all that! :(

Yes.  Go ahead.  :)

I did ask the international translators mailing list and there were some
suggestions and discussion but there didn't seem to be any conclusion.

So the international translators have been told there might be many
re-wordings, for a large number of strings, that will significantly improve
the English without affecting the clearly intended meanings of the
strings.  Apparently the quality of all the translations is currently FAR
higher than the quality of the English original!  This appears to be due to
the long-term lack of resources invested in the English "built-in help".
As i understand it the tiny team of people who do work on it are not normal
native-English speakers and their other commitments within the LibreOffice
project all combine to make it remarkable that the quality is as high as it
is.  That quality has made it relatively easy to translate, apparently, but
feedback from normal (is not devs!) English (US, Uk and the rest) people
has largely been that they find it difficult or even impossible to
understand.

Peter, your original suggestion of doing high-quality changes on a string
by string basis would probably be the best way to proceed.  Steve's
suggestion of using search to get the whole lot done up to a medium
quality all in one go very quickly, and then going back individual strings
to bring them all up to your higher-quality later is probably best
abandoned even though that was the suggestion i was pushing for.


Many, many thanks for taking my advice to heart and holding off for so
long, and for still being willing to do the improvements!!  :))

Also, many apologies for my failure to respond any sooner! :(

Regards, thanks and good luck from
Tom :)



On 29 March 2016 at 09:39, Peter Toye  wrote:

> Tom,
>
> It's now nearly April. You asked me to hold off doing any work on the help
> files in December. Don't you think it's time you updated your request?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Peter
> mailto:l...@ptoye.com 
> www.ptoye.com
>
> -
> Wednesday, December 16, 2015, 7:15:44 PM, you wrote:
>
> > Hi :)
> > Again i am asking for advice and suggestions.  I don't know the best
> > way to handle this or even if there is a real problem here or not.
>
>
> > It is about the Help Files.  The Documentation Team may be able to
> > make some much-needed changes to the help-files.  However, it is to
> > solve a problem that only exists in English.  For all other languages
> > it is, beyond doubt, already corrected purely through the translation
> > process.
>
> > Is there a system or tool that allows such sweeping changes without
> > marking completed translations as incomplete?
>
> > I think there was some discussion about developing such a tool but i
> > imagine it would be extremely difficult to make something like that.
> > So i would be surprised if there is anything yet.
>
>
> > The problem is that the help files often say "allows to", which is bad
> > grammar (at best) and may even be nonsensical or misleading in
> > English.  Even in English (US).  Bad grammar is often fine in emails
> > because we can usually be a bit forgiving and figure out what is
> > likely to be meant.
>
>
> > The 2 currently proposed ways of correcting this are;
>
> > 1.  A "broad brush strokes" sweeping change to "search and replace" to
> > replace it with something like "allows you to", which is not a perfect
> > fit for all circumstances but is mostly "good enough".  It's not
> > always clear who "you" refers to but mostly it's fairly clear or the
> > ambiguity is tolerable.  There are a few cases where the sweeping
> > change is just as confusing or nonsensical but it hides the problem in
> > the majority of cases.
>
> > 2.  A careful and detailed re-phrasing of each occurrence
> > individually.  This will take a long time and requires a lot of very
> > intensive work.  It's would be very similar to doing a lot of
> > translations - from geeky-English to English.
>
> > 3.  A hybrid of the first two.  Option 1 and then followed by option
> > 2.  This gives us a "quick fix" improvement to start with and then the
> > detailed corrections later.
>
>
> > You may have better ideas.  This may be similar to a problem you have
> > had to solve and you may have experience of what works best.  Please
> > let the documentation team know.
>
> > The additional problem is that changing the English version might well
> > have a negative impact on all or most of the translations.  That is
> > the main problem i hope we can solve without too much pain.
>
> > Many regards from
> > Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6 December 2015 at 21:06, Tom Davies  wrote:
> >> Hi :)
> >> I really like Steve Edmonds' suggestion as a quick fix to quickly
> >> solve the immediate issue through tons of the documentation in one
> >> fast process.  Alex Thurgoodes' and Peter Toyes' ideas may be higher
> >> quality in many