Re: [libreoffice-documentation] English videos in help files

[toki]

On 04/26/2018 07:12 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

>>> I'm only sad that we are not part of the discussion when we are highly 
>>> concerned.
>> That probably has as much to do with where and when the discussions are 
>> held, as anything else.
> you miss the point. Changing help (documentation project) and UI (UX project) 
> is not a self-enclosed thing. 

One of the vices of agile development is that documentation is
considered to be, at best, unnecessary. This applies for both developer
documentation, and user documentation.

Whilst the theory is that Agile Development has the following for End
User Documentation Creation:

*  using a topic-oriented approach such as the Darwin Information Typing
Architecture (DITA) or Information MappingTM
*  leveraging user stories to produce task-oriented documentation
*  applying minimalist principles
*  participating as an active team member

the reality is that the usual Agile Development creed on end user
documentation is _They Ain't Gonna Read It So Why Bother Writing It_.

>This is one of the biggest open source projects and changes in code (and UI 
>and documentation) affect not only many community members participating in the 
>project on different tasks, but millions of users.

The other part of the equation, is that there were/are features and
capabilities in LibO that virtually nobody other than the original
developer knows exist. Features that never made their way into any
user-documentation, and only got one line in a developer synopsis.

By way of example, which version of Logo is embedded within LibO?

Only slightly more esoteric is which version of R does LibO have hooks
for? (Who needs VBA when you've got R?)

Now wondering if the Flight Simulator game was removed from LibO.

> So we do need to copy or thoroughly adapt some of the "corporate" workflow 
> magic and make this process a road to success, not to chaos.

Sun practiced waterfall development, in which specifications for
everything were written out in advance.

TDF practices agile development, in which nothing is specified until
after delivery.

The adoption of these models reflect what was considered to be "best
practices" when the organization started developing the program.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each of these models.

>but there must be a workflow where such changes, when already thought through 
>by its native team,

The thinking through, as such, happens during/after construction, not
before construction.

This is why the _only_ way that l10n teams can get a hint of what will
happen, is to have a designated l10n team member, whose sole function is
to sit in on each and every call, and follow both the Bugzilla, and
Commits list, and the use-case and user-story storyboards for each
proposed function, capability, etc.

I realize that that is literally a full time job.

> with l10n teams (who are not just localizers, translators, but in most cases 
> promoters of LO in their countries/languages/cultures and can offer a lot of 
> advice what might not be good for their language/cultural environment/law 
> requirements) - before they get introduced. So we need such a 
> forum/discussion point in development process.

+1

> I often remember the OOo days where every upcoming bigger feature had a 
> webpage (a kind of a wiki page in the Sun web subworld) made by the 
> developers,

That happened for both minor and major features.
It is a side effect of the waterfall model of software development.

If you roam around on the openoffice.org website, you can still find
some/most of those web pages.

>but all this iterative changing (that does lead to better and better results, 
>no doubt about it) in the end hits the l10n teams and makes their members feel 
>like Sisyphus.

Sisyphus was lucky. He knew his fate.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #129001850 (tr/libo_help)

[Sophia Schröder]

WIP, thanks. :-)


Am 26.04.2018 um 15:10 schrieb Sophie:

Hi Necdet,

Thanks for your feedback, I'm adding the documentation project in copy.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 21/04/2018 à 22:39, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :

Username: anonymous user
Current URL:
IP address:
User-Agent:

Unit: 
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/tr/libo_help/translate/shared/optionen.po#unit=129001850

Source: A language module can contain one, two or three submodules: Spellcheck, hyphenation and thesaurus. Each sub-module can be available in 
one or more languages. If you click in front of the name of the module, you activate all the available sub-modules simultaneously. If you 
remove a set mark, you deactivate all the available sub-modules simultaneously. If you wish to activate or deactivate individual sub-modules, 
click theemph Edit button /emphto open the link 
href=text/shared/optionen/01010401.xhp name=Edit ModulesemphEdit 
Modules/emph/link dialog.

Current translation: Bir dil birimi bir, iki ya da üç alt birim içerebilir: Yazım denetimi, heceleme ve eş anlamlılar. Her alt birim bir ya da 
daha fazla dil için kullanılabilir olabilir. Birimin önündeki ada tıklarsanız, tüm kullanılabilir alt birimleri aynı anda etkinleştirirsiniz. 
Eğer bir seçimi kaldırırsanız, tüm kullanılabilir alt birimleri kapatırsınız. Tek bir alt birimi etkinleştirmek ya da kapatmak isterseniz, 
link href=text/shared/optionen/01010401.xhp name=Edit 
ModulesemphBirimleri Düzenle/emph/link iletişim penceresini açmak 
içinemph Düzenle düğmesine/emph tıklayın.

Your question or comment:

emph Edit button /emph should be emph Edit 
/emph button





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Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Sophia Schröder
---
German Language Team
LibreOffice.org
IRC: SophiaS


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #149551504 (da/libo_help)

[Sophia Schröder]

WIP


Am 26.04.2018 um 15:03 schrieb Sophie:

Hi Steen,

Thanks for your feedback, I'm forwarding your mail to the documentation
project, they'll take care of fixing it.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 23/04/2018 à 07:51, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :

Username: anonymous user
Current URL:
IP address:
User-Agent:

Unit: 
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/da/libo_help/translate/shared/01.po#unit=149551504

Source: Select the toolbar where the customization is to be applied. The 
current ser of functions is displayed in the box below.

Current translation:

Your question or comment:

Typo!
ser should changed to set.





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Sophia Schröder
---
German Language Team
LibreOffice.org
IRC: SophiaS


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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #129001850 (tr/libo_help)

[Sophie]

Hi Necdet,

Thanks for your feedback, I'm adding the documentation project in copy.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 21/04/2018 à 22:39, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :
> Username: anonymous user
> Current URL: 
> IP address: 
> User-Agent: 
> 
> Unit: 
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/tr/libo_help/translate/shared/optionen.po#unit=129001850
> 
> Source: A language module can contain one, two or three submodules: 
> Spellcheck, hyphenation and thesaurus. Each sub-module can be available in 
> one or more languages. If you click in front of the name of the module, you 
> activate all the available sub-modules simultaneously. If you remove a set 
> mark, you deactivate all the available sub-modules simultaneously. If you 
> wish to activate or deactivate individual sub-modules, click theemph 
> Edit button /emphto open the link 
> href=text/shared/optionen/01010401.xhp name=Edit 
> ModulesemphEdit Modules/emph/link dialog.
> 
> Current translation: Bir dil birimi bir, iki ya da üç alt birim içerebilir: 
> Yazım denetimi, heceleme ve eş anlamlılar. Her alt birim bir ya da daha fazla 
> dil için kullanılabilir olabilir. Birimin önündeki ada tıklarsanız, tüm 
> kullanılabilir alt birimleri aynı anda etkinleştirirsiniz. Eğer bir seçimi 
> kaldırırsanız, tüm kullanılabilir alt birimleri kapatırsınız. Tek bir alt 
> birimi etkinleştirmek ya da kapatmak isterseniz, link 
> href=text/shared/optionen/01010401.xhp name=Edit 
> ModulesemphBirimleri Düzenle/emph/link 
> iletişim penceresini açmak içinemph Düzenle düğmesine/emph 
> tıklayın.
> 
> Your question or comment:
> 
> emph Edit button /emph should be emph Edit 
> /emph button
> 


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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #149686860 (de/libo_help)

[Sophie]

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your feedback, I agree with you that it's strange to not have
a direct link to AOO wiki instead. I'm adding the documentation project
in copy.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 22/04/2018 à 16:49, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :
> Username: anonymous user
> Current URL: 
> IP address: 
> User-Agent: 
> 
> Unit: 
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/de/libo_help/translate/swriter/guide.po#unit=149686860
> 
> Source: link 
> href=https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/How_Tos/Setting_up_a_Style_for_Numbering_Lines_in_Code_Listings;
>  name=wiki.documentfoundation.org Setting up a Style for Numbering 
> Lines in Code ListingsWiki page about numbering paragraphs by 
> styles/link
> 
> Current translation:
> 
> Your question or comment:
> 
> Hello @ll,
> I see two problems here:
> 
> 1. the linked wiki page contains only a link to AOOs wiki to an HowTo. 
> Why do we not link to that page instead?
> 2. Setting up a Style for Numbering Lines in Code Listings seems 
> wrong after glancing through this HowTo. It describes line numbering in 
> program code. Code Listing is IMHO a listing with all program 
> code at the beginning (in English) or end (in German) of a book which lists 
> all code examples which appear in a book. Or am I wrong here?
> Sorry for the inconvenience
> Thomas.
> 


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Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #149551504 (da/libo_help)

[Sophie]

Hi Steen,

Thanks for your feedback, I'm forwarding your mail to the documentation
project, they'll take care of fixing it.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 23/04/2018 à 07:51, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :
> Username: anonymous user
> Current URL: 
> IP address: 
> User-Agent: 
> 
> Unit: 
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/da/libo_help/translate/shared/01.po#unit=149551504
> 
> Source: Select the toolbar where the customization is to be applied. The 
> current ser of functions is displayed in the box below.
> 
> Current translation:
> 
> Your question or comment:
> 
> Typo!
> ser should changed to set.
> 


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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [The Document Foundation - Pootle server] Unit #149551542 (da/libo_help)

[Sophie]

Hi Steen,
Thanks for your feedback, I'm adding the documentation project in copy
of your mail so they'll be able to take care of it.
Cheers
Sophie
Le 23/04/2018 à 22:07, hostmas...@documentfoundation.org a écrit :
> Username: anonymous user
> Current URL: 
> IP address: 
> User-Agent: 
> 
> Unit: 
> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/da/libo_help/translate/shared/01.po#unit=149551542
> 
> Source: The exporter uses media from the FILENAME (without extension) 
> directory (in the same directory than the document itself) by default. This 
> can be customized here.
> 
> Current translation:
> 
> Your question or comment:
> 
> Please have native English speaker review the phrase the same directory 
> than the document itself. None of my teachers og the English language 
> would let it pass!
> 


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IRC: sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] English videos in help files

[Marina Latini]

It is not appropriate to have lots of amateur legal speculation on this
list.
Please, don't discuss these issues here.

If you have a genuine concern around a legal issue please setup a call
with Simon or Eike who are responsible for legal topics on the board,
please provide only the briefest of rational for such a call.

Thanks.

Marina

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] English videos in help files

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Jonathon,

2018-04-26 1:46 GMT+02:00 toki :

>
>
> >I'm only sad that we are not part of the discussion when we are highly
> concerned.
>
> That probably has as much to do with where and when the discussions are
> held, as anything else.
>
> Oliver is pretty good about providing the agenda, along with the date,
> time, and place of the Documentation Team Meetings. EG: 2018-04-25 19:00
> CET https://meet.jit.si/tdfdocteam agenda at
> https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/documentation


you miss the point. Changing help (documentation project) and UI (UX
project) is not a self-enclosed thing. This is one of the biggest open
source projects and changes in code (and UI and documentation) affect not
only many community members participating in the project on different
tasks, but millions of users. So we do need to copy or thoroughly adapt
some of the "corporate" workflow magic and make this process a road to
success, not to chaos.

Those teams can and should discuss its "structural", "perspective" changes
with the l10n teams. So no, all localizers should not join those two
projects and their jitsi sessions, but there must be a workflow where such
changes, when already thought through by its native team, get discussed
with l10n teams (who are not just localizers, translators, but in most
cases promoters of LO in their countries/languages/cultures and can offer a
lot of advice what might not be good for their language/cultural
environment/law requirements) - before they get introduced. So we need such
a forum/discussion point in development process.

I often remember the OOo days where every upcoming bigger feature had a
webpage (a kind of a wiki page in the Sun web subworld) made by the
developers, where they wrote about what they will be doing, why that is
needed, how they intend to do it and there was also a screenshot of a
mock-up or final UI window etc. This way a feature could be discussed with
others before a lot of hard work was being done and people reading it could
improve ideas and goals and that is why those features did not need so much
polishing later.

This iterative method of trial by error in the LO development is not a
problem in itself, if this project would not need localization and if there
would not be millions of users (i.e. with menus changing all the time in
the last few major releases and documentation hardly following them all) -
but all this iterative changing (that does lead to better and better
results, no doubt about it) in the end hits the l10n teams and makes their
members feel like Sisyphus.

Lp, m.

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