Thanks Rob On Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 5:31 PM Rob Thompson <amessageto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> H36 Master Cylinder > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/cleve_mbrakecyl3.php > > H36 Wheels and Brakes > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/cleve_amphibian.php?recfer=7984 > > regards > Rob > > Rob Thompson > 0429 493 828 > (Please note that my new email address is amessageto...@gmail.com) > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 8:48 AM, Michael Stockhill <sto...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I just checked my H36/HK36 pplservice manual. Page 59 specifies that >> DOT3 or some equivalents are used. They emphatically state that MIL5606 is >> not to be used. I have always attributed this to the belief that the seals >> and O rings in the master cylinder were incompatible with 5606. If the >> master cylinder is a Cleveland part, I wonder if anyone has a Cleveland >> part number. I have always thought of it as a BMW part--like the gas cap. >> >> Other serial number birds may have differing specifications in their >> service manuals. >> >> I have no clue why Hoffman chose DOT3 fluid, but I can't imagine any such >> manufacturer buying Cleveland brakes and then disassembling them to change >> out O rings due to an incompatibility issue. Nor, I wonder if Cleveland >> would make such a change on the assembly line, for certification reasons. >> >> My H36 arrived with automotive brake fluid. I put new tires on and >> rebuilt the brakes, operated without any issues for about fifteen years, >> then rebuilt the brakes a year or so back when I installed new tires. Upon >> disassembly this was purely preventive maintenance because I hate the drill >> of removing the wheels from the fairings. In both instances of disassembly >> I used MS O rings. I saw no softening or significant deterioration after >> years with DOT3. >> >> I live in a fairly dry climate, so absorption of water doesn't seem an >> issue for either the H36 or thousands of autos here. >> >> My sophomoric understanding of hydraulics tells me the issue of water in >> brake fluid is that it changes into a vaporous state at about 100 degrees >> C. As with brake fluid, it is not compressable in fluid state. If the >> brakes get hot--above that temperature and there is moisture in the slave >> cylinders or in adjacent lines, one could have soft brakes or even >> failure. In comparison, corrosion may be the lesser concern. >> >> The fluid in the brake system does not circulate, so I wonder if it >> wouldn't take many months of water absorption before the fluid at the slave >> end of the system had an issue. This may be the case with most autos in the >> states that can go decades without brake fluid replacement. It is a rare >> spot of maintenance here (we have our foibles, including our elections.) >> Once, when I requested brake fluid change, the shop didn't even get the >> reason. >> >> Michael Stockhill >> Polson MT >> >> >> On Jun 24, 2018 3:25 PM, "Rob Thompson" <amessageto...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I just found this useful and comprehensive table of how different rubbers >> are effected by different chemicals >> http://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart-3 >> It says that Nitrile rubber is OK with glycol.... but as the auto brake >> fluid absorbs water over time it must adversely effect the Nitrile O rings >> as Nigel says. With Nigel's experience in hydraulics I would take what he >> says as being the most practically accurate. >> I have always bought genuine Cleveland nitrile rubber 0-rings for the the >> H36 brake system and used the mineral oil that is recommended for them. You >> need to pump a lot through to get the bubbles out so the mineral oil saves >> a fair bit of cash. You can use Automatic Transmission Fluid. >> Sounds like Glycol based fluids may be OK but on the condition that you >> need to change them regularly if you have genuine Cleveland seals. >> And make sure no one gets them mixed up when topping up the system! >> >> Rob >> >> >> regards >> Rob >> >> Rob Thompson >> 0429 493 828 >> (Please note that my new email address is amessageto...@gmail.com) >> >> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 10:05 PM, Nigel Baker <ni...@limbachaustralia.com >> > wrote: >> >>> I think your right on the DOT 5 Konrad. Silicone lubricants are fine on >>> BN seals and Silicone Grease is used to lube BN seals in food processing >>> machinery as it is non toxic so compatible. >>> >>> The H36 mm does say DOT fluid but either some have been changed over at >>> some stage eg by the Thai Airforce and others or depends on when it was >>> built. There is a mix out there that I have seen. >>> >>> >>> >>> *Characteristics of common braking fluids*[6] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#cite_note-DOT-6>[5] >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#cite_note-epic-5> >>> >>> *Dry boiling point <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point>* >>> >>> *Wet boiling point* >>> >>> *Viscosity limit* >>> >>> *Primary constituent* >>> >>> DOT 2 >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DOT_2&action=edit&redlink=1> >>> >>> 190 °C (374 °F) >>> >>> 140 °C (284 °F) >>> >>> ? >>> >>> castor oil/alcohol >>> >>> DOT 3 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_3> >>> >>> 205 °C (401 °F) >>> >>> 140 °C (284 °F) >>> >>> 1500 mm2/s >>> >>> glycol ether <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycol_ethers> >>> >>> DOT 4 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_4> >>> >>> 230 °C (446 °F) >>> >>> 155 °C (311 °F) >>> >>> 1800 mm2/s >>> >>> glycol ether/borate ester >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borate#Borate_esters> >>> >>> LHM+ >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension#LHS_versus_LHM> >>> >>> 249 °C (480 °F) >>> >>> 249 °C (480 °F) >>> >>> 1200 mm2/s [7] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#cite_note-7> >>> >>> mineral oil >>> >>> DOT 5 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5> >>> >>> 260 °C (500 °F) >>> >>> 180 °C (356 °F) >>> >>> 900 mm2/s >>> >>> silicone >>> >>> DOT 5.1 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5.1> >>> >>> 260 °C (500 °F) >>> >>> 180 °C (356 °F) >>> >>> 900 mm2/s >>> >>> glycol ether/borate ester >>> >>> *Wet boiling point defined as 3.7% water by volume.* >>> >>> I have just looked up Matco and yep can use DOT 5 but not 5.1 so same >>> with the other DOT series fluids. Same chemical problem. >>> >>> http://www.matcomfg.com/MASTERCYLINDERCAP10MC4X-idv-3835-5.html >>> >>> Thus Diamond must change the seals or they get them special order. Same >>> problem exists with Cleveland. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers. >>> >>> Nige. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au <dog@lists.riverland.net.au> *On >>> Behalf Of *Konrad FDU >>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2018 8:57 PM >>> *To:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au >>> *Subject:* AW: [DOG mailing list] NO AUTOMOTIVE BRAKE FLUID IN H36 >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello Rob, >>> >>> >>> >>> my MM for the Super Dimona specifies DOT4 as break fluid. So does TOST >>> which also is a Cleveland break. It is not specify DOT 5 that you might >>> refer to and is silicone based (not DOT5.1 which again is glycol based) . >>> >>> I would not call DOT4 or DOT3 water soluble. It is hygroscopic and >>> accepts to accumulate the humidity from the air but water degrades >>> performance and boiling point. This is why break fluid is changed regularly >>> or checked for water. >>> >>> >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Konrad >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *Von:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au [mailto:dog@lists.riverland.net.au >>> <dog@lists.riverland.net.au>] *Im Auftrag von *Rob Thompson >>> *Gesendet:* Sonntag, 24. Juni 2018 11:59 >>> *An:* dog@lists.riverland.net.au >>> *Betreff:* Re: [DOG mailing list] NO AUTOMOTIVE BRAKE FLUID IN H36 >>> >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> So you have been running water soluble auto fluid in Cleveland brakes >>> for 17 years? >>> >>> Interesting. I didn't think the rubber bits would go OK with a >>> water/glycol based fluid. >>> >>> Make sure you label the reservoir very clearly what type you are using. >>> If someone adds the wrong type you will get a horrible mess! >>> >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> Rob Thompson >>> >>> 0429 493 828 >>> >>> (Please note that my new email address is amessageto...@gmail.com) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Michael Stockhill <sto...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I believe the service manual specifies automotive type fluid, likely >>> for the motorcycle type master cylinder. No problem with Cleveland O rings >>> in slaves for last 17 years. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael Stockhill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 23, 2018 3:01 PM, "Rob Thompson" <amessageto...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Just a reminder to everyone and Martin from K1W1 land. >>> >>> The H36 uses hydraulic brake fluid. Auto fluid is water based and will >>> wreck the seals and system. >>> >>> >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> Rob Thompson >>> >>> 0429 493 828 >>> >>> (Please note that my new email address is amessageto...@gmail.com) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >
