Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
I suggest to buy some sort of laptop or netbook and ignore the internal keyboard/display. Perhaps the Dell Mini 12 is good (since fanless) but I don't know how it fits into the other requirements. Kai On 04/25/2009 02:59 AM, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: Hi, after a few months of latop-only computing (my good old P4 1.8Ghz is now - after 7 years - a Windows machine in our household), I plan to switch to a normal computer again. My requirements are the following: o Low power consumption (< 10W; 25W upper limit) o Support for major Free Software operating systems (no strange, custom GNU/Linux distributions), especially GNU/Linux or NetBSD o Fanless and no moving parts o No proprietary drivers, etc. (BIOS and bootloader acceptable) o Standard form-factor or custom case/enclosure (if so, hole for rp-sma connector) o Smallest form-factor that is possible (I don't understand why computers are still the size of a bottle crate) o Standard connectors (USB, VGA/DVI, Ethernet) o VESA mount (if possible) o low budget (< 500€) After I found no RISC processors or SOCs, I looked at x86 CPUs. There three low power architectures: VIA C7 and Nano, AMD Geode and Intel Atom. VIA's technology (especially the C7) seems to be out-dated. VIA offers a mini-itx board with its Nano CPU (VIA VB8001), but it has small fan and its power consumption is slightly above the limit. AMD's Geode is obsolete as well. The Geode LX family has the advantage of low power consumption and small form factor. However, the performance per watt ration is low. Intel's Atom processors are modern and have probably the highest performance per watt ration. However, the smallest affordable form-factor is mini-itx (I talked to several companies that manufacture smaller industrial boards, but the price performance ratio was terrible and buying one of those would be my last option). Similar to the Nano most of the Atom Boards have a power consumption that's a bit above 25W (there are the Z510 and Z530 embedded Atom CPUs, but the come with the GMA 500 graphics chip which has no free drivers). Nvidia's Ion, especially the Acer AspireRevo, seems to be quite promising, but has proprietary drivers. I wanted to ask you (because you very likely use your computers the same way I do) whether you think the Geode is sufficient for the next three years or so, otherwise would buy a cheap Atom mini-itx computer. Usually I use my computer just for programming, typesetting (mainly with groff and heirloom-doctools, but also occasionally with LaTeX), reading and research. I don't need any computing power for simulations, calculations, etc.; I can get access to bigger machines if I really have such special tasks. What bothers me a bit are these multimedia applications (video codecs, etc.) and particularly web applications. I'm really not sure if the Geode would be able to render on of these new JavaScript + HTML = graphics-and-user-interface-API web apps in one and a half years or so. Moreover, I can't imagine the CPU to decode a medium-sized h.264 videos which seem to have become today's quasi-standard. Maybe you know a better alternative. Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
I use a laptop with a 21,6" external motinor, keyboard, mouse, etc. It is like a normal computer but more silent :) and energy efficient. On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:11 PM, markus schnalke wrote: > [2009-04-25 19:47] Matthias-Christian Ott >> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 07:18:45PM +0200, pmarin wrote: >> > >> > Low power computers...Why not a netbook? >> >> Because netbooks and laptops aren't ergonomic. > > Plug external input and output devices to them. ;-) > > > meillo > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFJ81Jk6aFpZ+X9qBIRApECAKCRatA4ndHZos5KxxUpDOBmlpLIOwCgirss > +hlmNnou/DAvaFxm+tPLKYE= > =kCBv > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > >
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
[2009-04-25 19:47] Matthias-Christian Ott > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 07:18:45PM +0200, pmarin wrote: > > > > Low power computers...Why not a netbook? > > Because netbooks and laptops aren't ergonomic. Plug external input and output devices to them. ;-) meillo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 07:18:45PM +0200, pmarin wrote: > Low power computers...Why not a netbook? Because netbooks and laptops aren't ergonomic. > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Charlie Kester wrote: > > On Sat 25 Apr 2009 at 08:45:40 PDT Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > >> > >> After my router (which has a Geode LX 800) had a 1/10 of the Whetstone > >> score > >> of my laptop, I decided to buy a Intel Atom based system, because the PPW > >> ratio is much higher. I currently consider buying a T7-330 Atom Barebone > >> [1]. It's quite cheap and meets most of my requirements, although I'm > >> not really satisfied. > > > > Sweet! What network chip is used on the motherboard of the T7-330? I > > have a Atom-based system that uses the Intel reference motherboard, and > > I had problems getting FreeBSD to work with the network chip. (I ended > > up adding a PCI card, using up the one and only slot.) > > > > The Northbridge on the Intel board also needs a fan, so my system isn't > > silent. (sigh) > > > > >
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
Low power computers...Why not a netbook? On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Charlie Kester wrote: > On Sat 25 Apr 2009 at 08:45:40 PDT Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: >> >> After my router (which has a Geode LX 800) had a 1/10 of the Whetstone >> score >> of my laptop, I decided to buy a Intel Atom based system, because the PPW >> ratio is much higher. I currently consider buying a T7-330 Atom Barebone >> [1]. It's quite cheap and meets most of my requirements, although I'm >> not really satisfied. > > Sweet! What network chip is used on the motherboard of the T7-330? I > have a Atom-based system that uses the Intel reference motherboard, and > I had problems getting FreeBSD to work with the network chip. (I ended > up adding a PCI card, using up the one and only slot.) > > The Northbridge on the Intel board also needs a fan, so my system isn't > silent. (sigh) > >
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Sat 25 Apr 2009 at 08:45:40 PDT Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: After my router (which has a Geode LX 800) had a 1/10 of the Whetstone score of my laptop, I decided to buy a Intel Atom based system, because the PPW ratio is much higher. I currently consider buying a T7-330 Atom Barebone [1]. It's quite cheap and meets most of my requirements, although I'm not really satisfied. Sweet! What network chip is used on the motherboard of the T7-330? I have a Atom-based system that uses the Intel reference motherboard, and I had problems getting FreeBSD to work with the network chip. (I ended up adding a PCI card, using up the one and only slot.) The Northbridge on the Intel board also needs a fan, so my system isn't silent. (sigh)
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 11:50:04AM -0400, voltaic wrote: > I have been looking into this kind of thing myself. What I found is > that getting an Atom nettop computer would be a significant downgrade > in performance (from my Pentium M). Both in performance and > power/Watt. Also, GMA900 on the EEEs is slow enough that rendering > webpages is not very smooth. Imagine what that would be like in 3 > years. Hmm, currently my Pentium 4 M works quite well, but as I said, JavaScript will slow down our computers much more in the future ;). > I looked at two things. First is the Neuros Link, which has a low > power Athlon LE-1660. The form factor is not that small, and it does > have a fan (supposedly quiet), but it does accommodate a full hard > drive, has eSATA, DVI and HDMI. The problem with it is the ATI > graphics chip... Linux support for these is still terrible, despite > the recent releases of documentation. The open source driver is moving > very slowly for the AMD/ATI hardware. ATI graphics cards are a no-go criteria for me, I've enough trouble with the one in my laptop. > Though, Neuros Link is very cheap ($250): > http://www.neurostechnology.com/neuros-link > > Another item is the Dell Studio Hybrid. That thing gets good reviews. > It is a real computer, unlike the Atom stuff. There is a Core 2 Duo > laptop processor in there, which is the best performance/Watt you can > get. Apparently it is very quiet (does have a fan), draws 25W at idle, > and 40W max, and has a GMA X3100 graphics chip. DVI and HDMI (though > only one can be active at a time, so no dual screen). It can be had > for $500. Sadly, it is not small enough to be VESA mountable. Also, no > eSATA, so you are stuck with a single internal drive. > > http://www.dell.com/hybrid Yes, the received a gold rating from EPEAT: http://www.epeat.net/ProductDisplay.aspx?return=search&action=view&search=true&productid=1897&epeatcountryid=1 But today every major Computer manufacturer has that. > Anyway, I think both of these options are imperfect, but maybe someone > will find them useful. I am waiting for the NVIDIA Ion stuff to come > out. NVIDIA has a acceptable Linux drivers I hear. Proprietary drivers are not acceptable for. I ported the Nvidia drivers to the latest -mm tree for a while and that was no fun. X.org updates broke them entirely and you had to wait a week or so to use 3d acceleration again. > -v Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 08:50:01PM -0500, Kurt H Maier wrote: > On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Matthias-Christian Ott > wrote: > > After I found no RISC processors or SOCs, > > Is there a reason you're not looking at ARM stuff? There are several > nifty devices out there -- I'm going to be moving most of my stuff > over to these things: > http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp The BeagleBoard looked also quite promising, but has no Free Software graphics drivers and no mainstream distribution support (like most of the exotic ARM SOCs and boards). The Loongson could be an option too, but it requires as much power as an Intel Atom. It's a pity that Intel dominates the CPU market (especially on Desktops). Moreover, the dev kits and evaluation boards for ARM and MIPS are quite expensive, most CPUs are very slow and they don't provide a decent case for their boards. But I would be really happy if someone could recommend a nice non-x86 system to me. However, modern the R in modern RISC processors isn't appropriate anymore since their instruction sets aren't reduced anymore. This is particularly true for ARM. I would really like to see the first mainstream, low power asynchronous CPU. > The big drawback on these guys is the lack of video; my next desktop > will be an asus eeebox, which are available with ATI 3450 graphics > chips. I know the R500 and newer ones have only emergent support in > the FOSS world; however, ATI has opened up some drivers and is > promising to open them all. I don't know, my Radeon card in my laptop works pretty bad (especially on resume from disk or ram), although HP got a Linux certification from Novell for it. > I've run far and wide in search of open, low-power systems. I thought > I hit pay dirt with the OLPC XO-1, but the wifi requires a binary > blob. I think a handful of plugtop computers, an asus eeebox with > Slackware on it, and my nokia n810 will suffice. > > # Kurt H Maier > Regards, Matthias-Christian
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
I have been looking into this kind of thing myself. What I found is that getting an Atom nettop computer would be a significant downgrade in performance (from my Pentium M). Both in performance and power/Watt. Also, GMA900 on the EEEs is slow enough that rendering webpages is not very smooth. Imagine what that would be like in 3 years. I looked at two things. First is the Neuros Link, which has a low power Athlon LE-1660. The form factor is not that small, and it does have a fan (supposedly quiet), but it does accommodate a full hard drive, has eSATA, DVI and HDMI. The problem with it is the ATI graphics chip... Linux support for these is still terrible, despite the recent releases of documentation. The open source driver is moving very slowly for the AMD/ATI hardware. Though, Neuros Link is very cheap ($250): http://www.neurostechnology.com/neuros-link Another item is the Dell Studio Hybrid. That thing gets good reviews. It is a real computer, unlike the Atom stuff. There is a Core 2 Duo laptop processor in there, which is the best performance/Watt you can get. Apparently it is very quiet (does have a fan), draws 25W at idle, and 40W max, and has a GMA X3100 graphics chip. DVI and HDMI (though only one can be active at a time, so no dual screen). It can be had for $500. Sadly, it is not small enough to be VESA mountable. Also, no eSATA, so you are stuck with a single internal drive. http://www.dell.com/hybrid Anyway, I think both of these options are imperfect, but maybe someone will find them useful. I am waiting for the NVIDIA Ion stuff to come out. NVIDIA has a acceptable Linux drivers I hear. -v On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Martin Oppegaard wrote: > There's a thread on openbsd-misc[1] with a few alternatives. If one only > could get tiny fanless computers with awesome graphics capabilities, for > the Morrowind experience ... > > [1] http://marc.info/?t=12396300885&r=1&w=2 > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 02:59:12AM +0200, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: >> Hi, >> after a few months of latop-only computing (my good old P4 1.8Ghz is now = >> - >> after 7 years - a Windows machine in our household), I plan to switch to = >> a >> normal computer again. >> >> My requirements are the following: >> >> o Low power consumption (< 10W; 25W upper limit) >> o Support for major Free Software operating systems (no strange, custom >> GNU/Linux distributions), especially GNU/Linux or NetBSD >> o Fanless and no moving parts >> o No proprietary drivers, etc. (BIOS and bootloader acceptable) >> o Standard form-factor or custom case/enclosure (if so, hole for rp-sma >> connector) >> o Smallest form-factor that is possible (I don't understand why compute= >> rs >> are still the size of a bottle crate) >> o Standard connectors (USB, VGA/DVI, Ethernet) >> o VESA mount (if possible) >> o low budget (< 500=E2=82=AC) >> >> After I found no RISC processors or SOCs, I looked at x86 CPUs. There thr= >> ee >> low power architectures: VIA C7 and Nano, AMD Geode and Intel Atom. >> >> VIA's technology (especially the C7) seems to be out-dated. VIA offers a >> mini-itx board with its Nano CPU (VIA VB8001), but it has small fan and i= >> ts >> power consumption is slightly above the limit. >> >> AMD's Geode is obsolete as well. The Geode LX family has the advantage of >> low power consumption and small form factor. However, the performance per >> watt ration is low. >> >> Intel's Atom processors are modern and have probably the highest performa= >> nce >> per watt ration. However, the smallest affordable form-factor is mini-itx >> (I talked to several companies that manufacture smaller industrial boards= >> , >> but the price performance ratio was terrible and buying one of those woul= >> d >> be my last option). Similar to the Nano most of the Atom Boards have a po= >> wer >> consumption that's a bit above 25W (there are the Z510 and Z530 embedded >> Atom CPUs, but the come with the GMA 500 graphics chip which has no free >> drivers). Nvidia's Ion, especially the Acer AspireRevo, seems to be quite >> promising, but has proprietary drivers. >> >> I wanted to ask you (because you very likely use your computers the same = >> way >> I do) whether you think the Geode is sufficient for the next three years = >> or >> so, otherwise would buy a cheap Atom mini-itx computer. >> >> Usually I use my computer just for programming, typesetting (mainly >> with groff and heirloom-doctools, but also occasionally with LaTeX), >> reading and research. I don't need any computing power for simulations, >> calculations, etc.; I can get access to bigger machines if I really have >> such special tasks. >> >> What bothers me a bit are these multimedia applications (video codecs, >> etc.) and particularly web applications. I'm really not sure if the >> Geode would be able to render on of these new JavaScript + HTML =3D >> graphics-and-user-interface-API web apps in one and a half years or >> so. Moreover, I can't
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 03:23:39PM +0200, yy wrote: > While I really like Asus products (I'm very happy with my eee), maybe > the msi catalog is also worth a look. Both windbox and windnettop look > like interesting fanless desktop replacements in the same line than > the eeebox. > If you want to have your own server the idea of accompanying one of > these devices with plug computers and/or some cheap NAS looks funny, > but given the current price of VPS I don't think home-servers are well > worth any more. I don't want the computer to be a server. It's supposed to become my main workstation. After my router (which has a Geode LX 800) had a 1/10 of the Whetstone score of my laptop, I decided to buy a Intel Atom based system, because the PPW ratio is much higher. I currently consider buying a T7-330 Atom Barebone [1]. It's quite cheap and meets most of my requirements, although I'm not really satisfied. > PS[OT]: you would not get rich this way, but I would buy such a thing > for a reasonable price: 1. find the right (cheap) plug computers to > run plan9 cpu servers, the right nas device to run venti, and the > right eee/wind/whichever terminal. 2. preconfigure everything and > package it in a cute box. 3. sell it. 4. profit! 5. goto 1 You probably won't make any profit with exotic operating systems ;). Moreover, I don't see the need for a separate file server in system with only one user. > -- > - yiyus || JGL . Regards, Matthias-Christian [1] http://www.tranquilpc-shop.co.uk/acatalog/T7-330_Barebones.html
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
There's a thread on openbsd-misc[1] with a few alternatives. If one only could get tiny fanless computers with awesome graphics capabilities, for the Morrowind experience ... [1] http://marc.info/?t=12396300885&r=1&w=2 On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 02:59:12AM +0200, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > Hi, > after a few months of latop-only computing (my good old P4 1.8Ghz is now = > - > after 7 years - a Windows machine in our household), I plan to switch to = > a > normal computer again. > > My requirements are the following: > > o Low power consumption (< 10W; 25W upper limit) > o Support for major Free Software operating systems (no strange, custom > GNU/Linux distributions), especially GNU/Linux or NetBSD > o Fanless and no moving parts > o No proprietary drivers, etc. (BIOS and bootloader acceptable) > o Standard form-factor or custom case/enclosure (if so, hole for rp-sma > connector) > o Smallest form-factor that is possible (I don't understand why compute= > rs > are still the size of a bottle crate) > o Standard connectors (USB, VGA/DVI, Ethernet) > o VESA mount (if possible) > o low budget (< 500=E2=82=AC) > > After I found no RISC processors or SOCs, I looked at x86 CPUs. There thr= > ee > low power architectures: VIA C7 and Nano, AMD Geode and Intel Atom. > > VIA's technology (especially the C7) seems to be out-dated. VIA offers a > mini-itx board with its Nano CPU (VIA VB8001), but it has small fan and i= > ts > power consumption is slightly above the limit. > > AMD's Geode is obsolete as well. The Geode LX family has the advantage of > low power consumption and small form factor. However, the performance per > watt ration is low. > > Intel's Atom processors are modern and have probably the highest performa= > nce > per watt ration. However, the smallest affordable form-factor is mini-itx > (I talked to several companies that manufacture smaller industrial boards= > , > but the price performance ratio was terrible and buying one of those woul= > d > be my last option). Similar to the Nano most of the Atom Boards have a po= > wer > consumption that's a bit above 25W (there are the Z510 and Z530 embedded > Atom CPUs, but the come with the GMA 500 graphics chip which has no free > drivers). Nvidia's Ion, especially the Acer AspireRevo, seems to be quite > promising, but has proprietary drivers. > > I wanted to ask you (because you very likely use your computers the same = > way > I do) whether you think the Geode is sufficient for the next three years = > or > so, otherwise would buy a cheap Atom mini-itx computer. > > Usually I use my computer just for programming, typesetting (mainly > with groff and heirloom-doctools, but also occasionally with LaTeX), > reading and research. I don't need any computing power for simulations, > calculations, etc.; I can get access to bigger machines if I really have > such special tasks. > > What bothers me a bit are these multimedia applications (video codecs, > etc.) and particularly web applications. I'm really not sure if the > Geode would be able to render on of these new JavaScript + HTML =3D > graphics-and-user-interface-API web apps in one and a half years or > so. Moreover, I can't imagine the CPU to decode a medium-sized h.264 vide= > os > which seem to have become today's quasi-standard. > > Maybe you know a better alternative. > > Regards, > Matthias-Christian >
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
While I really like Asus products (I'm very happy with my eee), maybe the msi catalog is also worth a look. Both windbox and windnettop look like interesting fanless desktop replacements in the same line than the eeebox. If you want to have your own server the idea of accompanying one of these devices with plug computers and/or some cheap NAS looks funny, but given the current price of VPS I don't think home-servers are well worth any more. PS[OT]: you would not get rich this way, but I would buy such a thing for a reasonable price: 1. find the right (cheap) plug computers to run plan9 cpu servers, the right nas device to run venti, and the right eee/wind/whichever terminal. 2. preconfigure everything and package it in a cute box. 3. sell it. 4. profit! 5. goto 1 -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [dwm] Low Power Fanless Computer
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Matthias-Christian Ott wrote: > After I found no RISC processors or SOCs, Is there a reason you're not looking at ARM stuff? There are several nifty devices out there -- I'm going to be moving most of my stuff over to these things: http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp The big drawback on these guys is the lack of video; my next desktop will be an asus eeebox, which are available with ATI 3450 graphics chips. I know the R500 and newer ones have only emergent support in the FOSS world; however, ATI has opened up some drivers and is promising to open them all. I've run far and wide in search of open, low-power systems. I thought I hit pay dirt with the OLPC XO-1, but the wifi requires a binary blob. I think a handful of plugtop computers, an asus eeebox with Slackware on it, and my nokia n810 will suffice. # Kurt H Maier
