Since this gender topic doesn't seem to die down, I feel I have to comment as well.
Without necessarily approving the original comment, I feel there is a huge problem in science regarding a gender bias. Here<http://www.eigenfactor.org/gender/> are some stats on the gender composition of publications in science, based on jstor. While comments of a generalizing nature can come across as insulting or offensive to some, I think that the responses so far have had a little bit too much of a "we can't talk about this" air about them. When less than 20% of first authors are females, I would argue the problem is too big to allow for such sensitivities. I like diversity, and I think being open to it enables the scientific community as a whole to get more talent involved. But what if there are real differences between what kinds of expertise women and men bring to the table? I'm sure the original poster wasn't just making these examples up in order to be sexist. Shouldn't we be willing to talk about these differences in order to see what can be done about them? If we stick to this attitude where everything that's even touching on differences between men and women is discarded as sexist, I don't think we have very good chances of fixing this huge problem. /Paul Wennekes On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. <hanber...@missouri.edu > wrote: > Or is it (sexist)? > > See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports > http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 > > Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More > Welcoming to Women > http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: > ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov > Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues > > Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole > discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. > It's not sexist to say, "In my experience, women tend to do X and would be > better off doing Y". It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. > > Jane Shevtsov > > > On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams > <leslie.ad...@comcast.net>wrote: > > > Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette > > (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female > > scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and > > especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and > > dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology > > and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; > > whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel "moving on" > > when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that > > it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv > > is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias > > has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of > > gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for > > landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. > > > > > > > > > > > > Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. > > > > Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics > > > > Professional Training and Development > > > > University of New Hampshire > > > > <http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/> > > http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ > > > > Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 > > > > > > > > Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability > > > > School of Undergraduate Studies (online) > > > > University of Maryland University College > > > > > > > > Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences > > > > Department of Liberal Arts > > > > New Hampshire Institute of Art > > > > > > > > "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used > > when we created them." - Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news > > [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM > > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student’s Guide to Neces > > sary Skills for Landing a Job > > > > > > > > Hi Yvette, > > > > > > > > Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely > > misguided > > > > and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you > > can > > > > ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which > > have a > > > > track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately > > > > your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very > > > > little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). > > > > Let's all move on now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Julian > > > > --- > > > > Julian D. Olden > > > > Freshwater Ecology & Conservation Lab > > > > School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences > > > > University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 > > > > e: <mailto:ol...@uw.edu> ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 < > > <tel:%28206%29%20616-3112> tel:%28206%29%20616-3112> > > > > w: <http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/> > > http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ > > > > skype: goldenolden > > > > > > > > "The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown > > > > aside, for it had a new story to tell every day." < Mark Twain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, "Yvette Dickinson" < <mailto: > > yvette.dickin...@gmail.com> > > yvette.dickin...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in > > >Clara's > > > > >list: > > > > >"7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many > > >young, > > > > >especially, female, > > > > >applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already > > >know > > > > >or that cannot be readily > > > > >duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented..." > > > > > > > > > >This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find > > > > >abhorrent. I initially chose not > > > > >to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. > > > > > > > > > >However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be > > >told > > > > >to simply use your email > > > > >filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is > > > > >offensive. The concerns Chandreyee > > > > >raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and > > > > >respect they deserve. > > > > > > > > > >I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, > > >particularly > > > > >principle g. > > > > >"Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of > > >their > > > > >work on the basis of gender, > > > > >sexual orientation, marital status, creed, religion, race, color, > > > > >national origin, age, economic status, > > > > >disability, or organizational affiliation." > > > > > > > > > >Yvette Dickinson > > > > > > -- > ------------- > Jane Shevtsov, Ph.D. > Mathematical Biology Curriculum Writer, UCLA co-founder, > www.worldbeyondborders.org > > "Those who say it cannot be done should not interfere with those who are > doing it." --attributed to Robert Heinlein, George Bernard Shaw and others > -- Paul Wennekes
