Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education- student's perspective
A good friend of mine, an older gentleman who has worked as president for an environmental NGO in the northeast for years, put it to me in a particularly striking way. He said, and I am paraphrasing, In terms of education, the reality in America is that a lot of people are going to college who shouldn't. When I asked him to expound on his point, he said, Ideally, especially when I was going to university in the 60's, it was viewed as a way of getting an education and expanding your mind and interests. The fact it could lead to meaningful and satisfying work was an afterthought. The point was education. Today, it feels like many students, and others have said this too, are going for certification. Instead of education being the end, it is the means to something else, such as a job position. It isn't like I am saying that people should not try to educate themselves; what I am saying is that the trend towards mass production of education (which very obviously has led to some real shortcomings in quality) has damaged the overall education of many students, and that some people who are students shouldn't be; standards have dropped for entry to many universities, and it shows. After hearing his thoughts, I thought about all the students I had met as a student whom were there because their parents told them to go and gave them the money to do so. Many of them didn't want to be there; they only knew that college was expected of them and they wouldn't resist being pushed into it, considering how many students these days treat college as an extension of high school. I realize that the opinions expressed here seem harsh and the evidence only anecdotal, but these are my personal observations. In the same breath, my former advising professor told me a story of a student years ago who came into his office angry. He asked the student why he was upset and he said he didn't want to be there. My professor pressed him and asked why, and he said it was because his old man was making him go to college. My professor informed him that he was an adult and didn't have to go to college if he didn't want to. The frustrated young man looked at him, nodded, thanked him, said goodbye, and as my former advisor professor testified, he never saw him again. It appears as if at least some people figure out on their own that college isn't for them, hm? - Derek E. Pursell --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education- student's perspective To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 9:14 PM Honorable Forum on Ecology and Education: This is one of the best threads I've read on Ecolog. There have been so many good points made from such a varied assemblage of participants that what we have here, is a high potential for actually communicating on a very important subject. Because it is important, comment can be touchy, but the quality of the responses has shown that most everybody has straddled the line between frankness and abusiveness pretty well. I, at least, think I've learned a lot. There are some aspects of this issue that have not been discussed, and I will offer some in the hopes I can learn whether or not there is sympathy, hostility, or neutrality out there. In the USA, we have a strong tradition of the concept of a free education. There is also a strong tradition that comes from pioneering, hard work, and an instinctive contempt for elitism and an embracing of the concept of a classless society. There is also a tradition born out of a strong sense of inferiority in the realm of letters. There can be little question that there is some truth and some exaggeration in all of these factors. It seems that higher education in the USA has developed more strongly and increasingly along the lines of specialization and preparation of marketable skills than a truly liberal education. There is an undercurrent that seems to imply that specialists needn't or shouldn't waste their time on irrelevant matters like literature and arts--humanities and other soft subjects. Increasingly, there seems to be more division than integration, as well as a growing trend, ironically, toward hybrid curricula that attempts a middle ground between hard and soft, resulting in an education that is neither fish nor fowl--but which provides a watered-down dose of science and humanities and degrees that satisfy the need for numerical expansion of universities at the expense of the kind of intensive devotion to intellectual development that, for example, was the strong meat upon which Darwin and other Caesars of the intellect doth fed (Latin and other languages, literature, mathematics, etc.). It involved a tradition, not of grinding though or even running the gauntlet, but one in which the goal was a fully integrated and competent and honest individual. This example, was, of
Re: [ECOLOG-L] decline in education, comment on active learning
Hi, I want to briefly respond to David Lawrence's comment from several days ago, about evaluation scores declining when he switched to active learning. This comment probably hit home for anyone who has tried active learning: I watched my evaluation scores decline when I switched to active learning. ...It was also unreasonable for me to expect them to ask questions relevant to the material we discussed in class. I had students complain they didn't learn anything from me For anyone who has ever been in this boat, you are not alone--this is a common phenomenon when introducing active learning methods to a student body that is accustomed to traditional lecture-based methods. Based on my own experiences, and those of various colleagues, I would guess that most instructors got similar comments when they first switched over from lecturing. I am fairly new to active learning myself, but I've talked with colleagues who have been doing it for years, and everyone says that it really does get better (particularly if many faculty in the department all start using it). I think comments like I didn't learn anything stem from problems with metacognition. How do you know when you've learned something? Memorizing 30 vocabulary words is a concrete achievement, you can point and say There, I learned these words. But interpreting data, or designing an experiment, or predicting the outcome of a perturbation to a system are all rather amorphous--there's no one thing to point to and say I've learned this. That can throw students for a loop. Furthermore, the level of energy and preparation required to participate in a learner-centered classroom can push students out of their comfort zones, particularly if they are accustomed to the ease of showing up and taking notes through a lecture. I am not trying to dismiss your student's comments, I'm just pointing out that some negative comments might have more to do with feeling uncomfortable in a new situation than with learning science per se. Happily, none of these issues are insurmountable. The trick is to help students be aware of their own progress, and to bring them on board with the goals of a learner-centered classroom. That is easier said than done, and it might take several years of trying before you land on the best way to accomplish that for your particular student body (but then, most new classes take several years before you're happy with them, right?). Most importantly, none of these issues mean that your students were actually not learning. You know what your students accomplished based on their exams, papers, and class participation. You probably know that they actually learned a lot, far more than they may have realized at the time. If you are convinced that active learning is better for students (and there are good data to support that), then keep on truckin'. And pat yourself on the back--changing the way you teach is a challenge, and your willingness to try says more about you as an instructor than any given crop of evaluations. Finally, if you have any colleagues who are also trying active learning, get together regularly and compare notes. It will help a lot. Best wishes, Sarah _ Sarah K Berke Postdoctoral Researcher Department of the Geophysical Sciences University of Chicago 5734 S. Ellis Ave Chicago, IL 60637
Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education- student's perspective
I think that Derek's older gentleman friend may have an idealistic view of why students went to college back in the remote 60's. When I entered college in 1954 (a good one, an Ivy League university) there was a reception for the scholarship students at which I met the Dean of Admissions. He immediately recognised me, to my great surprise. When I expressed shock that he could recognise me from a single photograph in a university with thousands of applicants he laughed and replied that I was especially memorable because of my reply to the question, Why do you wnt to go to Brown University?. My answer, which I thought straightforward but which was apparently unusual, was To get an education. I hardly believe that it became more common ten years later. Bill Silvert Brown '58 - Original Message - From: Derek Pursell dep1...@yahoo.com To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: sábado, 23 de Janeiro de 2010 6:20 Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education- student's perspective A good friend of mine, an older gentleman who has worked as president for an environmental NGO in the northeast for years, put it to me in a particularly striking way. He said, and I am paraphrasing, In terms of education, the reality in America is that a lot of people are going to college who shouldn't. When I asked him to expound on his point, he said, Ideally, especially when I was going to university in the 60's, it was viewed as a way of getting an education and expanding your mind and interests. The fact it could lead to meaningful and satisfying work was an afterthought. The point was education. Today, it feels like many students, and others have said this too, are going for certification. Instead of education being the end, it is the means to something else, such as a job position. It isn't like I am saying that people should not try to educate themselves; what I am saying is that the trend towards mass production of education (which very obviously has led to some real shortcomings in quality) has damaged the overall education of many students, and that some people who are students shouldn't be; standards have dropped for entry to many universities, and it shows. After hearing his thoughts, I thought about all the students I had met as a student whom were there because their parents told them to go and gave them the money to do so. Many of them didn't want to be there; they only knew that college was expected of them and they wouldn't resist being pushed into it, considering how many students these days treat college as an extension of high school. I realize that the opinions expressed here seem harsh and the evidence only anecdotal, but these are my personal observations. In the same breath, my former advising professor told me a story of a student years ago who came into his office angry. He asked the student why he was upset and he said he didn't want to be there. My professor pressed him and asked why, and he said it was because his old man was making him go to college. My professor informed him that he was an adult and didn't have to go to college if he didn't want to. The frustrated young man looked at him, nodded, thanked him, said goodbye, and as my former advisor professor testified, he never saw him again. It appears as if at least some people figure out on their own that college isn't for them, hm? - Derek E. Pursell
Re: [ECOLOG-L] decline in education, comment on active learning
One problem with many active learning methods is that they constrain when and how the student is to learn the material. In a traditional situation, I can attend lecture/lab, read the textbook, study with friends, study alone, decide our book sucks and use another one, look up material online, try problems, etc. It doesn't matter what methods I use or don't use. The only thing that matters is the result. In particular, I've had several math professors who graded homework to give students an incentive to do it, while also providing a way to get an A without turning in homework -- and gave fair warning that this was very unlikely to happen! On the other hand, active learning tends to be method-dependent. You're graded on the intermediate steps of learning, not just the outcome. If the methods a particular professor decides to use don't work well for me or if I already have a good grasp of the material, I still have to put in the time. Furthermore, if the professor decides that everybody needs to read the book before coming to class and gives a daily quiz to enforce the policy, the student has just lost some of the freedom to decide when to study. Maybe I find it helpful to have a lecture overview of the material before reading the more detailed book. Maybe I just have a big biochemistry exam and need to focus on that for a few days. Thus, many active learning methods have a paradoxical effect. By drawing attention to the process of learning as opposed to the outcome, they make the student more dependent on the professor for structuring their learning experience. Despite all of the above, I am not opposed to all active learning methods. In particular, I had a physiology professor in undergrad who would interrupt himself during lecture and start evaluating an idea he'd thought of or asking a question and trying to reason out the answer, thus modeling the process for us. This, plus the fact that he told the class on day one that he expected us to make mistakes and that these were just part of learning, really got people to ask questions and speak up in class -- and imposed no extra constraints. I myself, as a TA, have inflicted a journal assignment on ecosystem ecology students in which they were asked to wrestle with class material, ask questions and draw connections with their daily experiences or other classes. (This journal was only a small part of their grade and I gave substantive feedback, in the form of letters to each student.) And some things can only be learned through first-hand experience. I just wish the enthusiasm for active learning methods was tempered by an awareness of the constraints and dependence they can impose on students. Jane Shevtsov On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Sarah Berke skbe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I want to briefly respond to David Lawrence's comment from several days ago, about evaluation scores declining when he switched to active learning. This comment probably hit home for anyone who has tried active learning: I watched my evaluation scores decline when I switched to active learning. ...It was also unreasonable for me to expect them to ask questions relevant to the material we discussed in class. I had students complain they didn't learn anything from me For anyone who has ever been in this boat, you are not alone--this is a common phenomenon when introducing active learning methods to a student body that is accustomed to traditional lecture-based methods. Based on my own experiences, and those of various colleagues, I would guess that most instructors got similar comments when they first switched over from lecturing. I am fairly new to active learning myself, but I've talked with colleagues who have been doing it for years, and everyone says that it really does get better (particularly if many faculty in the department all start using it). I think comments like I didn't learn anything stem from problems with metacognition. How do you know when you've learned something? Memorizing 30 vocabulary words is a concrete achievement, you can point and say There, I learned these words. But interpreting data, or designing an experiment, or predicting the outcome of a perturbation to a system are all rather amorphous--there's no one thing to point to and say I've learned this. That can throw students for a loop. Furthermore, the level of energy and preparation required to participate in a learner-centered classroom can push students out of their comfort zones, particularly if they are accustomed to the ease of showing up and taking notes through a lecture. I am not trying to dismiss your student's comments, I'm just pointing out that some negative comments might have more to do with feeling uncomfortable in a new situation than with learning science per se. Happily, none of these issues are insurmountable. The trick is to help students be aware of their own progress, and to bring them on board with the goals of a
