[ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-05-01 Thread Clara B. Jones
1. I'm linking a *New York Times* Opinion piece addressing, from several
women's points of view, a number of topics being  discussed in this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/30/motherhood-vs-feminism/lets-not-pass-judgment-on-parenting-styles

2. After careful reading and consideration of your posts, I've formed the
opinion that, in the USA, it is most likely that each academic department
or university will respond individually to the concerns many of you have
(see Duke for one example in AS). It seems unlikely to me that, in the
USA, the issues will be addressed structurally as they have been in most W
European countries. In the final analysis, there may be no strategy that
serves all requirements. Anyway...TBC...

clara b. jones
Blog: http://vertebratesocialbehavior.blogspot.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/cbjones1943



-- Forwarded message --
From: Jacquelyn Gill jlg...@wisc.edu
Date: Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
professional life
To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu


Hi Karen,

The problem with this framework is that you risk guilting parents (usually
women) for choices they
are forced to make, or even those they may genuinely want to make,
especially if the parents' level of
engagement doesn't match what others expect. Like I said earlier, for some
people, a mother's
choosing to work at all is irresponsible. Framing arguments in this way is
ultimately damaging and
shifts the burden away from institutions who need to step up and support
parents, and instead shifts
that burden to parents for whom choice may be relative and is definitely
highly value-laden. I don't
see the value in reminding people who are probably already very aware that
that can't spend enough
time with their kids that, in addition for working hard to provide their
family at the expense of having
a fulfilling life, they're also not really raising their kids. Those
choices were probably hard to make. I
also still fail to see how that is relevant to a discussion of women in
academia-- the overwhelming
evidence is that women are leaving academia because there aren't
institutions in place to support
them, not that women are abandoning their families.

Best wishes,

Jacquelyn



-- 
clara b. jones


[ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Clara B. Jones
Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females in
research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
their families...
2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e.,
professorship [+]) status in the US...
5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
however, i suspect the answers are no...
6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research is
acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it seems
to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
hitch(h)iking on a senior person's research projects...though this
strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does not
translate to reputation or respect (indeed, there are exceptions)...
7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i think
i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts of
positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put it,
after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT OF...
8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA females
changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made other
commitments under the guise that they want to be senior scientists *as
defined in USA*...
9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate
students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own
rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to assume
responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the realities of USA
science that they signed up for*...
10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their
commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED,
SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to accomplish
the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA science
needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
best and most successful scientists in the world...
14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of
whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this
system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by not
changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara

-- Forwarded message --
From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
professional life
To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu


Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian model
 to the U.S.?  And how to get more universities and other employers in the
 U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples?  Thanks,
 David


Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... the
problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to pay higher
and more progressive taxes, socialize higher education (and health care),
punish job instability, remove undergraduate and graduate student fees (in
fact, undergraduates are paid in Finland!!) or increase graduate
student/post-doc salaries and benefits at the cost of reducing those of
professors...?


  Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com wrote:

 In my experience, it all depends on the country and how easy funding
 agencies, research institutions and governments make it. I have
 experience in several countries: Spain, USA, France and Finland. They
 each have their good and bad points on that respect. Fore example,
 while the USA and Canada tend to be pretty good at opening jobs for
 couples, which helps enormously the two-body problem, I find that some
 European countries offer better conditions to be a parent. For
 example, in Finland and Sweden the government offers paid maternity
 and/or paternity leaves of at least 10 months. Since this is a
 'stipend' independent of the scientific fellowship or contract, it
 essentially means that if they had 3-years of funding, they now will
 have that + 10 months (i.e. the grant or contract 'slides' forward).
 Moreover, there are good free or cheap daycare services and even
 sometimes, daycare or family-housing in field stations. The conditions
 are so good that I have never seen such a high rate of graduate
 students pregnant or with children as in those countries... and they
 are consequentially doing better than average at keeping women in
 science. Of 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Silvia Secchi
Men make the rules, men win the game, Clara. People like you that do not 
question the system or do not try to change it perpetuate a dysfunctional 
professional environment.

Silvia Secchi
Assistant Professor, Energy Economics  Policy
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale


On Apr 11, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Clara B. Jones foucaul...@gmail.com wrote:

 Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
 that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females in
 research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
 their families...
 2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
 3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
 equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
 4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
 cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e.,
 professorship [+]) status in the US...
 5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
 however, i suspect the answers are no...
 6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research is
 acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it seems
 to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
 hitch(h)iking on a senior person's research projects...though this
 strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does not
 translate to reputation or respect (indeed, there are exceptions)...
 7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i think
 i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts of
 positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put it,
 after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT OF...
 8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA females
 changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made other
 commitments under the guise that they want to be senior scientists *as
 defined in USA*...
 9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate
 students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own
 rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to assume
 responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the realities of USA
 science that they signed up for*...
 10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their
 commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
 11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED,
 SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to accomplish
 the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
 12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA science
 needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
 13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
 best and most successful scientists in the world...
 14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of
 whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this
 system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by not
 changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
 professional life
 To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu
 
 
 Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian model
 to the U.S.?  And how to get more universities and other employers in the
 U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples?  Thanks,
 David
 
 
 Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... the
 problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to pay higher
 and more progressive taxes, socialize higher education (and health care),
 punish job instability, remove undergraduate and graduate student fees (in
 fact, undergraduates are paid in Finland!!) or increase graduate
 student/post-doc salaries and benefits at the cost of reducing those of
 professors...?
 
 
  Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 In my experience, it all depends on the country and how easy funding
 agencies, research institutions and governments make it. I have
 experience in several countries: Spain, USA, France and Finland. They
 each have their good and bad points on that respect. Fore example,
 while the USA and Canada tend to be pretty good at opening jobs for
 couples, which helps enormously the two-body problem, I find that some
 European countries offer better conditions to be a parent. For
 example, in Finland and Sweden the government offers paid maternity
 and/or paternity leaves of at least 10 months. Since this is a
 'stipend' independent of the scientific fellowship or contract, it
 essentially means that if they had 3-years of funding, they now will
 have 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread David L. McNeely
Clara, I respectfully disagree with some of your points.  I will not detail 
each point, but will simply point out that collaboration is now the norm in 
science.  Look at the lists of authors, sometimes running to 10, on a paper 
nowadays.

People should get respect and reputation for the contributions they make, not 
for whether they are an 80 hour per week workaholic.  I've known plenty of 
those who were neither full people, nor very effective either when it came down 
to production.

Things can change without losing quality.  So far as accepting funding, that 
creates a responsibility to try to do one's best to accomplish the purpose of 
the funding, not to commit a life of 80 hour work weeks.

Women are people, too.  Even men are people, and can recognize the humanity in 
others.

Respectfully, David McNeely

 Clara B. Jones foucaul...@gmail.com wrote: 
 Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
 that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females in
 research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
 their families...
 2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
 3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
 equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
 4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
 cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e.,
 professorship [+]) status in the US...
 5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
 however, i suspect the answers are no...
 6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research is
 acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it seems
 to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
 hitch(h)iking on a senior person's research projects...though this
 strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does not
 translate to reputation or respect (indeed, there are exceptions)...
 7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i think
 i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts of
 positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put it,
 after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT OF...
 8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA females
 changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made other
 commitments under the guise that they want to be senior scientists *as
 defined in USA*...
 9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate
 students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own
 rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to assume
 responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the realities of USA
 science that they signed up for*...
 10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their
 commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
 11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED,
 SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to accomplish
 the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
 12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA science
 needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
 13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
 best and most successful scientists in the world...
 14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of
 whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this
 system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by not
 changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
 professional life
 To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu
 
 
 Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian model
  to the U.S.?  And how to get more universities and other employers in the
  U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples?  Thanks,
  David
 
 
 Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... the
 problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to pay higher
 and more progressive taxes, socialize higher education (and health care),
 punish job instability, remove undergraduate and graduate student fees (in
 fact, undergraduates are paid in Finland!!) or increase graduate
 student/post-doc salaries and benefits at the cost of reducing those of
 professors...?
 
 
   Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  In my experience, it all depends on the country and how easy funding
  agencies, research institutions and governments make it. I have
  experience in several countries: Spain, USA, France and Finland. They
  each have their 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Susan Pienta
To David's point regarding productivity:
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/

Don't worry if you refuse to work an 80 hour work week. You may be just as
productive as those working 40 hour weeks and still have time for family
and other pursuits.


Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Williams, Mark
It sounds like Clara is challenging the current theory and questioning it but I 
don't see that she has in any way perpetuated dysfunction. 

Facts indicate that woman have been and are still discriminated against but 
this doesn't explain all the variation we see- not by a long shot I don't 
think. 

I am not saying I agree with Clara, but wow, your statement, Silvia, is very 
dogmatic. Clara presented ideas to be considered and opinion to help inform the 
collective. Silvia rather, sounds much more bombastic with the intent to stifle 
her- that is unfortunate.

Mark


-Original Message-
From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Silvia Secchi
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 8:43 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your 
personal and professional life

Men make the rules, men win the game, Clara. People like you that do not 
question the system or do not try to change it perpetuate a dysfunctional 
professional environment.

Silvia Secchi
Assistant Professor, Energy Economics  Policy Southern Illinois University 
Carbondale


On Apr 11, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Clara B. Jones foucaul...@gmail.com wrote:

 Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
 that the advantages afforded to professional females (including 
 females in research science careers) in some countries are beneficial 
 to them and their families...
 2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
 3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research, 
 equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
 4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you cite 
 equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e., 
 professorship [+]) status in the US...
 5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions 
 are; however, i suspect the answers are no...
 6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative 
 research is acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA 
 where, it seems to me, females who rely on collaboration are 
 often/usually perceived as hitch(h)iking on a senior person's 
 research projects...though this strategy may, indeed, purchase senior 
 status in the USA, it often does not translate to reputation or respect 
 (indeed, there are exceptions)...
 7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i 
 think i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts 
 of positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put 
 it, after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT OF...
 8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA 
 females changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made 
 other commitments under the guise that they want to be senior 
 scientists *as defined in USA*...
 9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate 
 students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own 
 rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to 
 assume responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the 
 realities of USA science that they signed up for*...
 10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their 
 commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
 11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED, 
 SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to 
 accomplish the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
 12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA 
 science needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
 13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among 
 the best and most successful scientists in the world...
 14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of 
 whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this 
 system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by 
 not changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara
 
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
 Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal 
 and professional life
 To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu
 
 
 Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian 
 model
 to the U.S.?  And how to get more universities and other employers in 
 the U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples?  
 Thanks, David
 
 
 Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... 
 the problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to 
 pay higher and more progressive taxes, socialize higher education (and 
 health care), punish job instability, remove undergraduate and 
 graduate student fees (in fact, undergraduates are paid

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread David L. McNeely
?? Clara simply said everything about the current system as she 
sees it is fine, and those who find it does not provide effectively for them to 
participate and contribute because they have family responsibilities, well, too 
bad, they knew the system when they started, and should not want anything 
different from what they saw.  I saw nothing in her post that challenges the 
current system.  Rather, she challenges those who find fault with it to retreat 
from it and give up on the notion of participation and contribution.

David McNeely

 Williams wrote: 
 It sounds like Clara is challenging the current theory and questioning it but 
 I don't see that she has in any way perpetuated dysfunction. 
 
 Facts indicate that woman have been and are still discriminated against but 
 this doesn't explain all the variation we see- not by a long shot I don't 
 think. 
 
 I am not saying I agree with Clara, but wow, your statement, Silvia, is very 
 dogmatic. Clara presented ideas to be considered and opinion to help inform 
 the collective. Silvia rather, sounds much more bombastic with the intent to 
 stifle her- that is unfortunate.
 
 Mark
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
 [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Silvia Secchi
 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 8:43 AM
 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
 Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your 
 personal and professional life
 
 Men make the rules, men win the game, Clara. People like you that do not 
 question the system or do not try to change it perpetuate a dysfunctional 
 professional environment.
 
 Silvia Secchi
 Assistant Professor, Energy Economics  Policy Southern Illinois University 
 Carbondale
 
 
 On Apr 11, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Clara B. Jones foucaul...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
  that the advantages afforded to professional females (including 
  females in research science careers) in some countries are beneficial 
  to them and their families...
  2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
  3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research, 
  equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
  4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you cite 
  equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e., 
  professorship [+]) status in the US...
  5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions 
  are; however, i suspect the answers are no...
  6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative 
  research is acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA 
  where, it seems to me, females who rely on collaboration are 
  often/usually perceived as hitch(h)iking on a senior person's 
  research projects...though this strategy may, indeed, purchase senior 
  status in the USA, it often does not translate to reputation or respect 
  (indeed, there are exceptions)...
  7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i 
  think i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts 
  of positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put 
  it, after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT 
  OF...
  8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA 
  females changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made 
  other commitments under the guise that they want to be senior 
  scientists *as defined in USA*...
  9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate 
  students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own 
  rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to 
  assume responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the 
  realities of USA science that they signed up for*...
  10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their 
  commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
  11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED, 
  SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to 
  accomplish the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
  12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA 
  science needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
  13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among 
  the best and most successful scientists in the world...
  14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of 
  whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this 
  system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by 
  not changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara
  
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcre lopezsepul...@gmail.com
  Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Susan Howe
As a 48-year old Research Associate, who began a PhD program as a 
non-married, childless woman, who has since married, given birth to a 
son, and is now widowed, I am probably in a position to comment on the 
challenges of balancing life as a professional scientist, colleague, 
parent, head of household, community member, neighbor, friend, and any 
number of other roles we as fellow human beings play throughout our 
lives.  However, I think it may be more useful to pose a question to the 
scientific community at large://


/How well do you think we are doing in the academy, as individuals and 
collectively, at producing thoughtful and insightful scientific 
knowledge that truly serves to advance the national health, prosperity, 
and welfare, which--at least for the United States Government--is 
outlined as a primary mission in its support of the advancement of 
science through the National Science Foundation? /


It seems to me the old adage as within, so without applies here.

Susan Howe
Colorado State University
Research Associate
Civil and Environmental Engineering
Fort Collins, CO 80523


On 4/12/2012 8:42 AM, Silvia Secchi wrote:

Men make the rules, men win the game, Clara. People like you that do not 
question the system or do not try to change it perpetuate a dysfunctional 
professional environment.

Silvia Secchi
Assistant Professor, Energy Economics  Policy
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale


On Apr 11, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Clara B. Jonesfoucaul...@gmail.com  wrote:


Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females in
research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
their families...
2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e.,
professorship [+]) status in the US...
5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
however, i suspect the answers are no...
6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research is
acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it seems
to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
hitch(h)iking on a senior person's research projects...though this
strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does not
translate to reputation or respect (indeed, there are exceptions)...
7. ...following from the threads on this topic in the past few d...i think
i hear females saying that they're not competing for the sorts of
positions that i describe above...so be it...as one respondent put it,
after a baby came her priorities changed...again, so be it...SORT OF...
8. ...what i mean by SORT OF is that i don't see a problem with USA females
changing priorities UNLESS they've received funding or made other
commitments under the guise that they want to be senior scientists *as
defined in USA*...
9. ...several female respondents have pointed out that female graduate
students, post-docs, etc. are grown-ups capable of making their own
rational decisions...all good...then they should be prepared to assume
responsibility for their decisions...understanding *the realities of USA
science that they signed up for*...
10. ...what is the Plan B for these girls that will fulfill their
commitments *(to USA science)* when they switch priorities...
11. ...what is their plan for purchasing UNDIVIDED, UNINTERRUPTED,
SINGLE-FOCUSED, LONG-TERM, OFTEN UNPREDICTABLE TIME required to accomplish
the sort of senior science *as defined by USA standards*...
12. ...some females  minorities assert that the structure of USA science
needs to change...for a variety of reasons...
13. ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
best and most successful scientists in the world...
14. ...more important, in my opinion...is that RATIONAL grown-ups of
whatever sex or sexual orientation or personal status sign up for this
system  need not only to have their eyes open but need to step up by not
changing the rules unilaterally in mid- or late-stream...clara

-- Forwarded message --
From: Andres Lopez-Sepulcrelopezsepul...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
professional life
To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu


Andres, do you have any ideas about how we can import that Finlandian model

to the U.S.?  And how to get more universities and other employers in the
U.S. to recognize the need to provide for professional couples?  Thanks,
David


Ufff... this discussion may become more political than ecological... the
problem, as I see it is more fundamental. How willing are we to pay higher
and more progressive taxes, 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Kerns, Becky -FS
Some of the email that have emerged in this threat have been the most 
depressing I have seen on Ecolog in a long time - with some notable bright 
spots.

I would like to encourage all starting out graduate students and scientists - 
you are our future and please don't be discouraged by what you are hearing!   
There are now more female graduate students in college and both men and women 
are embracing healthier lifestyles that do not involve working 80+ or even 40+ 
hours per week.  I know some colleagues who share a single faculty appointment 
and have a great family, many outside of work of work pursuits, and contribute 
fabulous science and teaching.  Do they produce as much as someone working 80+ 
hours a week?  Individually probably not.  Is the quality there - sure!  What a 
bunch of malarkey that our science quality suffers because we are not 
workaholics.  As others pointed out, working too much can be counterproductive. 
  I remember breastfeeding my baby and making notes on my blackberry about some 
future ideas to pursue for research - when I had the time and energy.  Did I 
take my baby to the field - no.   But she sat with me in my office while I 
worked on publications, had conference calls, etc.

Now I have a 4 year old and I feel the biggest impediment to productivity in my 
life if the vastly increased administrative load that comes with supervising 
people and being a research team leader, federal budget cuts many of us are 
experiencing, and lack of visionary leadership in some parts of our agency.  
These issues, more than anything, will lead to poor quality science, not the 
fact that almost every week I take a few hours off to participate in my 
daughter's life.  But, as my earlier post indicated, I do not think I can have 
it all.  I cannot work 40+, 50+ etc. hours a week and have a quality life with 
my family (some people can though - all depends on how much down time you 
need).  I am willing to accept that, and the fact that I might not climb the 
ladder as fast as someone working more...

People now want much more out of life and they want to try to find a balance - 
whether that is having kids, rock climbing, skiing, pursuing their artistic 
side, etc.  This will only lead to more well-rounded and perhaps more 
insightful and creative people.  Maybe instead of having giants in the field 
who dominate our science with what can eventually become dogma we will have a 
variety of well-rounded voices that are being heard.  Maybe it is a good thing 
not to have a bunch of senior or giant scientists that take over the 
journals, have a zillion graduate students and postdocs, and whose thinking 
influences a discipline for 20 years+.  Ever heard of diversity???  Maybe 
another type of model will serve our science better...it will certainly be 
better for humanity...

My advice to women  and anyone entering the field - find an advisor, 
institution, supervisor etc. that will support a healthy lifestyle and your 
goals.  Accept that you might NOT be perceived as the most productive person by 
some of your peers who follow the old model...but do quality 
science...contribute to the field...but most of all...be HAPPY!  And don't give 
up!

Becky
Becky K. Kerns, Ph.D., Team Leader/Research Ecologist
Ecosystem Dynamics and Environmental Change
Threat Characterization and Management Program, PNW Research Station
3200 SW Jefferson Way, Corvallis, OR 97331
541.750.7497

-Original Message-
From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Claudia Ford
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 9:13 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Fwd.: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your 
personal and professional life

What a great and important conversation to have.  If any of us ever said, 
however, that everything about any current system was fine and did not need to 
be questioned or challenged - and too bad for us if we want change, as we 
should accept the status quo and not want anything different.  Well.
No, I do not think that we would have become scientists.  Challenging our 
current systems and our understandings about those systems is exactly what 
science, among most other things, is all about.  Claudia

On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 11:52 AM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote:

 ?? Clara simply said everything about the current system
 as she sees it is fine, and those who find it does not provide
 effectively for them to participate and contribute because they have
 family responsibilities, well, too bad, they knew the system when they
 started, and should not want anything different from what they saw.  I
 saw nothing in her post that challenges the current system.  Rather,
 she challenges those who find fault with it to retreat from it and
 give up on the notion of participation and contribution.

 David McNeely

  Williams wrote:
  It sounds like Clara is challenging the current theory

[ECOLOG-L] Fwd: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and professional life

2012-04-12 Thread Clara B. Jones
Listserv: 1. ...i decided to take a quick and dirty look @female Nobel
laureates in an attempt to assess how they did it and to document their
numbers compared to male honorees...(see link below)...
2. ...since 1895 (when the prize was inaugurated), 44 women have received a
Nobel, 17 of these (~39%) in math-based disciplines (medicine or
physiology: n= 10; chemistry: n= 4; physics: n= 2; economics: n= 1)...
3. ...807 men have won the Nobel (i did not readily find a breakdown x
area), 44, women...~5%...
4. ...i took a qd look @wiki entries for several of the women...marie
curie won twice (the only woman to do so); several, including curie, won
with husbands; curie's daughter won a Nobel with her husband; many are
theoreticians or made technical/methodological contributions; some of the
recent female awardees have 1 or 2 children; one is struck that these women
are tough sisters, some having had very challenging childhoods (see, for
instance, barbara mcclintock [a goldschmidt student!] and ada yonath [if i
recall correctly, the first israeli woman to win a Nobel])...etc., etc.
5. ...one would like to read biographies of all of these remarkable women
to get a better idea of how they did it, how they purchased control of
their time, and how they maintained their focus ...without being
distracted by other interesting things.
6. ...again, i'd like to recommend the biography of marie curie by
francoise giroud...
7. ...clara


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Nobel_laureates





































-- Forwarded message --
From: Kristine Callis kcal...@ufl.edu
Date: Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Families in Science - Balancing your personal and
professional life
To: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu


I think there are another interesting questions to pose: who do we want
raising the next generation?  Do we want to make it as easy as possible for
intelligent, hard working people to becoming parents (and spend the time
necessary with the children to raise productive, well adjusted people) and
continue to contribute to and be successful in science or do we want to
make it so difficult that they may decide not to reproduce and leave their
genes, which may have contributed to their success in our society, out of
the gene pool?  What is the cost, and is it worth it, of not creating an
environment capable of supporting a work-life balance that leads to
scientists having and raising children as well as continuing to be
productive scientists?  What is the cost to science of having well-educated
people drop out of science to raise families because they don't feel they
can do both?

Just some thoughts,
Kris Callis
PhD Candidate (and former MD)
University of Florida
(Mother, wife, ecologist. In that order and successful at all three)


On Apr 12, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Amanda Quillen wrote:

 ...however, why should the USA modify the system producing among the
best and most successful scientists in the world...

 Because maybe that isn't true and things could be better another way.
After grad school, I left academia for the private sector. I make more
money and get more respect from my colleagues and I have more free time
than in any postdoc I've ever heard about. Now I get to have a baby at a
biologically appropriate age with paid leave and excellent health coverage.
Surely I'm not alone in this. Why would our brightest scientists subject
themselves to the other system if they have a choice? Perhaps many of them
didn't. Maybe I don't have a bunch of publications, but my research gets
immediately incorporated into products and powerful people listen to what I
say. That kind of impact is very rewarding. There is another way, people.

 Amanda Quillen, Ph.D.
 http://www.AmandaQuillen.com/

 On Apr 11, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Clara B. Jones foucaul...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Andres: 1. ...i think i really do hear what you are saying, and i get
 that the advantages afforded to professional females (including females
in
 research science careers) in some countries are beneficial to them and
 their families...
 2. ...however, what level of Science are these females doing...
 3. ...is their productivity, including the quality of their research,
 equivalent to that of USA men who work, say, 80+ h/week...
 4. ...is the quality of work being done in the countries you
 cite equivalent to what would be required to achieve senior (i;e.,
 professorship [+]) status in the US...
 5. ...i don't think i know what the answers to the above questions are;
 however, i suspect the answers are no...
 6. ...from what i do know, however, i THINK that collaborative research
is
 acceptable in Europe to a degree that it is not in the USA where, it
seems
 to me, females who rely on collaboration are often/usually perceived as
 hitch(h)iking on a senior person's research projects...though this
 strategy may, indeed, purchase senior status in the USA, it often does
not
 translate to reputation or respect (indeed,