Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-11 Thread Cynthia O'Rourke
Jason touches on my primary concern with this situation, other than having a Ph.D. that might eventually enable me to do no better than tech position in the field that I love. Ecology, evolution, and to a broader extent the organismal sciences have been predominately white and middle-class fields

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-11 Thread Jane Shevtsov
People from comfortable middle-class backgrounds don't know how to be poor. In grad school, other students were complaining about their assistantships, but it was more money than I had ever had. Since graduation, I've alternated between temporary full-time and half-time positions (reasonably

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-11 Thread Malcolm McCallum
From the Chronicle of Higher Education. Maybe we should all just become administrators? http://chronicle.com/article/Administrator-Hiring-Drove-28-/144519/ (excerpt below!) February 5, 2014 Administrator Hiring Drove 28% Boom in Higher-Ed Work Force, Report Says By Scott Carlson Thirty-four

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Mitch Cruzan
I do not agree with any intent to limit the aspirations of our students. It is not our decision as academics to tell students don't bother, you're not going to ever get a job any more than it is the job of a coach to tell his athletes that they are not Olympic or major league material. I

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Malcolm McCallum
I think its 99% money at the department level. I have been last hired last fired scenario after budget issues three schools strait. First school, in my first year I had more grants than anyone in the department, two MS students. Second year, budgets hit the fan, I was let go. Second school,

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Judith S. Weis
The existence of many good and rewarding jobs outside academia - in federal agencies (EPA, NOAA, FWS, USGS, FDA etc.) as well as in state agencies, the private sector (e.g. consulting firms) and non-profits (environmental groups) or for those who love teaching, teaching in K-12 seems to be ignored

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Christopher Blair
There are obviously non-academic jobs for people, with the quantities and opportunities depending on the field in which the PhD was obtained. However, people need to realize that it is usually just as difficult, if not more so, to get some of these non-academic jobs as it is a tt job. For example,

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Anne Kelly
As a newly graduating PhD with a K12 teaching credential, I can attest that there are not many jobs for new PhDs outside of academia. I am looking in all sectors except consulting, but I'm not qualified as a consultant. My only interview so far has been with a non-profit, where I was one of

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Karen McKee
As someone who has worked in both academia and for a Federal government agency, I can attest to what Chris just posted. Getting a permanent position (at a Ph.D. Level) in a science agency is possibly as difficult as getting a tenure-track position at a university--maybe more so in some cases.

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Malcolm McCallum
I don't think its being ignored. EPA and other federal jobs are highly variable in availability. Right now is a clear down turn, and with the cuts to the EPA in the recent budget, don't count on much there. Highschool teaching is not a realistic option for a PHD, it can be for a masters level

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Karen Weber
To contribute to the conversation of the difficulty of obtaining non-academic employment, I offer an abridged version of my personal experience. I have over 11 years experience as a field biologist, mainly working as a seasonal tech doing field work for universities, graduate students and

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Malcolm McCallum
It needs to be pointed out that PHD and MS advisors in general are not culprits. Most of them I have known are interested in helping students realize a future as a professor, researcher, or whatever direction it is that a student is pursuing. The concerns many are voicing here are representative

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-10 Thread Thomas J. Givnish
Yes, the lousy US job market as a whole is a problem, and has been since late 2008. This has been the slowest recovery on record since WWII. But let's keep four things in mind re the topic at hand: 1. Attempts by anti-tax, libertarian and hard-right groups to cut investment in education are

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread David Inouye
In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate students), and 55 for women. When I asked a female faculty member about that in a visit to China 2 years ago, she seemed very accepting of the idea

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Judith S. Weis
Since women generally live longer than men, what reason, aside from discrimination, does China have for requiring them to retire 5 years earlier? In China academics (at least ecologists) have a mandatory retirement age of 60 for men (can be extended to 65 if you're actively advising graduate

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Aaron T. Dossey
Rather than a rather arbritrary age-based cutoff, why not allow attrition based on lack of productivity? ie: if a department thinks they can get a better crop of faculty, why not allow them to let some go in favor of departmental improvement? (yes, this would probably mean an end to, or at

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Aaron T. Dossey
Wouldn't there be many more postdocs than adjuncts fitting this description (and possibly on food stamps)? https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 On 2/9/2014 10:20 AM, John A. wrote: -the invisible and disregarded of modern academia. ATD of ATB and ISI --

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Nirmalya Chatterjee
The best solution imho, but trust the older administrative types to not implement such a policy because it will affect them the most, just like in our political scene. Well we can hope though ! On 9 February 2014 13:57, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: Rather than a rather arbritrary

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Bruce Turner
This is a painful, poignant but necessary discussion that academic biologists in general need to keep in mind. I would add another question: how many retirees academic biology retirees are living (partially) on food stamps as well..? I know a couple in just my own area. At first, to many on this

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Kevin Klein
I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their chosen disciplines. In so doing, they make more

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread David L. McNeely
Kevin Klein kkl...@mail.ic.edu wrote: I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but one thing I draw from what I have read is that it is incumbent on those of us who work with students at all stages in their academic careers to also advise them to consider the job market in their

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Neahga Leonard
One thing that would help a lot would be to get rid of the system of unpaid and underpaid internships and make those real-paying jobs. Many graduates at all levels of education find themselves in a position where the majority of positions available are internships, more and more of which require

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Aaron T. Dossey
Exactly! Unfortunately, the academic pyramid structure has made itself far too dependent on cheap temporary labor of students and postdocs. So, they continue to wave the career carrot out there, with no intention to reform the system in a way that makes the carrot real. In reality, the new

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread David L. McNeely
Well, the adjunct positions, a fancy word for part-time jobs, are the main problem at the Ph.D. level. A majority of credit hours at some institutions are taught in that way. At community colleges there are often only a handful of full-time faculty, with part-time teaching almost all the

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Malcolm McCallum
Its more than a way to lower costs. Its a way to weaken faculty governance. On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 5:15 PM, David L. McNeely mcnee...@cox.net wrote: Well, the adjunct positions, a fancy word for part-time jobs, are the main problem at the Ph.D. level. A majority of credit hours at some

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread David Duffy
If we agree that jobs for ecologists are resource limited, and If we agree that resources are not increasing, then it follows that ecologists who wish to produce intellectual offspring (MS and PhD) should produce such offspring in a way that maximizes the probability that they will be represented

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Steven Schwartz
I’ll add my two cents. The scarcity of positions is absolutely nothing new. In the 1980’s it was not unusual for there to be 300-400 applicants or more for positions in any kind of organismal biology. It was during that decade that doing a post-doc in ecology became the norm as a holding

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Recent PhDs on Food Stamps - Overwhelmed with Replies

2014-02-09 Thread Michael Garvin
Has anyone established that the reduction in open positions is due to a lack of funds? It seems to me that Universities are fairly flush given the increases in tuition and the overhead charges to grants (over 50% in most cases). That alone has been an eye opener as I’ve been writing grants to