Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-30 Thread Art Kendall
In my experience, students benefit from the individual and group _production_ of summaries, syndicate notes, and cheat sheets. Reviewing the summaries produced by students gives a teacher feedback on what is or is not understood, and whether the relative emphasis of the lessons _as received_ is

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-27 Thread Herman Rubin
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan McLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Herman Rubin wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan McLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert J. MacG. Dawson wrote: Alan McLean wrote: The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. and Lise DeShea

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-26 Thread Herman Rubin
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul W. Jeffries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Dawson said that one of his approaches to dealing with z test is to treat it as a historical anecdote. I like that approach and must give it a try. It is almost the other way around. The z test comes up as an

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-26 Thread Herman Rubin
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert J. MacG. Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul W. Jeffries wrote: What are list members views on teaching students to use tables. In the computer age, tables are an anachronism. The vast

p- values Was: Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-26 Thread Herman Rubin
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lise DeShea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan McLean wrote: ... In general, I emphasise the use of p values - in many ways it is a more natural way than using critical values to carry out a test. The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. I

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-26 Thread Alan McLean
Herman Rubin wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan McLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert J. MacG. Dawson wrote: Alan McLean wrote: The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. and Lise DeShea responded: ...

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-26 Thread Herman Rubin
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan McLean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert J. MacG. Dawson wrote: Alan McLean wrote: The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. and Lise DeShea responded: ... There is certainly no contradiction. A

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Alan McLean
I agree - although students do need tables in (written) exams... But we use a computer program called Tuteman in our teaching and testing, so the natural way to find critical values or p-values is via the computer - we use Excel mainly. In general, I emphasise the use of p values - in many

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Lise DeShea
Alan McLean wrote: ... In general, I emphasise the use of p values - in many ways it is a more natural way than using critical values to carry out a test. The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. I disagree. The p-value may be small when a study has enormous power yet a

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Robert J. MacG. Dawson
Alan McLean wrote: The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. and Lise DeShea responded: I disagree. The p-value may be small when a study has enormous power yet a small effect size. A p-value by itself doesn't say much. I don't think there's actually a

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Alan McLean
Robert J. MacG. Dawson wrote: Alan McLean wrote: The p value is a direct measure of 'strength of evidence'. and Lise DeShea responded: I disagree. The p-value may be small when a study has enormous power yet a small effect size. A p-value by itself doesn't say much.

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread jim clark
Hi On 25 Apr 2001, Alan McLean wrote: I agree - although students do need tables in (written) exams... But we use a computer program called Tuteman in our teaching and testing, so the natural way to find critical values or p-values is via the computer - we use Excel mainly. In general, I

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Robert J. MacG. Dawson
Paul W. Jeffries wrote: What are list members views on teaching students to use tables. In the computer age, tables are an anachronism. The vast majority of students will never use a t table. Were it only so...

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread dennis roberts
as for the use of t tables ... or any other ... 1. one issue is can the student USE the table ... that is, you specify some from the table and you want to know if they can find it 2. another issue is what the student knows about what happens in the table as df changes 3. another issue is

Re: Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-25 Thread Robert J. MacG. Dawson
dennis roberts wrote: as for the use of t tables ... or any other ... 1. one issue is can the student USE the table ... that is, you specify some from the table and you want to know if they can find it Yes. That is, in my experience, students, small dogs, and most white

Artifacts in stats: (Was Student's t vs. z tests)

2001-04-24 Thread Paul W. Jeffries
Robert Dawson said that one of his approaches to dealing with z test is to treat it as a historical anecdote. I like that approach and must give it a try. But this approach made me think about artifacts in statistics. What are list members views on teaching students to use tables. In the