i would like to comment on this ... without getting anyone mad at me. i
have heard this argument many times before but ... i think that if we
promulgate this ... what it means is that we are not doing our students any
favors ... i don't view some general stat package as a "specialist" package
...
At 11:37 PM 11/29/99 -0500, Bob Hayden wrote:
Someone found another bug in Excel's statistics routines. Someone
else came up with a clever alternative. What you have to think about
is all the bugs you have not noticed yet. Anybody can do statistic
with Minitab, but you need a Ph.D. in
of course ... if one believes that NEITHER really give you any useful
information about population parameters ... means ... or correlation
values, etc. ... remember, the t distribution and associated tests using
it, is not JUST used for means ... THEN, maybe this distinction is trivial
...
in minitab for example ... the command ANOVA insists on equal ns in the
cells ... glm does not ... this is not a conceptual difference as don was
pointing out ... but, it is important IF you happen to be using minitab
--
208 Cedar Bldg., University
i would highly recommend a paper by ken brewer ... titled: behavioral
statistics textbooks: source of myths and misconceptions, Journal of
Educational Statistics .. Fall, 1985, V 10, #3, pp 252-268 ... for an
excellent discussion of the CLT
At 12:20 PM 12/15/99 -0600, Olsen, Chris wrote:
first, why does she want to do this?
second, does the distribution as is, look like a normal distribution? if
not ... why would you want to FORCE it to look like that?
third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the
At 02:34 PM 12/21/99 -0600, EAKIN MARK E wrote:
Dennis Roberts writes:
i said this ...
third ... usually, "curving" means lowering the cutoffs ... that were
established at the beginning of a course (maybe in the syllabus) if
that is the case ... then there is NO s
this shows how naive deming really was ...
who says learning "should" be a joy? learning is WORK ... and, work is
hard. now, some kids really relish the task and challenges ... but many
others do not ... should we blame THEM?
but, i don't really see what deming has to do with our discussion of
OTECTED] wrote:
I never, as a teacher, used any curving
procedure to lower students grades!
==========
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
efinitions ... then this translates into unclear
procedures for doing so in real practice ... and, college catalogs don't
help ... have a look at where grades are discussed and see if that helps
much i doubt it
======
dennis roberts, penn state university
e
over and over again ... and, in this
context a transcript merely gives us some more information about certain
states of nature ...
in this context ... transcripts are helpful ...
==========
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychol
happy new year to everyone ... hope your y2k +1 year is great!
now, the y2k scare provides us with an excellent example of confounds (more
or less) .. consider the following:
Time One: lots of hype about "potential" disasters related to y2k ... (PRETEST)
Time Two: billions of $$$ spent
At 08:20 AM 1/7/00 -0500, Paige Miller wrote:
I read somewhere that a state government agency deliberately left three
computers unfixed for Y2K and they crashed immediately and were useless.
the problem with this is how does one know that these 3 would not have
crashed even if there were
it appears that the longer i go, the more info i tend to gather for other
folks ... especially via the web. now, i have my favorite search engines
... and for sure, none is perfect. in addition to things like altavista,
infoseek, etc. ... i like ones such as google, directhit, dogpile, and
says (if it can say anything) that time produces test
performance . surely the other way around would make no sense
what kind of data are you thinking about when you pose this question?
==
dennis roberts, penn state university
/
===
==
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
===
This list is open
This post is rather long, sorry.
I have started a new listserv ... called INTROSTAT-L ... that will be
housed here at Penn State, and uses the list server lists.psu.edu. Here is
a brief explanation of what the purpose of the list is, and information
about who the list has been primarily
a lot of this depends on who the target audience is is it adults in
general? those who have interest in computers? those who 'do' email? those
who are on email lists?
this is your first concern
then, after deciding on the above ... one has to assess IF a sampling plan
will get TO those
i use minitab and it does not display anywhere the mode (not saying it
should) ... does anyone who uses any other software know if your software
displays mode/modes in any command or output display? (i don't mean a
frequency distribution where YOU can locate it ... but, rather ... it lists
AS
in minitab ... is there a way to make a grouped frequency distribution and
store the results? for example ...
C1 Count
10 1
12 2
14 1
15 1
16 2
19 1
20 1
21 1
22 2
23 2
well, this is interesting indeed ... for let's say that you did adopt a .1
level for a pilot AND, you just happened to reject the null IN the pilot
... is THAT sufficient justification for committing more time and resources
TO a large main study?? the implication from this pilot result is that
grading projects for a first assignment REreminds me that ... some students
go way above and beyond the call of duty when doing projects ... in my
case, they have to download a file ... do some analyses ... and then do
some write up of what they found.
now, some go to alot to trouble to do
At 08:19 AM 03/21/2000 -0500, Herman Rubin wrote:
The purpose of any course should be the development of
knowledge and the ability to use it. Even the use of
assignments for any other purpose does not contribute to
education. Assignments for the purpose of having the
students do assignments,
the purpose and any inferential statistical procedure is to either answer
the question: what is the parameter, or ... to test some specific
hypothesis ABOUT a parameter ...
thus, the goal of inferential statistics IS finding the parameter.
now, significance is nothing more than asking what is
the other thing i wanted to mention was that ... if you develop some strict
calculator policy ... then you spend too much time at the beginning of a
class ... checking to make sure that each student ONLY has what is allowed ...
in addition, since good calculators allow storage ... and we would
how come when you do a pdf on a unit norm distribution and one say, where
mean is 100 and sd = 15 ... you get different pdf values along the Y
axis??? is it just because the lenght of the continuity along X is
narrower/wider?
0.030+
-
C2 - * * *
go to http://www.sagepub.com/
search on ... factor analysis ... some nice short books here
At 03:06 PM 4/5/00 +0200, Gottfried Helms wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What are your favorite book(s) on factor analysis?
What do you think of R. Gorsuch's book?
My favorite is Stan
let's say that today ... we as the statistical community decided, by
democratic vote, that the concept of 'hypothesis testing' ... which has
essentially dominated statistical work for as long as i can remember
(which, er um ... is a LOT of years!) ... is relegated to the 'we USED
to do
the discussion of comparing variances brings to mind the following ... and
is related to the post i just sent re: hyp testing
let's assume that we are interested whether there is some difference in
treatment effects ... as measured by means ... our null is the mu1 = mu2
now, we use the
new tricks is not easy, right? If such a vote were
taken today with the results suggested by Mr.Roberts, I know I have
successfully misled literally thousands of students. Would re-education
be the
answer?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
let's say that to
At 04:00 PM 4/7/00 -0500, Michael Granaas wrote:
But whatever form hypothesis testing takes it must first and formost be
viewed in the context of the question being asked.
this seems to be the key to REinventing ourselves ... make sure the focus
is on the question ... AND, to REshape the
, Michael Granaas wrote:
On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, dennis roberts wrote:
At 04:00 PM 4/7/00 -0500, Michael Granaas wrote:
But whatever form hypothesis testing takes it must first and formost be
viewed in the context of the question being asked.
this seems to be the key to REinventing
At 01:16 PM 4/10/00 -0300, Robert Dawson wrote:
No if you have to start "a more sensible null would be perhaps" you
almost surely do not have a hypothesis worth testing.
now we get to the crux of the matter ... WHY do we need a null ... or any
hypothesis ... (credible and/or
At 01:16 PM 4/10/00 -0300, Robert Dawson wrote:
both leave the listener wondering "why 0.5?" If the only answer is "well,
it was a round number close enough to x bar [or "to my guesstimate before
the experiment"] not to seem silly, but far enough away that I thought I
could reject it." then the
here are a few (fastly found i admit) urls about scientific method ... some
are quite interesting
http://dharma-haven.org/science/myth-of-scientific-method.htm#Overview
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html
http://idt.net/~nelsonb/bridgman.html
the logic behind the null hypothesis method is flawed ... IF you are
looking for truth AND you keep following the logic of testing AGAINST a
null ...
first, say you reject the null of rho = 0 ...
then, LOGICALLY ... this says that since we don't know what truth is ...
just what we think it
here are two sample r values ... done in minitab ... and the associated output
Correlations: C52, C53
Pearson correlation of C52 and C53 = 0.599
P-Value = 0.000
MTB corr c54 c55
Correlations: C54, C55
Pearson correlation of C54 and C55 = 0.586
P-Value = 0.075
now, minitab prints out a p
i found this ... someone has made some excel demos ... using the lotus
product screencam ... which shows desktop work ...
http://www.business.utah.edu/~mgtdgw/statmov.htm
screencam can be seen at
http://www.lotus.com/home.nsf/welcome/screencam
you need a screencam player ... which is a
At 02:29 PM 4/11/00 -0300, Robert Dawson wrote:
The problem is that failure to reject means *either* that the null is
true *or* that the sample size too small *or* both;
"or" both says then ... that the null IS true AND that sample size is
TOO small ...
too small for what???
translate THAT into some working hunch worthy of testing ... rather
than defining nulls that in many cases are rather silly ... i would be happier
======
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu
a professor thought that he was producing a test of 50 items at 'about the
50%' difficulty level, that is .. on average, the scores would be about
50%. now, he collected data from a random sample of n=40 of his class ...
gave them the test ... and then did a ttest using 25 as the null ... he
it appears to me that we are having the same kinds of discussions on this
topic as usual and we go round and round ... and where we stop depends
on when people get tired of it
is progress being made? i wonder ...
perhaps some of this time would be better spent defining more what a
==
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
===
This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful
people send inappropriate
At 08:37 AM 4/13/00 -0400, Art Kendall wrote:
in the "harder to do" sciences it is common to distinguish an experiment
from a
quasi-experiment.
Part of the difficulty of these fields is that we can not (or ethically may
not) manipulate many independent variables. Therefore we lose the
At 10:23 AM 4/13/00 -0500, Michael Granaas wrote:
In addition to defining the variables some areas do a better job of
defining and therefore testing their models. The ag example is one where
not only the variables are relatively clear so are the models. That is
there is one highly plausible
see what happens when i ... usually about once a year ... post a note
asking what value is there, if any, in classical statistical hypothesis
testing? the discussion runs amok ...
i love it!
and we wonder why STUDENTS have a difficult time in stat?
if we were to compile the dozens and dozens
At 10:32 AM 4/17/00 -0300, Robert Dawson wrote:
There's a chapter in J. Utts' mostly wonderful but flawed low-math intro
text "Seeing Through Statistics", in which she does much the same. She
presents a case study based on some of her own work in which she looked at
the question of gender
At 08:07 PM 4/17/00 +, Charles D Madewell wrote:
As a working engineer and part time graduate student I do not even
understand why anyone would want to do away with hypothesis testing.
I have spent many, many hours of my graduate school life learning,
reading, calculating, and analyzing
At 04:26 PM 4/17/00 -0500, Paul R Swank wrote:
I disagree with the statement that the split-half reliability coefficient
is of no use anymore. Coefficient alpha, while being an excellent estimator
of reliability, does have one rather stringent requirement. The items must
be homogeneous.
i don't
At 03:37 PM 4/18/00 -0400, Rich Ulrich wrote:
I don't know how well they handle real data, but (a) Dennis has seemed
to fail this STANDARD, on certain hypothetical questions. However, I
don't like those hypothetical questions, because it is too easy to
pretend that they are something else. I
is there a standard error ... for an effect size?
as an example ... say you were looking at differences between means between
control and treatment ... and, the effect size came out to be ... for sake
of argument ... .3 ... in favor of the treatment
is there (in this case) some standard error
let's say that one designs a simple experiment about the effectiveness of a
weight change program ...
you set your sights on a power of .7 ... (beta therefore being .3) ...
select a two tailed alpha of .05 ... because the situation is such that
this program could actually make you gain weight
table?) but that SPSS and other software will not compute such a
correlation."
if you can handle one residual variable ... why not two?
======
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.
At 07:57 AM 4/26/00 -0500, Herman Rubin wrote:
It does not surprise me one bit. The typical statistics
course teaches statistical methods and pronouncements, with
no attempt to achieve understanding. snip of more
this is something i happen to agree with herman about ... but, it is a
At 11:09 AM 4/28/00 -0500, EAKIN MARK E wrote:
Besides independent normal errors with mean zero and constant
variance, some (many?) econometric text books do make the assumption that
the independent variables are uncorrelated. For example see
Gujarti, Damodar (1988), _Basic Econometrics 2nd
comment re: command language ... not only does minitab
downplay it ... and have been for several releases now ... they almost
don't even acknowlege that it exists ... it does!
==
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology
but, another alternative is to think about not ONE package ... but perhaps
2 ... sure, to become comfortable with both, it takes more time BUT, many
packages allow for pretty good inter changeability of worksheets AND ...
there are some student editions that would keep the cost down ...
i
of 'typical' studies as to
make such p value squabbles rather silly ...
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http
of efficiency
and/or interest ... and why?
thanks for your assistance
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http
to bring it up to date but, if any of you can use it ... go ahead
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu
t.ncsu.edu/
=======
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/d
here is ... is the difference big enough and/or important enough
... that it will impact on other things you want to do where assumptions
are ALSO made about variabilities in the groups/populations
it may or may not ... and anything inbetween too
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Ced
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sample (maybe from the
first large group) and follow up with them ... in DETAIL ... probing ...
too bad too much of the literature is ONLY based on Phase 1 kinds of things
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863
/
===
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
FRAMES: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drframe.htm
a bank does not mean that they agree with (nor would we
expect them to) all the practices of the bank ... scale scores (not even
from a rasch developed scale) are not a true guttman scale
certainly though ... one does not need the rasch model to detect these
tendencies ...
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy
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Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL
i spotted this ...
http://www.sa.psu.edu/sara/pulse/bookstore.html
about 1/2 way down the page ... see the graph titled
"Penn State Bookstore Support for Activities" ...
should these dots be connected?
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Par
on the screen mimiced the actions taken by the instructor,
e.g. the cursor moved, formale were typed in and there was a voice over
lay. I think the software was called screen player or something like
that. Anyone out there have a clue?
Thanks
Bill
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208
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Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
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presentations
(where you can as well have animations, sliding arrows, recorded voice,
etc.? Smaller files or something?
thanks
- Original Message -
From: dennis roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: William Dudley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 10:21 AM
Subject
cases ... since
you could make the movie longer ... but go more slowly ... visuals might be
sufficient ...
the small file size seems to be a real plus ... even with modems, could
download quickly
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL
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Dennis Roberts
and information about how to
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Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
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Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg
.
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
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... as long as you KNOW they are turned on!
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
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?
and, if there is not an answer to this ... tell me that too
==
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educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
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dennis roberts, penn state uni
... to call all
about 1 seems not quite fair either
the best rule of a thumb variety or not is ... take them all with a grain
of salt
using statistics ... and understanding what each might provide (ie, what IS
the mean anyway) .. are not the same ...
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 C
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dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http
for my strategy but here goes
==
dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
==
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
...
==
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
.
maybe to get you into a better perspective ... you should try yuengling
from pennsylvania ... from america's oldest brewery
==
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PR
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==
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
... this does not
really tell me anything of import about the overall population ...
it is the inference where the problem lies ... and what we can say about
the population FROM the sample ... that is of concern ...
==
Dennis Roberts
the main problem of course ... with online surveys ... or, with any other
'kind of convenient' surveys ... is to whom do you generalize the results?
the notion is simple in inference ... our sample is meant to tell us
something about THE population that we want to generalize the findings TO
At 07:32 AM 7/13/00 -0400, Paige Miller wrote:
How exactly do you generalize the results from a "sample" of people who
elect to respond to an opinion question, for example at http://cnn.com,
to a larger population?
this is precisely the problem ... since, there is essentially NO control
over
the internet movie database is a great site where reviews and info about
movies can be found
http://us.imdb.com/
one movie i looked at was mystery, alaska ... found at
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0134618
now, if you scroll down a bit and click on VOTE HERE ... you see the kinds
of charts they
all of this discussion re: t test and normality and when it makes a
difference and when it does not ... plus all the other assumptions made in
all kinds of tests with similar sometimes/sometimes not problems ...
just reinforces the fact that we need to be real skeptical about p values
it is very difficult to set a "price" on a course ... between and within
institutions ... especially even within an institution since, workloads
vary and job responsibilities vary ...
it would indeed be an interesting accounting exercise for an institution to
implement ... trying to figure
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dennis roberts, penn state university
educational psychology, 8148632401
http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
1. i find interesting the obvious that ... while students seem to fear
statistics primarily because it contains "math" ... and they dislike math
... since they think math is so OBjective and exact ... while the fact of
the matter is that there are wide variations ( ... our discussion of bar
well this indeed is interesting ... i now know what we can talk about for
the first ENTIRE week of a basic stat class ...
histograms and bar charts
1. a compilation of all the definitions thereof (including greek roots)
2. discussion of whether a "histogram" can be used for depicting a
if you have X bar .. that IS the point estimate OF mu ... (it is one value)
if you have calculated some confidence interval ... then that is the
INTERVAL estimate of mu ... (this is a range of values within which ... you
hope that mu falls ... )
to build the CI ... you start with a point
unfortunately, most books are not clear on everything ... hopefully, the
book will deal with basic issues and concepts reasonably well
ask students the following:
say you were at the race track and ... you have picked your favorite horse
for race #7 ...
1. how many minutes do you think it
http://www.salary.com/
interesting site
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