Not to argue but to move toward clarity...
Low level signals are by definition closer to the noise. That would
also mean that there would be more stuff between CW bauds. Crisp
to some means that the artifacts which define the beginning and the
ends of a baud are there. The extreme artifact is a
...@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:17 AM
To: David Gilbert
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 AGC Mush ... or blur
Not to argue but to move toward clarity...
Low level signals are by definition closer to the noise. That would also
mean that there would be more
I really can't agree with the mush comment. I've just returned from ZF1A
where we put almost 8000 Qs in the log over the CQWW CW weekend. I took my
K3 and was able to evaluate it against the station's existing TS-850 since
we were M/S and rotated positions. In my opinion, the 850 WAS mushy and
K5WA wrote
In this case, K6AM feels like his hearing is
limited to a frequency range of 6-7K while mine is still near 20K. Maybe
that is part of the puzzle.
Not likely unless you can hear the 12k artifact (solved with the LPF upgrade
for the DSP). Which reminds me...someone previously
The only time I heard mush on the K3 was when we had worked down the
pileup and only had very low strength guys all calling on the same
frequency (the packet/reverse beacon spotting phenomenon).
Multiple low level signals close in frequency is EXACTLY the situation
that I and at least
David,
Does turning AGC off (but leaving RF GAIN at max) ever un-blur the
signals?
Wayne
N6KR
On Dec 5, 2011, at 9:39 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
The only time I heard mush on the K3 was when we had worked down the
pileup and only had very low strength guys all calling on the same
To be honest, I've never tried that very often. The one or two times I
have done so (AGC off, RF Gain at max) have not been pleasant
experiences. The only time I get a pileup of weak signals is working
Europe from here in Arizona, and that means I have to point through some
very loud
Multiple low level signals close in frequency is EXACTLY the situation
that I and at least several others are concerned about. I don't notice
Curiousity is getting the best of me...what transceiver(s) *don't* exhibit this
problem and allow
individual discernment of multiple weak signals near
On 12/5/2011 10:38 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
If I get the chance during the upcoming ARRL 10m contest I'll give it
another try. I'll also try to record the entire contest to see if I can
come up with a decent sound clip.
That would be really cool, David. My K3 replaced my TS-850 [which I
Does anyone have a clear recording of this situation using a receiver
that *doesn't* have trouble separating the signals? Better yet, a
recording made of both the K3 and this other receiver at the same
time. That would really help.
tnx
Wayne
N6KR
On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:42 PM, David Gilbert
Hi,
Clearly, audio clips are needed if Elecraft is going to have any chance of
getting to the bottom of this. If this problem is real, somebody ought to be
able to produce objective evidence of it with comparable evidence of other
receivers not having the problem.
AB2TC - Knut
wayne burdick
I think Mr. Harper has hit the nail squarely on the head
with this comment:
I think our expectations of the K3 are based largely on
what we migrated to the K3 from.
Its the same expectation that I have for transmit audio
punch. It took me six months to feel comfortable with my
audio settings on
This has been a very real problem for serious contesters and is the
number one dissatisfaction I have with the K3 ... and with Elecraft.
Multiple low level CW signals within a narrow passband simply turn to
mush and are very difficult to distinguish. I use the bare minimum AGC
settings in an
Hi David,
We're keenly aware of this and have been trying to reproduce this here
in the lab for a long time without success.
This is an issue that has been reported for years on a wide range of
radios from all of the manufacturers, with conflicting reports pro/con
on each radio. Each person
Also, in the heat of the contest or DX pile up most reporters do not
recall how they had their AGC parameters set (threshold, slope, AGC
decay soft/hard, fast or slow, and fast/slow settings etc. If you can
let us know your complete set up for AGC parameters, if you are using
headphones or
This is exactly what I have noticed too. Not even 10 signals
are needed either.
/SM2EKM
---
On 2011-12-04 20:53, Merv Schweigert wrote:
Also, in the heat of the contest or DX pile up most reporters do not
recall how they had their AGC parameters set
Could be interesting if you could name at least a few
of these radios?
/SM2EKM
---
On 2011-12-04 20:14, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft wrote:
This is an issue that has been reported for years on a wide range of
radios from all of the manufacturers, with conflicting reports pro/con
on
How about ALL of them. It's not really solved transparent to operator
smarts on ANYBODY'S RX.73, Guy.
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Jan Erik Holm sm2...@bdtv.se wrote:
Could be interesting if you could name at least a few
of these radios?
/SM2EKM
---
On 2011-12-04 20:14, Eric
We actually have a 'pile-up' generator we designed that sends multiple
cw signals. So far it has not reproduced the issue here.
What is the signal spacing you are hearing this with? All -exactly- on
the same freq? Or spread out?
73, Eric
_..._
On 12/4/2011 12:20 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
Interesting.
Just a thought:
To rule out or identify hardware problems, I wonder if someone with
mush problem would be willing to loan Elecraft the offending rig?
I wonder just how exactly on frequency guys calling from spots really
are? Spots are quantized in 0.1 KHz steps. Many radios are
It is not on the same frequency problem, however signals
are quite close together but it´s difficult to say exactly
how close.
The thing is that the signal package has to be weak enough,
lets say in the S4-S6 region, if you make the same signal
package stronger the problem will go away.
I would
I start noticing it with more than 4 or so stations calling and with all
within the passband of the filter in use, so if I have the 400HZ filter
in and DSP set for 400 the callers can be up to almost 400hz apart,
I have heard it with the 1.0 filter as well.
At first I thought it may have been due
Eric, thinking on this a little more, when you are testing there with
the pile
up generator do you have real antenna noise also on the radio?
I just checked on 20 meters for example and my noise is flickering S-3
almost the same level as the signals would be in the pile up when this
problem
Merv,
Does the mush disappear or noticeably decrease if you switch to a much
wider bandwidth roofer (1800 Hz or more), while keeping the DSP's bandwidth
set at 400 Hz or less?
73,
Geoff
LX2AO (aka GM4ESD)
Merv Schweigert wrote on 04/12/2011 at 23:51 +0100:
I start noticing it with more
For me, the RF gain setting has a dramatic effect on the character of
received signals. I rarely set it higher than about the two o'clock
position.
Any idea of the RF gain setting while experiencing this 'mush'?
73, Dale
WA8SRA
On 12/4/2011 3:20 PM, Jan Erik Holm wrote:
This is exactly what
Yep my RF gain for the high bands is usually about 1 to 2 o'clock at most,
low bands with more static its much lower of course in the 10 to 11 most
times.
My noise level on high bands is S1 to flickering S2, 20 meters on good
opening
is S3.. I have an idea many will never hear the problem due
It isn't an individual rig problem, and if everyone who has noticed the
problem sent their rig back Elecraft wouldn't get anything else done. I
think recreating the conditions is the relevant issue ... not variation
from rig to rig.
It isn't difficult to figure out how close the signals need
David Gilbert wrote:
Here's a point that I think a lot of people are missing, though ...
the
signals need to be pretty weak. As someone else recently mentioned,
the
problem doesn't occur on strong signals. If you have a high ambient
noise level you may never even have the opportunity
When I experience the problem the signals are all quite close ...
probably within a 30 Hz window, but not exactly the same. My hearing
isn't as good as it was when I was younger (mostly high frequency loss
above 10 KHz), but I can tell when signals are exactly the same and if
that was the
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