Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
These tutorial meetings could be organized locally by clubs or groups of users on an ad hoc basis. Good documentation is still needed though as many live in distant parts and the class just held will do the fellow who purchases two months later no good at all. Documentation is always there to reference. The good people at Elecraft are then in a tough spot because they improve the K3 and then need to look to documentation updating, which is not a trivial task especially if properly indexed and cross referenced. I find myself in sympathy both with Elecraft and those who would like improved documentation. I probably will purchase a new manual this summer for though I can print one out with ease; a properly bound manual is a worthwhile convenience to me. Though a fond user of Kindle, I am not enamored of reading material from a computer screen and of course I can print it but that manual is a great help for quickly finding information in. I hope the people in Elecraft do not feel that they are being beaten on over this issue. I think it clear that they have a most loyal and very largely satisfied customer base who are salesmen for their product. This is not to say that we are not all striving and seeking more for this approach brings progress. Thank you Elecraft! 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of eric manning Sent: 08 December 2010 05:51 To: samuel ernst-fortin Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation) Samuel E-F said: Buy a radio, attend a quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Not crazy at all! Could also be held at Pacificon etc as one part of a K3 operators get-together. [Which I'd very much like to attend, BTW.] Why is essential; what and how are not enough. Eric VA7DZ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
and narrow. As if an additional usage guide, technical white paper series or instructional DVDs weren't enough suggestions... let me stir one more time... how about an Elecraft Remote Learning Series or Courseware via the Web? Buy a radio, attend a quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Got a lot of members? Set up a computer and projector at someone's home... throw in some pizza and beverages of choice. Maybe even try some hands-on exercises. Everybody gets to learn about the latest and greatest features and hints, tips and tricks of operating the rig presented by the gurus... those pushing the envelope of it's capabilities. Besides Manual as sales vehicle. Yes, yes. It most certainly is...there are MORE ways you can bring additional value to and for the K3 community present and future... From: Sam Morgank5oai@gmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.netelecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 2:17:13 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation) one thing that would also help.. when folks explain their process, how they got there, and what their setting are. they really must include the relavent settings for AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S with out these as a reference point what ever comments are made are so general as to mean very little to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the SX-28 Method I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury. We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute for just using it and gaining experience. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
I agree fully Joe. Also no matter how well written, illustrated, etc the manual may be, it is worthless if the user doesn't study it in detail to learn all the features of the equipment. Many never look at the manual, just ask a question on a reflector. Jim K4JAF - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was;(More Thorough Documentation) Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it predominately comesfrom using the equipment. That is true. In some respects, what is forgotten there is that some of you, probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal knowledge of being there early when it was first introduced and having been through the iterative process of refinement and feature extension. Maybe you remember the passionate pleas on the reflector and the responses from the Elecraft team and other users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user community. You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled up over some period of time. You know better why things are the way they are and what you can do with those things. I need to disagree with the emotion expressed here. While having been present early on may provide some insight into *why* things are as they are, it *in no way* provides any added insight into *how* things work or the best way to use the available tools in the K3. Just as an old-time DXer can tall the new kid on the block that some stations work split nobody can provide a newly minted no- code Extra knowledge and skill to actually copy the DX station so he knows who the station worked, find that station in the pile-up, learn the DX's operating habits - is he taking tail- enders on his listening frequency, is he moving by a fixed step between callers, is he moving at random, etc. Nobody can teach someone who doesn't know how to zero beat how to zero beat ... all of those things are SKILLS learned from doing not reading a book. The old joke: Q - how do I get to Carnegie Hall? A - Practice, Practice, Practice! Is never more true than with any advanced transceiver. The manual can provide (and the K3 manual does) the details of what a control does but it can not and should not be expected to anticipate every possible way and circumstance under which a control might be used. The I don't need to practice, I just bought this expensive Stradivarius, it should make me a star attitude is pervasive in society today ... even to those who think that failures in the education system can't be due to the student who will not pay attention or study but must be due to teachers who are failing to teach. Even a poorly written equipment manual (and Elecraft's are by no means poorly written) generally has enough information to operate the equipment. No matter how simple or complex the equipment, it is up to the user to learn how to use the equipment, it is not the job of the equipment, manufacturer, or dealer to think for the user. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/7/2010 7:47 PM, samuel ernst-fortin wrote: Another Sam wrote: When folks explain their process. Ahh yes, well written. Another part of adding value is to describe technique with what is available. Strategies. Usage Scenarios. Methodology. Why something exists, not just the what. Communicating intent is often omitted and it's importance underestimated... When someone understands the why, all of a sudden the light-bulbs illuminate. Prescriptive information is good for somethings. Have you ever dealt with a Helpdesk for some product and know you were working with someone that was walking down a trouble-shooting checklist? And you know you know more about the issue and want to short circuit that avenue? You assess early on they only know the product at a prescriptive level? On the other hand, having an grasp of the descriptive is quite a different story and presents the ahh-haa moments that allows people to take things apart (mentally) and put them back together in ways you didn't anticipate. They begin to see relationships and different paths from where they are, to where they want to go. Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it predominately comes from using the equipment. That is true. In some respects, what is forgotten there is that some of you, probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal knowledge of being there early when it was first introduced and having been through the iterative process of refinement and feature extension. Maybe you remember the passionate pleas on the reflector and the responses from the Elecraft team and other users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user community. You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled up over some period of time. You know better
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
Hmmm ... I can't speak to Another Don's sales conjecture, but I don't think basic tech writing skill is the root problem of this discussion. If I know what I'm looking for, I usually find it in the downloadable PDF manual most of the time, and it is clearly written. Nearly always, when I can't find it, it's because it is a recent addition/change and the PDF manual just can't keep up. On the bright side, many of the more recent firmware upgrades have concentrated on one narrow feature set or support for a specific hardware module, and simply pasting the relevant part of the release notes into my station journal gives me a running update to the PDF manual. I think the main issue hinges on the difference between, What can I do with a specific feature [like APF] and how do I do it? and I need to separate a discernible but unreadable signal from the noise, how do I combine the various features to achieve that goal? A professional tech writer, whose work I admire, once told me the first was very hard but doable. The second was just about impossible, although a lot of the discussion on this list seems to be at least aimed toward it. I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the SX-28 Method I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury. We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute for just using it and gaining experience. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011 - www.cqp.org On 12/7/2010 8:52 AM, Don Cunningham wrote: Don, I wager you are underestimating. I would bet the number of additional sales would be 1,000+, HEAVY on the plus. Also I fear that MANY people monitor the noise on this list and go on to other radios after monitoring for only a short time. 73, Another Don, WB5HAK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
one thing that would also help.. when folks explain their process, how they got there, and what their setting are. they really must include the relavent settings for AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S with out these as a reference point what ever comments are made are so general as to mean very little to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the SX-28 Method I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury. We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute for just using it and gaining experience. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
Another Sam wrote: When folks explain their process. Ahh yes, well written. Another part of adding value is to describe technique with what is available. Strategies. Usage Scenarios. Methodology. Why something exists, not just the what. Communicating intent is often omitted and it's importance underestimated... When someone understands the why, all of a sudden the light-bulbs illuminate. Prescriptive information is good for somethings. Have you ever dealt with a Helpdesk for some product and know you were working with someone that was walking down a trouble-shooting checklist? And you know you know more about the issue and want to short circuit that avenue? You assess early on they only know the product at a prescriptive level? On the other hand, having an grasp of the descriptive is quite a different story and presents the ahh-haa moments that allows people to take things apart (mentally) and put them back together in ways you didn't anticipate. They begin to see relationships and different paths from where they are, to where they want to go. Someone else argued that to become an expert with the K3, it predominately comes from using the equipment. That is true. In some respects, what is forgotten there is that some of you, probably many of you have benefitted from the tribal knowledge of being there early when it was first introduced and having been through the iterative process of refinement and feature extension. Maybe you remember the passionate pleas on the reflector and the responses from the Elecraft team and other users - that they'd bring more greatness to the user community. You probably don't need a manual. Your mental model got spooled up over some period of time. You know better why things are the way they are an what you can do with those things. But asking someone to search the reflector to come to that level of understanding and appreciation - would be ineffective. There are those considering the rig, or coming fairly late to the party that don't have this history. They aren't cognitively loaded when they sit down in front of the rig with that model. They are not likely to be able to contribute more and something fresh and innovative unless you can bring them to speed. Their knowledge is shallow and narrow. As if an additional usage guide, technical white paper series or instructional DVDs weren't enough suggestions... let me stir one more time... how about an Elecraft Remote Learning Series or Courseware via the Web? Buy a radio, attend a quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Got a lot of members? Set up a computer and projector at someone's home... throw in some pizza and beverages of choice. Maybe even try some hands-on exercises. Everybody gets to learn about the latest and greatest features and hints, tips and tricks of operating the rig presented by the gurus... those pushing the envelope of it's capabilities. Besides Manual as sales vehicle. Yes, yes. It most certainly is...there are MORE ways you can bring additional value to and for the K3 community present and future... From: Sam Morgan k5oai@gmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 2:17:13 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation) one thing that would also help.. when folks explain their process, how they got there, and what their setting are. they really must include the relavent settings for AGC DCY, AGC HLD, AGC PLS, AGC SLP, AGC THR, AGC-F and AGC-S with out these as a reference point what ever comments are made are so general as to mean very little to anyone wishing to try to duplicate those results GB 73 K5OAI Sam Morgan On 12/7/2010 12:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: I run my K3 with AGC on [usually fast for CW, slow for SSB], RF Gain at max, and I've been very pleased by it's performance. When I still had my TS-850, I tried some A/B comparisons and signals I might just discern on the 850, I could get fairly good copy on with the K3. Following some of the discussions recently, I've experimented with what I call the SX-28 Method I used nearly a lifetime ago ... AGC off, AF max, ride the RF gain. I tried it in the Spartan Sprint last night on 40m, when all of the signals were very weak ... so far, I think it is a hung jury. We'll see. In the end, it appears to me that there is no substitute for just using it and gaining experience. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft
Re: [Elecraft] K3 Need for advice was; (More Thorough Documentation)
Samuel E-F said: Buy a radio, attend a quarterly held two or three day class presented by the designers on advanced topics? OK, maybe it's a four-hour class. :) Crazy Huh? Not crazy at all! Could also be held at Pacificon etc as one part of a K3 operators get-together. [Which I'd very much like to attend, BTW.] Why is essential; what and how are not enough. Eric VA7DZ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
