Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Guys, let's take the dBc discussion off list.

73,

Eric
Mooderator
/elecraft.com/

On 10/19/2016 6:35 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

On 10/19/2016 2:11 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

The "carrier" reference for other modulation is the peak of the
envelope.


Which means your dBc references should be labelled "dB PEP" for
the particular modulation.  The reference to dBc is only strictly
accurate for the unmodulated carrier and possibly CW.

Unless you are using  known modulation (e.g., 2 tone for SSB, "idle"
for PSK31) there is no simple PEP to carrier reference.

73,
   ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 10/19/2016 2:11 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

The "carrier" reference for other modulation is the peak of the
envelope.


Which means your dBc references should be labelled "dB PEP" for
the particular modulation.  The reference to dBc is only strictly
accurate for the unmodulated carrier and possibly CW.

Unless you are using  known modulation (e.g., 2 tone for SSB, "idle"
for PSK31) there is no simple PEP to carrier reference.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Brown]

Gee, I thought I did. I told you how I made the measurements. Every data 
point was picked off of the curves with the cursor. The SSB data is 
relative to the highest peak in the envelope, not to the carrier, of 
course, which is suppressed. The "carrier" reference for other 
modulation is the peak of the envelope.


73, Jim

On Tue,10/18/2016 7:38 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
You didn't answer the question. 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

You didn't answer the question.

On 10/18/2016 4:47 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
The data is accumulated peaks for 30-40 seconds. Reference for dBC is the peak 
of the waveform. That terminology is not appropriate, of course, for the SSB 
data.


73, Jim

On Tue,10/18/2016 12:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
What method(s) did you use to verify the accuracy of your dB(c) numbers?  I 
get a little queasy when I see "-48.5 dBc."


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Leonard N0CU]

The official response I got from the factory is that to have any of the IMD
mods done, the radio needs to be sent in to the factory.

Bill  N0CU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi Gene,

The K3S was definitely a random production unit. The failure was quite unusual 
as it was an intermittent solder connection in that particular LPF. We rarely 
see that in this area on our professionally assembled and inspected boards. It 
must have been intermittent as it passed our automated board level and final K3S 
tests.


As a double check we tightened our visual inspection of that area of the board 
and reviewed our test procedures. So far no other failures like this one found.


73,
Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 10/18/2016 2:51 PM, n...@comcast.net wrote:

Hi Eric,
Just curious/devils advocate question. Was this unit that was reviewed, picked 
at random from stock at Elecraft? If so, or not, wouldn't it's performance be 
reflective of a population of other units manufactured? Just curious how you 
can say all others shipped were/are OK on 17, when the review unit was not?
   
Just asking.
   
Also curious, when radios are factory built and aligned, does Elecraft keep some kind of history data base of performance measurements of hose radios. kind od like a Certificate of Analysis/Performance, of specifications?
   
Thanks and 73, Gene N9TF

K3S 10057

- Original Message -

From: "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft" <e...@elecraft.com>
To: "Jim Rogers" <jim.w4...@gmail.com>, "elecraft" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

Hi Jim - The 17 m harmonic problem was limited to the single review unit, which
we corrected. All others shipped were/are OK on 17M.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 10/18/2016 11:38 AM, Jim Rogers wrote:

To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others

"During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters
measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we
measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for
repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant ARRL
Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar.

Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB below
carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters).

Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the necessary
board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more than happy to make
the replacement in my K3s and return the defective units to Elecraft for
rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio back for something I can
accomplish in the field.

I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which
originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s rather
than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not need repair
to meet the spec and I am a happy camper.

Jim, W4ATK




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

And by the way, it *was* picked at random, in effect; we had no idea who 
purchased the unit, or when, until the ARRL gave us their first set of numbers.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, n...@comcast.net wrote:

> Hi Eric, 
> Just curious/devils advocate question. Was this unit that was reviewed, 
> picked at random from stock at Elecraft? If so, or not, wouldn't it's 
> performance be reflective of a population of other units manufactured? Just 
> curious how you can say all others shipped were/are OK on 17, when the review 
> unit was not? 
>   
> Just asking. 
>   
> Also curious, when radios are factory built and aligned, does Elecraft keep 
> some kind of history data base of performance measurements of hose radios. 
> kind od like a Certificate of Analysis/Performance, of specifications? 
>   
> Thanks and 73, Gene N9TF 
> K3S 10057 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft" <e...@elecraft.com> 
> To: "Jim Rogers" <jim.w4...@gmail.com>, "elecraft" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:10:17 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article 
> 
> Hi Jim - The 17 m harmonic problem was limited to the single review unit, 
> which 
> we corrected. All others shipped were/are OK on 17M. 
> 
> 73, 
> 
> Eric 
> /elecraft.com/ 
> 
> On 10/18/2016 11:38 AM, Jim Rogers wrote: 
>> To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others 
>> 
>> "During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters 
>> measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we 
>> measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for 
>> repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant ARRL 
>> Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar. 
>> 
>> Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB below 
>> carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters). 
>> 
>> Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the necessary 
>> board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more than happy to 
>> make 
>> the replacement in my K3s and return the defective units to Elecraft for 
>> rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio back for something I can 
>> accomplish in the field. 
>> 
>> I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which 
>> originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s 
>> rather 
>> than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not need repair 
>> to meet the spec and I am a happy camper. 
>> 
>> Jim, W4ATK 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __ 
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>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm 
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
>> Message delivered to eric.swa...@elecraft.com 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

It certainly left the factory working on 17 meters, because we do a 100% test 
on all bands for TX harmonic suppression. My working theory is that the unit 
was damaged in shipping. We may never know.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Oct 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, n...@comcast.net wrote:

> Hi Eric, 
> Just curious/devils advocate question. Was this unit that was reviewed, 
> picked at random from stock at Elecraft? If so, or not, wouldn't it's 
> performance be reflective of a population of other units manufactured? Just 
> curious how you can say all others shipped were/are OK on 17, when the review 
> unit was not? 
>   
> Just asking. 
>   
> Also curious, when radios are factory built and aligned, does Elecraft keep 
> some kind of history data base of performance measurements of hose radios. 
> kind od like a Certificate of Analysis/Performance, of specifications? 
>   
> Thanks and 73, Gene N9TF 
> K3S 10057 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft" <e...@elecraft.com> 
> To: "Jim Rogers" <jim.w4...@gmail.com>, "elecraft" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:10:17 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article 
> 
> Hi Jim - The 17 m harmonic problem was limited to the single review unit, 
> which 
> we corrected. All others shipped were/are OK on 17M. 
> 
> 73, 
> 
> Eric 
> /elecraft.com/ 
> 
> On 10/18/2016 11:38 AM, Jim Rogers wrote: 
>> To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others 
>> 
>> "During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters 
>> measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we 
>> measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for 
>> repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant ARRL 
>> Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar. 
>> 
>> Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB below 
>> carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters). 
>> 
>> Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the necessary 
>> board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more than happy to 
>> make 
>> the replacement in my K3s and return the defective units to Elecraft for 
>> rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio back for something I can 
>> accomplish in the field. 
>> 
>> I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which 
>> originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s 
>> rather 
>> than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not need repair 
>> to meet the spec and I am a happy camper. 
>> 
>> Jim, W4ATK 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __ 
>> Elecraft mailing list 
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm 
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
>> Message delivered to eric.swa...@elecraft.com 
>> 
> 
> __ 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Brown]

The data is accumulated peaks for 30-40 seconds. Reference for dBC is 
the peak of the waveform. That terminology is not appropriate, of 
course, for the SSB data.


73, Jim

On Tue,10/18/2016 12:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
What method(s) did you use to verify the accuracy of your dB(c) 
numbers?  I get a little queasy when I see "-48.5 dBc."



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Kevin]

That's harmonics which the FCC regulates to -43 dBc or better, better 
being a bigger number, on 160-10m, and -60dBc for 6 meters and up. That 
number IS regulated.


That is not the same as two tone TX IMD which is specified by Elecraft 
as around -30dB, and NOT regulated by the FCC, because most hams can't 
measure it accurately.



On 10/18/2016 2:53 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
What method(s) did you use to verify the accuracy of your dB(c) 
numbers?  I get a little queasy when I see "-48.5 dBc."


On 10/18/2016 10:51 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Tue,10/18/2016 3:43 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:

How fast does IMD deteriorate with increased power from the K3S or K3?

What are the IMD figures when running 20-25W driving a linear amp. 
such as

the KPA500?


I've looked carefully at this, and so has my neighbor Bob Wolbert, 
K6XX, who is an engineer at Elecraft and a serious contester. The 
first link shows my measurements, the second is a pdf of the slides 
for a talk that K6XX gave to NCCC three years ago. It includes 
measured data showing how TX power out and DC voltage affect IMD.  In 
my measurements, increased IMD causes CW bandwidth to increase. You 
can see that difference by comparing measurements at 30W, 50W, and 100W.


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf

73, Jim K9YC


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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[n9tf]

Hi Eric, 
Just curious/devils advocate question. Was this unit that was reviewed, picked 
at random from stock at Elecraft? If so, or not, wouldn't it's performance be 
reflective of a population of other units manufactured? Just curious how you 
can say all others shipped were/are OK on 17, when the review unit was not? 
  
Just asking. 
  
Also curious, when radios are factory built and aligned, does Elecraft keep 
some kind of history data base of performance measurements of hose radios. kind 
od like a Certificate of Analysis/Performance, of specifications? 
  
Thanks and 73, Gene N9TF 
K3S 10057 

- Original Message -

From: "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft" <e...@elecraft.com> 
To: "Jim Rogers" <jim.w4...@gmail.com>, "elecraft" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net> 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2016 2:10:17 PM 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article 

Hi Jim - The 17 m harmonic problem was limited to the single review unit, which 
we corrected. All others shipped were/are OK on 17M. 

73, 

Eric 
/elecraft.com/ 

On 10/18/2016 11:38 AM, Jim Rogers wrote: 
> To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others 
> 
> "During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters 
> measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we 
> measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for 
> repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant ARRL 
> Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar. 
> 
> Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB below 
> carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters). 
> 
> Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the necessary 
> board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more than happy to 
> make 
> the replacement in my K3s and return the defective units to Elecraft for 
> rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio back for something I can 
> accomplish in the field. 
> 
> I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which 
> originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s rather 
> than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not need repair 
> to meet the spec and I am a happy camper. 
> 
> Jim, W4ATK 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ 
> Elecraft mailing list 
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft 
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm 
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net 
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
> Message delivered to eric.swa...@elecraft.com 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

What method(s) did you use to verify the accuracy of your dB(c) numbers?  I get 
a little queasy when I see "-48.5 dBc."


On 10/18/2016 10:51 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Tue,10/18/2016 3:43 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:

How fast does IMD deteriorate with increased power from the K3S or K3?

What are the IMD figures when running 20-25W driving a linear amp. such as
the KPA500?


I've looked carefully at this, and so has my neighbor Bob Wolbert, K6XX, who 
is an engineer at Elecraft and a serious contester. The first link shows my 
measurements, the second is a pdf of the slides for a talk that K6XX gave to 
NCCC three years ago. It includes measured data showing how TX power out and 
DC voltage affect IMD.  In my measurements, increased IMD causes CW bandwidth 
to increase. You can see that difference by comparing measurements at 30W, 
50W, and 100W.


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Rogers]

I have received a response to my posts from Eric and understand that the 
17M harmonic problem I was concerned about was limited to the test unit 
supplied to ARRL.


I am a happy camper!

Jim, W4ATK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

Many thanks for sharing this Jim.

Very ambitious and informative.

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 5:51 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> On Tue,10/18/2016 3:43 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:
>
>> How fast does IMD deteriorate with increased power from the K3S or K3?
>>
>> What are the IMD figures when running 20-25W driving a linear amp. such as
>> the KPA500?
>>
>
> I've looked carefully at this, and so has my neighbor Bob Wolbert, K6XX,
> who is an engineer at Elecraft and a serious contester. The first link
> shows my measurements, the second is a pdf of the slides for a talk that
> K6XX gave to NCCC three years ago. It includes measured data showing how TX
> power out and DC voltage affect IMD.  In my measurements, increased IMD
> causes CW bandwidth to increase. You can see that difference by comparing
> measurements at 30W, 50W, and 100W.
>
> http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf
>
> http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi Jim - The 17 m harmonic problem was limited to the single review unit, which 
we corrected. All others shipped were/are OK on 17M.


73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 10/18/2016 11:38 AM, Jim Rogers wrote:

To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others

"During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters 
measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we 
measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for 
repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant ARRL 
Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar.


Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB below 
carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters).


Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the necessary 
board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more than happy to make 
the replacement in my K3s and return the defective units to Elecraft for 
rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio back for something I can 
accomplish in the field.


I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which 
originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s rather 
than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not need repair 
to meet the spec and I am a happy camper.


Jim, W4ATK




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Rogers]

To all who responded, certainly my friend Don and others

"During initial testing, we found that the second harmonic on 17 meters 
measured 42 dB below the fundamental, well below the specified >50 dB we 
measured on the other bands. We returned the transceiver to Elecraft for 
repair and they brought it into spec." Bob Allison, WB1GCM Assistant 
ARRL Laboratory Manager, QST (Nov 2016) p.50 sidebar.


Elecraft K3s Operators manual pg. 9 "Harmonic Spurious Outputs >50 dB 
below carrier @ 100W (>60 dB on 6 meters).


Just sayin' if that is the case with my K3s s/n 10271, send me the 
necessary board/module(s) to correct the situation and I will be more 
than happy to make the replacement in my K3s and return the defective 
units to Elecraft for rework. Just don't ask me to send the whole radio 
back for something I can accomplish in the field.


I am not angry, perhaps a bit dissappointed.  I love my K-Line, which 
originated with a K3 and when the K3s came out, I elected to buy a K3s 
rather than upgrade my K3. Tell me my radio meets the spec and does not 
need repair to meet the spec and I am a happy camper.


Jim, W4ATK




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Brown]

Like Bill, I operate with several other hams for Field Day, CQP, 7QP 
(7th Area QSO Party), and VHF grid trips. Field Day is a single K3 for 
HF and a KX3 for the VHF station. We run 1A battery/solar. CQP and 7QP 
are multi-transmitter, K3/P3SVGA/KPA500 and run from Honda 2000i 
generators. These very nice generators DO produce some noise, and need a 
serious common mode choke on their output if they are close to antennas. 
(We operate from very quiet places in the middle of nowhere). When 
running power, we have double stubs on the output of the KPA500s feeding 
antennas for 80CW and 40CW, where the harmonics land on the next higher 
band.  There are photos of our setup from 7QP at k9yc.com/7QP.pdf


73, Jim K9YC

 On Tue,10/18/2016 6:04 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
Since June, my K3 went out for the California QSO Party (CQP), a 
special event station from Ely NV, and field day. Field day and CQP 
were solar powered battery. 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,10/18/2016 3:43 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:

How fast does IMD deteriorate with increased power from the K3S or K3?

What are the IMD figures when running 20-25W driving a linear amp. such as
the KPA500?


I've looked carefully at this, and so has my neighbor Bob Wolbert, K6XX, 
who is an engineer at Elecraft and a serious contester. The first link 
shows my measurements, the second is a pdf of the slides for a talk that 
K6XX gave to NCCC three years ago. It includes measured data showing how 
TX power out and DC voltage affect IMD.  In my measurements, increased 
IMD causes CW bandwidth to increase. You can see that difference by 
comparing measurements at 30W, 50W, and 100W.


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

http://k9yc.com/K6XXAmpTalk.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

We sent an earlier posting showing which serial numbers already had the new 
upgrades:

   KPA3A upgrade incorporated starting with serial number:

   Factory assembled:  s/n 10852
   Kit:s/n 10864

   LPA module upgrade incorporated starting with serial number:

   Factory assembled:  s/n 10920
   Kit:s/n 10939

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 18, 2016, at 7:52 AM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> If the serial number is 10939 or greater, the change has already been 
> installed.
> At slightly lower serial numbers (10852 and above) it may or may not have 
> been installed - it depends on whether it is a kit or factory assembly and 
> whether it is a K3S/10 or K3S/100.
> If you are in the 'questionable' serial number range, contact Elecraft 
> support for detailed information.
> If below S/N 10852, the change has not been installed.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 10/18/2016 10:29 AM, Bob Steding wrote:
>> Is this there a SN after which these upgrades are automatically included in
>> all K3S's?
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[WILLIE BABER]

I like the size and weight of K3 also.  K3 fits right underneath the seat in 
front of you as a carry on, and K3 is as good or better than an Orion or 
FT-5000 that will not fit in there, hi!  What other contest radio can do this?  

Elecraft K2/100.  Yes, you can build it with the separate receive antenna and 
with computer control of the radio.

Of course K3 has other advantages, like diversity receive which is routine at 
n2cei 160m station in FL.  Plus there is a second K3 for S & P of mults.  This 
requires the K3 lock-out feature so that only one K3 is transmitting.

And there is remote control.  This year in CQ 160m contest  I couldn't make the 
trip to FL so the n2cei group sent to me the other half of the remote gear and 
I operated my leg of n2cei M/M 160m anyway, from Idaho.

Cool.

73, Will, wj9b, ID
occasional multi- op at big-gun ny4a NC and 160m superstation n2cei FL

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/


On Tue, 10/18/16, Bill Frantz <fra...@pwpconsult.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article
 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2016, 7:04 AM
 
 Since June, my K3 went
 out for the California QSO Party (CQP), a 
 special event station from Ely NV, and field
 day. Field day and 
 CQP were solar powered
 battery. The Ely event ended up being 
 battery because the generator was putting out
 S9 noise. The 
 field day was QRP while CQP
 and Ely were at 100W. Being able to 
 drop
 back to battery saved our bacon in Ely. For all these 
 events, and in the shack, I am very glad to
 have a radio with 
 the ease of use of the
 K3, which IMHO, is better than my KX3.
 
 On 10/17/16 at 4:47 PM, ksto...@ac0h.net
 (Kevin) wrote:
 
 >How many
 people take their K3(s) out in the 
 >sticks...ever...save Field Day?
 ---
 Bill Frantz        | Can't fix stupid,
 but duct   | Periwinkle
 (408)356-8506      | tape can muffle the
 sound... | 16345 
 Englewood Ave
 www.pwpconsult.com |           
    - Bill Liebman | Los Gatos, 
 CA 95032
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Don Wilhelm]

If the serial number is 10939 or greater, the change has already been 
installed.
At slightly lower serial numbers (10852 and above) it may or may not 
have been installed - it depends on whether it is a kit or factory 
assembly and whether it is a K3S/10 or K3S/100.
If you are in the 'questionable' serial number range, contact Elecraft 
support for detailed information.

If below S/N 10852, the change has not been installed.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/18/2016 10:29 AM, Bob Steding wrote:

Is this there a SN after which these upgrades are automatically included in
all K3S's?


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bob Steding]

Is this there a SN after which these upgrades are automatically included in
all K3S's?

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Jan Erik Holm  wrote:

> Wayne,
>
> Is there a way to do this " at home" ? Since I´m in Sweden
> it might not be practical to send the radio all the way to
> California for this.
>
> 73 Jim SM2EKM
> --
> On 2016-10-17 02:25, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>
>> Knut,
>>
>> The K3S as originally shipped does not have a design flaw. Like virtually
>> all 12-V-class transceivers using currently available MOSFETs, it was
>> already right around -30 dBc or better, worst-case, for 3rd-order IMD. We
>> simply found a way to make it better by a few dB, and we're offering to
>> make this upgrade at no charge.
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 10/17/2016 8:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:


What would be a practical way to actually introduce such a change? Lay out
all the specifics involved. Let's see your critical path item by item plan.
It's cheep and easy to just blurt out "they oughta go to 28 volts."


Provide an *optional* 28V PA that would drop into the existing space.
If heat and/or maximum gain are an issue, it does not need to be
specified for 200 W output ... 150/160 is good enough.

As to power supplies, Yaesu had a dual voltage switching supply for
the FT-1000MP MK V for many years.  A "KPA4" could certainly have its
own 28V connection to avoid changes to the K3/K3S (the present design
keeps 13.8V on the PA all the time).

Once one has a 28V option, the K3/K3S controller can be modified to
limit power from the 12V KPA3A/KPA3B to 80 watts max which should
further decrease IMD by keeping the FETs out of compression.  Most
published power transistor/FET data sheets show a sweet spot for
IMD at around 60 - 80% of the CW ratings.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Frantz]

Since June, my K3 went out for the California QSO Party (CQP), a 
special event station from Ely NV, and field day. Field day and 
CQP were solar powered battery. The Ely event ended up being 
battery because the generator was putting out S9 noise. The 
field day was QRP while CQP and Ely were at 100W. Being able to 
drop back to battery saved our bacon in Ely. For all these 
events, and in the shack, I am very glad to have a radio with 
the ease of use of the K3, which IMHO, is better than my KX3.


On 10/17/16 at 4:47 PM, ksto...@ac0h.net (Kevin) wrote:

How many people take their K3(s) out in the 
sticks...ever...save Field Day?

---
Bill Frantz| Can't fix stupid, but duct   | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | tape can muffle the sound... | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |   - Bill Liebman | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

This is an interesting thread but I wonder about the practicalities... Of
course we all want to emit a clean signal.

In which cases might the IMD be a problem? Running full power off a battery
with voltage dropping?
Running almost full power to drive an older type tube amp?

How fast does IMD deteriorate with increased power from the K3S or K3?

What are the IMD figures when running 20-25W driving a linear amp. such as
the KPA500?

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 7:58 AM, David Gilbert 
wrote:

>
> 1.  W4ATK seems overly indignant about a "compliance" spec he doesn't even
> understand.
>
> 2.  And while I've been a bit chagrined about it myself in the past,
> anybody who doesn't understand that Elecraft's chosen business model is
> centered around portable gear (which includes motor home and cabin
> operations as opposed to just backpacking) hasn't been paying attention for
> the last 20 years.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
> On 10/17/2016 4:47 PM, Kevin wrote:
>
>> Hmm, compliance with what? The rig meets Elecraft specs and since the FCC
>> doesn't regulate TX IMD there is nothing to comply with.
>>
>> The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because
>> everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do
>> better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the
>> desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the K3(s)
>> is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their K3(s) out in
>> the sticks...ever...save Field Day?
>>
>> Just because it has a carry strap doesn't mean it's a portable rig. My
>> TS-520 has a beautiful leather strap. It weighs 37 pounds. Anybody know
>> where I can rent a mule?
>>
>>
>> On 10/17/2016 3:41 PM, Jim Rogers wrote:
>>
>>> I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be
>>> somewhat similar to the VW diesel problem.
>>>
>>> Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with
>>> specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden
>>> of time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be
>>> in compliance, into compliance.
>>>
>>> I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards,
>>> modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you
>>> the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the defective
>>> boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort of
>>> disassembly and re-assembly.
>>>
>>> Jim, W4ATK
>>>
>>> K-line, K2
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[David Gilbert]

1.  W4ATK seems overly indignant about a "compliance" spec he doesn't 
even understand.


2.  And while I've been a bit chagrined about it myself in the past, 
anybody who doesn't understand that Elecraft's chosen business model is 
centered around portable gear (which includes motor home and cabin 
operations as opposed to just backpacking) hasn't been paying attention 
for the last 20 years.


Dave   AB7E



On 10/17/2016 4:47 PM, Kevin wrote:
Hmm, compliance with what? The rig meets Elecraft specs and since the 
FCC doesn't regulate TX IMD there is nothing to comply with.


The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just 
because everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop 
trying to do better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS 
and switch the desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, 
yeah, I know, the K3(s) is supposed to be portable capable. How many 
people take their K3(s) out in the sticks...ever...save Field Day?


Just because it has a carry strap doesn't mean it's a portable rig. My 
TS-520 has a beautiful leather strap. It weighs 37 pounds. Anybody 
know where I can rent a mule?



On 10/17/2016 3:41 PM, Jim Rogers wrote:
I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be 
somewhat similar to the VW diesel problem.


Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with 
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the 
burden of time and expense to bring the device you specified and 
guaranteed to be in compliance, into compliance.


I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary 
boards, modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will 
return to you the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can 
rework the defective boards for the next exchange. I will spend the 
time and effort of disassembly and re-assembly.


Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Matt Murphy]

Thanks, Wayne. This thread has been very interesting!

73
Matt NQ6N/9

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Our entire product line emphasizes portability, so we'll just have to
> continue the never-ending search for 12 volt mojo. (Note: the new Upgrade
> is a case of this; IMD is improved when running from lower voltages.)
>
> Stick with Elecraft and minimize your carbon footprint!
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Kevin  wrote:
> >
> >> The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because
> >> everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do
> >> better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the
> >> desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the
> K3(s)
> >> is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their K3(s)
> out in
> >> the sticks...ever...save Field Day?
> >>
> >
> > Oh yeah.
> >
> > "Just" change the supply voltage. AND the PA. And would that much heat
> > dissipation even fit in the same space?  OK. Everybody ready to go out
> and
> > buy a 28 volt power supply for the new K3S? The range of 12 volt supplies
> > is way, way broader than 28 volt. The Astron LS35M  35A@28VDC is 380
> > dollars. Oh, a built-in? Where does it go in the case?
> >
> > And does the K3S add an internal inverter to produce 12V for everything
> > else from the 28V?
> >
> > Lot of expense for a small improvement that they can get with a freebee
> > change to a late developing gift improvement for the cost of shipping.
> >
> > What would be a practical way to actually introduce such a change? Lay
> out
> > all the specifics involved. Let's see your critical path item by item
> plan.
> > It's cheep and easy to just blurt out "they oughta go to 28 volts."
> >
> > 73, Guy K2AV
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

Our entire product line emphasizes portability, so we'll just have to continue 
the never-ending search for 12 volt mojo. (Note: the new Upgrade is a case of 
this; IMD is improved when running from lower voltages.)

Stick with Elecraft and minimize your carbon footprint!

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Oct 17, 2016, at 5:48 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Kevin  wrote:
> 
>> The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because
>> everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do
>> better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the
>> desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the K3(s)
>> is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their K3(s) out in
>> the sticks...ever...save Field Day?
>> 
> 
> Oh yeah.
> 
> "Just" change the supply voltage. AND the PA. And would that much heat
> dissipation even fit in the same space?  OK. Everybody ready to go out and
> buy a 28 volt power supply for the new K3S? The range of 12 volt supplies
> is way, way broader than 28 volt. The Astron LS35M  35A@28VDC is 380
> dollars. Oh, a built-in? Where does it go in the case?
> 
> And does the K3S add an internal inverter to produce 12V for everything
> else from the 28V?
> 
> Lot of expense for a small improvement that they can get with a freebee
> change to a late developing gift improvement for the cost of shipping.
> 
> What would be a practical way to actually introduce such a change? Lay out
> all the specifics involved. Let's see your critical path item by item plan.
> It's cheep and easy to just blurt out "they oughta go to 28 volts."
> 
> 73, Guy K2AV




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jan Erik Holm]

Wayne,

Is there a way to do this " at home" ? Since I´m in Sweden
it might not be practical to send the radio all the way to
California for this.

73 Jim SM2EKM
--
On 2016-10-17 02:25, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Knut,

The K3S as originally shipped does not have a design flaw. Like virtually all 
12-V-class transceivers using currently available MOSFETs, it was already right 
around -30 dBc or better, worst-case, for 3rd-order IMD. We simply found a way 
to make it better by a few dB, and we're offering to make this upgrade at no 
charge.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Kevin  wrote:

> The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because
> everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do
> better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the
> desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the K3(s)
> is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their K3(s) out in
> the sticks...ever...save Field Day?
>

Oh yeah.

"Just" change the supply voltage. AND the PA. And would that much heat
dissipation even fit in the same space?  OK. Everybody ready to go out and
buy a 28 volt power supply for the new K3S? The range of 12 volt supplies
is way, way broader than 28 volt. The Astron LS35M  35A@28VDC is 380
dollars. Oh, a built-in? Where does it go in the case?

And does the K3S add an internal inverter to produce 12V for everything
else from the 28V?

Lot of expense for a small improvement that they can get with a freebee
change to a late developing gift improvement for the cost of shipping.

What would be a practical way to actually introduce such a change? Lay out
all the specifics involved. Let's see your critical path item by item plan.
It's cheep and easy to just blurt out "they oughta go to 28 volts."

73, Guy K2AV
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Cox]

Well one of the main reasons I love my K3S is because of weight (or lack of 
it).  Due to back problems, I cant move that 40-50 pound rig to the bench to 
do any adjustments, repair, etc.
I can take my K3S to the beach house with ease and have a nice 100 watt 
radio.
Each of us has their own needs and wants in a radio and a 60 pound monster 
with 200 watts and built in power supply for 48 -60 volts, may not be one of 
them.  Jim K4JAF


-Original Message- 
From: Kevin

Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 6:47 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

Hmm, compliance with what? The rig meets Elecraft specs and since the
FCC doesn't regulate TX IMD there is nothing to comply with.

The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because
everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do
better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the
desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the
K3(s) is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their
K3(s) out in the sticks...ever...save Field Day?

Just because it has a carry strap doesn't mean it's a portable rig. My
TS-520 has a beautiful leather strap. It weighs 37 pounds. Anybody know
where I can rent a mule?


On 10/17/2016 3:41 PM, Jim Rogers wrote:
I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be 
somewhat similar to the VW diesel problem.


Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with 
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden 
of time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be 
in compliance, into compliance.


I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards, 
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you 
the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the 
defective boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort 
of disassembly and re-assembly.


Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Kevin]

Hmm, compliance with what? The rig meets Elecraft specs and since the 
FCC doesn't regulate TX IMD there is nothing to comply with.


The problem I have is accepting the status quo by Elecraft. Just because 
everybody else is around -30dB shouldn't mean Elecraft stop trying to do 
better. Let the portable/backpacking rigs use 12V MOSFETS and switch the 
desktop model K3(s) to higher voltage finals. Yeah, yeah, I know, the 
K3(s) is supposed to be portable capable. How many people take their 
K3(s) out in the sticks...ever...save Field Day?


Just because it has a carry strap doesn't mean it's a portable rig. My 
TS-520 has a beautiful leather strap. It weighs 37 pounds. Anybody know 
where I can rent a mule?



On 10/17/2016 3:41 PM, Jim Rogers wrote:
I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be 
somewhat similar to the VW diesel problem.


Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with 
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the 
burden of time and expense to bring the device you specified and 
guaranteed to be in compliance, into compliance.


I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards, 
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to 
you the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the 
defective boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and 
effort of disassembly and re-assembly.


Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Mark E. Musick]

Charlie,
You hit the nail on the head.

Mark Musick, WB9CIF

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
Charlie T, K3ICH
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 9:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

Now, I may be miss-interpreting what's happening here, but I feel is that
this whole thing is being taken "slightly" wrong by several people.

VW purposely faked the test to meet a gov't spec.

However, Elecraft sold a radio that DID meet their published specifications
for transmit IMD which are typical of other competitive radios on the
market.

THEN, they figured out a way to make an improvement, which makes them BETTER
than the typical radio for this parameter.
AND, they're willing to make the mod for free IF you handle shipping.

Believe me, the "big-three" would simply come out with a Mark II, or "A"
model and leave it at that.

And, every time I hear that they did in fact do just that, I'm that much
gladder (if that's a word) I have Elecraft's in the shack.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about. At which point I would offer a
retraction.
I have been known to stick my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Rogers
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 4:42 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be somewhat
similar to the VW diesel problem.

Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden of
time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be in
compliance, into compliance.

I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards,
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you
the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the defective
boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort of
disassembly and re-assembly.

Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[K9ZTV]

Jim,

Your new rig had nothing "defective."  It was "in compliance" when you bought 
it.  Subsequent to your buying it, that particular in-compliance specification 
has been improved.  There is nothing for Elecraft to fix because there is 
nothing broken.  No warranty extends to future improvements.  Be thankful 
Elecraft is offering that improvement at no charge. 

73,

Kent  K9ZTV

> On Oct 17, 2016, at 3:41 PM, Jim Rogers  wrote:
> 
> I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be somewhat 
> similar to the VW diesel problem.
> 
> Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with 
> specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden of 
> time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be in 
> compliance, into compliance.
> 
> I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards, 
> modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you 
> the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the defective 
> boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort of disassembly 
> and re-assembly.
> 
> Jim, W4ATK
> 
> K-line, K2
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Don Wilhelm]

Jim,

Elecraft sold you a K3S that *was* in compliance and will still be if 
you do nothing.  See Wayne's post yesterday.  They improved the Transmit 
IMD for the current K3S and are offering to make that change to older K3S.


They are going out of their way to add the change to your K3S free of 
labor charge - all you have to pay for is the shipping.


I think that is above and beyond the call of duty.  I have not heard of 
another ham manufacturer that would do anything like that.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/17/2016 4:41 PM, Jim Rogers wrote:


Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the
burden of time and expense to bring the device you specified and
guaranteed to be in compliance, into compliance.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Chortek Bob via Elecraft]

 blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px 
#715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white 
!important; }  Hear, Hear!
Bob/AA6VB 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, October 17, 2016, 4:03 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH <pin...@erols.com> wrote:

Now, I may be miss-interpreting what's happening here, but I feel is that
this whole thing is being taken "slightly" wrong by several people.

VW purposely faked the test to meet a gov't spec.

However, Elecraft sold a radio that DID meet their published specifications
for transmit IMD which are typical of other competitive radios on the
market.

THEN, they figured out a way to make an improvement, which makes them BETTER
than the typical radio for this parameter.
AND, they're willing to make the mod for free IF you handle shipping.

Believe me, the "big-three" would simply come out with a Mark II, or "A"
model and leave it at that.

And, every time I hear that they did in fact do just that, I'm that much
gladder (if that's a word) I have Elecraft's in the shack.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about. At which point I would offer a
retraction.
I have been known to stick my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Rogers
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 4:42 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be somewhat
similar to the VW diesel problem.

Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden of
time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be in
compliance, into compliance.

I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards,
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you
the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the defective
boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort of
disassembly and re-assembly.

Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

Now, I may be miss-interpreting what's happening here, but I feel is that
this whole thing is being taken "slightly" wrong by several people.

VW purposely faked the test to meet a gov't spec.

However, Elecraft sold a radio that DID meet their published specifications
for transmit IMD which are typical of other competitive radios on the
market.

THEN, they figured out a way to make an improvement, which makes them BETTER
than the typical radio for this parameter.
AND, they're willing to make the mod for free IF you handle shipping.

Believe me, the "big-three" would simply come out with a Mark II, or "A"
model and leave it at that.

And, every time I hear that they did in fact do just that, I'm that much
gladder (if that's a word) I have Elecraft's in the shack.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about. At which point I would offer a
retraction.
I have been known to stick my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Rogers
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 4:42 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be somewhat
similar to the VW diesel problem.

Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the burden of
time and expense to bring the device you specified and guaranteed to be in
compliance, into compliance.

I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards,
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to you
the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the defective
boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort of
disassembly and re-assembly.

Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Rogers]

I have been a loyal Elecrafter for many years, and this seems to be 
somewhat similar to the VW diesel problem.


Elecraft has sold me a radio specifying it to be in compliance with 
specifications of IMD. Now you are telling me that I must bear the 
burden of time and expense to bring the device you specified and 
guaranteed to be in compliance, into compliance.


I built mine from a kit, so Elecraft you send me the necessary boards, 
modules, whatever to bring my K3s into compliance and I will return to 
you the defective boards,, modules, whatever. Then you can rework the 
defective boards for the next exchange. I will spend the time and effort 
of disassembly and re-assembly.


Jim, W4ATK

K-line, K2



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[Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[j...@kk9a.com]

How about a user adjustable amplifier on set point?  In my case there is a
2 watt jump when going from 12 to 13 watts and if a person wanted a
smoother output in that range for an amp or whatever it would be possible.

John KK9A

from: Wayne Burdick n6kr

Wes,

This would be a simple firmware change, and it might be worth considering.
But typically we see -30 dBc or better at 12 W in production with the
latest revisions.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:59 AM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

> ….I would recommend that Elecraft change firmware to set the max power
out at 10W (LP) and switch in the KPA100 above 10W, not 12.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Finan]

Has the mechanism for the K3S returns been set up yet?

I suppose turn-around time also needs clarification too. 

Not many manufacturers would do this sort of upgrade, let alone for 'free'.

Thanks!

73,

Jim

Jim Finan
AB4AC ‎
Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
  Original Message  
From: Wayne Burdick
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:26 PM
To: ab2tc
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

Knut,

The K3S as originally shipped does not have a design flaw. Like virtually all 
12-V-class transceivers using currently available MOSFETs, it was already right 
around -30 dBc or better, worst-case, for 3rd-order IMD. We simply found a way 
to make it better by a few dB, and we're offering to make this upgrade at no 
charge.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

Knut,

The K3S as originally shipped does not have a design flaw. Like virtually all 
12-V-class transceivers using currently available MOSFETs, it was already right 
around -30 dBc or better, worst-case, for 3rd-order IMD. We simply found a way 
to make it better by a few dB, and we're offering to make this upgrade at no 
charge.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Jim Brown]

Bill,

Another good solution is LiFePO4 batteries, which have a relatively 
flatter discharge curve than Lead-Acid, and that discharge curve is much 
closer to 13V  for LiFePO4 than 11.5V for Lead Acid.  Yes, they're more 
expensive to buy, but they last a lot longer.


73, Jim K9YC

On Sat,10/15/2016 8:32 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
It seems to me that this solution would tie the K3S++ to mains power. 
Being tied to mains power would impact my club's use of K3s with 
batteries on events like the California QSO party. (Our location does 
not permit generators.) I don't know how much such a restriction would 
shrink the K3S market. 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[K9MA]

The reason DC power systems in vehicles and aircraft used 28 V or less 
historically is that that was the highest DC voltage that could be 
switched mechanically without excessive arcing.  (Has to do with the 
energy required to pull electrons out of metals, I believe.)  With the 
solid state switching devices now available, of course, higher voltages 
could now be used.


OT, I know, but I always thought that was interesting.

73,

Scott  K9MA

On 10/15/2016 19:46, ab2tc wrote:

Hi,

Well, as I remember it there was once a push to move to 48V for automotives
but that never happened (so far).

I was always skeptical on the wisdom on moving to FET finals at the 12V
level. Generally bipolars work better at this low voltage. FETs come come
into their own at higher voltages (24-75V).

In general I still think it is silly to make modern radios compatible with
the old 12V car power system. For portable use there are plenty of ways to
provide higher voltages. (Eventually power supplies manufacturers will make
notice.)

AB2TC - Knut


David Gilbert wrote

There was a major initiative at least 15 years ago in the automotive
industry to go to 28 volt systems in order to reduce the cost and weight
of the heavier wires that were needed to cope with the expanding current
drain as more things in the car went electronic. Not sure what happened
to that since I've been retired, but I assume ways were found to make
the new electronics more energy efficient in the first place.  As I
remember, one of the issues holding back 28 volt systems was the higher
breakdown voltages that would be needed for the various semiconductors
involved ... not everything gets more efficient or cost effective as
voltages go up.

73,
Dave  AB7E


On 10/15/2016 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

And therein lies the reason for using 12V. It would have been easier had
we
gone from 6V automotive power to 28V as is used on many aircraft so
manufacturers were encouraged to build generators and equipment for that
voltage, but that didn't happen.

73, Ron AC7AC

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k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Well, as I remember it there was once a push to move to 48V for automotives
but that never happened (so far).

I was always skeptical on the wisdom on moving to FET finals at the 12V
level. Generally bipolars work better at this low voltage. FETs come come
into their own at higher voltages (24-75V).

In general I still think it is silly to make modern radios compatible with
the old 12V car power system. For portable use there are plenty of ways to
provide higher voltages. (Eventually power supplies manufacturers will make
notice.)

AB2TC - Knut


David Gilbert wrote
> There was a major initiative at least 15 years ago in the automotive 
> industry to go to 28 volt systems in order to reduce the cost and weight 
> of the heavier wires that were needed to cope with the expanding current 
> drain as more things in the car went electronic. Not sure what happened 
> to that since I've been retired, but I assume ways were found to make 
> the new electronics more energy efficient in the first place.  As I 
> remember, one of the issues holding back 28 volt systems was the higher 
> breakdown voltages that would be needed for the various semiconductors 
> involved ... not everything gets more efficient or cost effective as 
> voltages go up.
> 
> 73,
> Dave  AB7E
> 
> 
> On 10/15/2016 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> And therein lies the reason for using 12V. It would have been easier had
>> we
>> gone from 6V automotive power to 28V as is used on many aircraft so
>> manufacturers were encouraged to build generators and equipment for that
>> voltage, but that didn't happen.
>>
>> 73, Ron AC7AC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Leonard N0CU]

Wayne,

For those of us with the unmodified KLPA3A (10 W module), can the mods be
done by a skilled engr/tech. If so, can the parts be made available as a
kit. If not, can just the module be sent in for modification instead of the
whole radio.

Bill  N0CU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[ab2tc]

Quote:
"Unless things have changed they test at one frequency and assume the other
bands produce the same results. "

Hi,

I don't believe this is true. The ARRL publishes a "typical" IMD figure and
a "worst case" figure which I assume to be the worst case for any band and
they they publish which band this is (12m for the recent K3S review).

Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that about 600 K3S purchasers are faced
with the prospect of having to face the cost and inconvenience of having to
return their rigs (I am one of them) to fix this apparent design flaw. Not
to do so would be unethical (to transmit with excessive IMD).

AB2TC - Knut


Kevin wrote
> Yaesu's secret was the ARRL. Unless things have changed they test at one 
> frequency and assume the other bands produce the same results.
> 
> I'll reverse the question, what has Yaesu done to rigs since 1991 that 
> they can't reproduce those numbers?
> 





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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[David Gilbert]

There was a major initiative at least 15 years ago in the automotive 
industry to go to 28 volt systems in order to reduce the cost and weight 
of the heavier wires that were needed to cope with the expanding current 
drain as more things in the car went electronic. Not sure what happened 
to that since I've been retired, but I assume ways were found to make 
the new electronics more energy efficient in the first place.  As I 
remember, one of the issues holding back 28 volt systems was the higher 
breakdown voltages that would be needed for the various semiconductors 
involved ... not everything gets more efficient or cost effective as 
voltages go up.


73,
Dave  AB7E


On 10/15/2016 12:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

And therein lies the reason for using 12V. It would have been easier had we
gone from 6V automotive power to 28V as is used on many aircraft so
manufacturers were encouraged to build generators and equipment for that
voltage, but that didn't happen.

73, Ron AC7AC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

And therein lies the reason for using 12V. It would have been easier had we
gone from 6V automotive power to 28V as is used on many aircraft so
manufacturers were encouraged to build generators and equipment for that
voltage, but that didn't happen. 

73, Ron AC7AC
 
-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Frantz
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2016 8:33 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

It seems to me that this solution would tie the K3S++ to mains power. Being
tied to mains power would impact my club's use of K3s with batteries on
events like the California QSO party. (Our location does not permit
generators.) I don't know how much such a restriction would shrink the K3S
market.

A voltage booster could be a solution. Such a device would have to be well
shielded and bypassed to avoid RFI. It could either be internal to the radio
or a "bump on the power cable". Such devices are available in the market and
seem to work well.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 10/14/16 at 5:14 PM, ksto...@ac0h.net (Kevin) wrote:

>The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much improved by
moving to 24 or 50V finals.
>
>Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited to 
>150 or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply 
>capable of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in 
>for the rest of the radio.

---
Bill Frantz| Concurrency is hard. 12 out  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | 10 programmers get it wrong. | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |- Jeff Frantz | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

Wayne,

Ok, I'll defer to your numbers.  Offhand I don't have mine handy, but I was 
pretty amazed at how quickly the IMD rose above 10W. I'm not saying anything new 
here, back in December in this thread 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Powering-a-K3s-from-a-battery-tt7611959.html#a7611980, 
I said among other things:


"All I'm saying is that if you run the LPA at 10-12 watts, according to my
measurements*, the IMD is pretty bad.  If you have an HPA, then after it's
kicked in, (13W in my K3S) the LPA is running at greatly reduced power.  I don't
believe Elecraft has to change anything.  Guys with a KPA3(A) just need to avoid
the grey area of 10-15W.


*Remarkably, IMD measurements I made on my K3S using modest equipment correlated
within 1dB or less to measurements made by Elecraft, on the same radio. "

Wes



On 10/15/2016 8:07 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Wes,

This would be a simple firmware change, and it might be worth considering. But 
typically we see -30 dBc or better at 12 W in production with the latest 
revisions.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:59 AM, Wes Stewart  wrote:


….I would recommend that Elecraft change firmware to set the max power out at 
10W (LP) and switch in the KPA100 above 10W, not 12.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Frantz]

It seems to me that this solution would tie the K3S++ to mains 
power. Being tied to mains power would impact my club's use of 
K3s with batteries on events like the California QSO party. (Our 
location does not permit generators.) I don't know how much such 
a restriction would shrink the K3S market.


A voltage booster could be a solution. Such a device would have 
to be well shielded and bypassed to avoid RFI. It could either 
be internal to the radio or a "bump on the power cable". Such 
devices are available in the market and seem to work well.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 10/14/16 at 5:14 PM, ksto...@ac0h.net (Kevin) wrote:


The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much improved by 
moving to 24 or 50V finals.

Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, 
limited to 150 or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V 
switching supply capable of 15-20A continuous current, with a 
10A 12V switcher built in for the rest of the radio.


---
Bill Frantz| Concurrency is hard. 12 out  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | 10 programmers get it wrong. | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |- Jeff Frantz | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

No doubt in 1991 they were using bipolar transistors, which in some cases could 
hit a "magic" combination that resulted in better than average performance. 
These days everyone uses MOSFETs, which are consistently in the -30 dBc range 
on at least one band. The K3S with the latest updates averages about -35 dBc at 
100 W (see ARRL review).

Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 15, 2016, at 8:05 AM, Kevin <ksto...@ac0h.net> wrote:

> Yaesu's secret was the ARRL. Unless things have changed they test at one 
> frequency and assume the other bands produce the same results.
> 
> I'll reverse the question, what has Yaesu done to rigs since 1991 that they 
> can't reproduce those numbers?
> 
> 
> On 10/14/2016 10:03 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
>> Yaesu FT-990, 12V finals
>> 3rd order TX IMD  -38dB
>> ARRL Review 11/91
>> 
>> ARRL heaped glowing praise upon this rig way back in 1991 for its
>> Tx IMD performance.  So, what was Yaesu's secret, and why haven't 
>> manufacturers figured it out and capitalized on it ever since?
>> 
>> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
>> Yuma, Arizona
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message----- From: Kevin
>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 5:14 PM
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article
>> 
>> The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much
>> improved
>> by moving to 24 or 50V finals.
>> 
>> Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited
>> to 150
>> or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply
>> capable
>> of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in
>> for the
>> rest of the radio.
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/14/2016 1:33 PM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:
>>> I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a
>>> contributor the IMD
>>> issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad
>>> assumption. To me,
>>> the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF
>>> power
>>> amplifiers.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

Wes,

This would be a simple firmware change, and it might be worth considering. But 
typically we see -30 dBc or better at 12 W in production with the latest 
revisions.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 15, 2016, at 7:59 AM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

> ….I would recommend that Elecraft change firmware to set the max power out at 
> 10W (LP) and switch in the KPA100 above 10W, not 12.




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Kevin]

Yaesu's secret was the ARRL. Unless things have changed they test at one 
frequency and assume the other bands produce the same results.


I'll reverse the question, what has Yaesu done to rigs since 1991 that 
they can't reproduce those numbers?



On 10/14/2016 10:03 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

Yaesu FT-990, 12V finals
3rd order TX IMD  -38dB
ARRL Review 11/91

ARRL heaped glowing praise upon this rig way back in 1991 for its
Tx IMD performance.  So, what was Yaesu's secret, and why haven't 
manufacturers figured it out and capitalized on it ever since?


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona


-Original Message- From: Kevin
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 5:14 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much
improved
by moving to 24 or 50V finals.

Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited
to 150
or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply
capable
of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in
for the
rest of the radio.


On 10/14/2016 1:33 PM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:

I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a
contributor the IMD
issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad
assumption. To me,
the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF
power
amplifiers.






--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

My experience suggests that running the low power amp in a K3(S) above 10W is a 
disaster. In a K3(S)/100 the HPA isn't activated until above 12W.  IMHO, again 
based only on my measurements of my K3 and my K3S (before mods), I would 
recommend that Elecraft change firmware to set the max power out at 10W (LP) and 
switch in the KPA100 above 10W, not 12.


On 10/14/2016 9:17 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:

OK.  I purchased the K3/10 in 2010 which is able to output up to 12w.

Is the low power amp any better at IMD, or subject to the same limitations 
because its 12v transistors?
I bought the KXPA-100 last year.  Would it be any better than the KPA3 or 
KPA3A?  3rd-order IMD in the vicinity of -30 dBc is about what I have read for 
specs my many 12v power devices.


I bought the new synth because I understood it would improve Rx performance 
(haven't installed them yet main & sub Rx).  Also for K3 use at 630m.


Would running the K3/10 at 5w driving a linear amp be lower in IMD?  The amp 
uses 50v devices and made for TV which has greater linearity specs than SSB. I 
am also running it at about 60% full output on 6m.


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

The improvements we made this year (referenced in my previous posting) bring up 
both worst-case and average performance of the K3S on all bands, at all power 
levels.

Regarding the Yaesu radio that hit -38 dBc worst-case using the same PA 
topology: luck of the draw. There are many factors, including things as 
esoteric as the quality of the ferrite in the output transformers. We've 
measured similar rigs from all major manufacturers that were right around -30. 
In addition, many radios will not hit 100 W on all bands, even at 14 V.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 14, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:

> Without too much elaboration let's just say that I discovered this problem 
> long before ARRL did.  (S/N 10020)
> 
> I can tell you that my measurements show that IMD varies with Vcc (Vdd), 
> drive level, power output and frequency….


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

Without too much elaboration let's just say that I discovered this problem long 
before ARRL did.  (S/N 10020)


I can tell you that my measurements show that IMD varies with Vcc (Vdd), drive 
level, power output and frequency.  This latter parameter is, as best as I can 
determine, inexplicable by anyone, including the manufacturers of the 
transistors.  Initially, I compared my shiny new K3S to my tired old, unmodified 
K3.  At the original test frequency, 3.8 MHz the K3 had much lower IMD that the 
K3S under otherwise the same test conditions.  Moving up to 14 MHz the situation 
reversed.  Each of these radios had a different "sweet spot," neither of which 
was representative of the general case.  If a testing entity happens to test at 
only one frequency and reports the results as typical then you get a false sense 
of the general performance.


Wes, N7WS

On 10/14/2016 8:03 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

Yaesu FT-990, 12V finals
3rd order TX IMD  -38dB
ARRL Review 11/91

ARRL heaped glowing praise upon this rig way back in 1991 for its
Tx IMD performance.  So, what was Yaesu's secret, and why haven't 
manufacturers figured it out and capitalized on it ever since?


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona


-Original Message- From: Kevin
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 5:14 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much
improved
by moving to 24 or 50V finals.

Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited
to 150
or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply
capable
of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in
for the
rest of the radio.


On 10/14/2016 1:33 PM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:

I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a
contributor the IMD
issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad
assumption. To me,
the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF
power
amplifiers.






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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Edward R Cole]

OK.  I purchased the K3/10 in 2010 which is able to output up to 12w.

Is the low power amp any better at IMD, or subject to the same 
limitations because its 12v transistors?
I bought the KXPA-100 last year.  Would it be any better than the 
KPA3 or KPA3A?  3rd-order IMD in the vicinity of -30 dBc is about 
what I have read for specs my many 12v power devices.


I bought the new synth because I understood it would improve Rx 
performance (haven't installed them yet main & sub Rx).  Also for K3 
use at 630m.


Would running the K3/10 at 5w driving a linear amp be lower in 
IMD?  The amp uses 50v devices and made for TV which has greater 
linearity specs than SSB. I am also running it at about 60% full output on 6m.


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Dave Hachadorian]

Yaesu FT-990, 12V finals
3rd order TX IMD  -38dB
ARRL Review 11/91

ARRL heaped glowing praise upon this rig way back in 1991 for its
Tx IMD performance.  So, what was Yaesu's secret, and why haven't 
manufacturers figured it out and capitalized on it ever since?


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona


-Original Message- 
From: Kevin

Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 5:14 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much
improved
by moving to 24 or 50V finals.

Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited
to 150
or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply
capable
of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in
for the
rest of the radio.


On 10/14/2016 1:33 PM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:

I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a
contributor the IMD
issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad
assumption. To me,
the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF
power
amplifiers.




--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

Or, we could all run 32S-3 transmitters and listen on our whiz/bang SDR.  
So far, they're about the cleanest 100 watt transmitter reasonably
available.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 8:14 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much improved by
moving to 24 or 50V finals.

Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited to 150 or
200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply capable of
15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in for the rest of
the radio.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Kevin]

The cause for this is the use of 12V finals. It would be much improved 
by moving to 24 or 50V finals.


Move the /K3s II/ to 50V finals, say a pair of MRF 150's, limited to 150 
or 200W max output. Design/Sell an outboard 50V switching supply capable 
of 15-20A continuous current, with a 10A 12V switcher built in for the 
rest of the radio.



On 10/14/2016 1:33 PM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:

I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a contributor the IMD
issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad assumption. To me,
the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF power
amplifiers.




--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

> Based upon your experience and understanding of the issue, would an original 
> K3 (not K3s) with the new synths have better TX IMD?  In other words, is the 
> poor TX IMD of the K3s a function of some part of the rig not associated with 
> the new synths?
> 
> Dave   AB7E


Hi all,

This has nothing to do with the new synthesizer.

Normally, the K3S (or K3) has worst-case TX 3rd-order IMD in the vicinity of 
-30 dBc (ARRL method) at rated power (10 W/100 W +/- 1 dB on most bands; see 
specs for exceptions). Nearly all other 12-V-capable transceivers are in this 
same range, because they all use approximately the same circuitry and PA 
devices. 

We have made changes in K3S production that improve average IMD performance at 
both low and high power levels by as much as 3 dB. We will make these changes 
free of charge on any K3S returned to the factory for this purpose, whether or 
not it is still in the warranty period. The only charge would be for return 
shipping.

The changes were phased in at the following serial numbers:

  KPA3A (100 W PA option):Factory assembled, #10852Kit, #10864
  LPA (10 W module):  Factory assembled, #10920Kit, #10939

Please email k3supp...@elecraft.com if you have any further questions.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Leonard N0CU]

I would not expect the synthesizer (old or new) to be a contributor the IMD
issue. Hopefully someone will correct me if that is a bad assumption. To me,
the primary issue appears to be the linearity of the two RF power
amplifiers.

During the course of my troubleshooting, I noticed that a number of changes
were made to the original KLPA3 in the process of getting to the new KLPA3A
design. I would be interested in knowing how the IMD performance of the
original design compares to the new KLPA3A design.

Bill  N0CU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[ab2tc]

Hi all,

I, too. prefer the paper copy, but the mention of a K3S review got me too
intrigued, so I had to read it online.

As for the other comments in this thread, I find this situation more than a
little worrisome and certainly an official Elecraft response is hoped for.
Are the updates being tested by the ARRL and published as their final
findings in their performance tables even into production yet?

AB2TC - Knut

Wes Stewart-2 wrote
> Hi Knut,
> 
> Yes, I get a notification about the digital issue, but I prefer to read
> the 
> paper copy, so I wait.  It did come yesterday so I've seen it now.
> 
> Wes
> 





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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[David Gilbert]

Based upon your experience and understanding of the issue, would an 
original K3 (not K3s) with the new synths have better TX IMD?  In other 
words, is the poor TX IMD of the K3s a function of some part of the rig 
not associated with the new synths?


Dave   AB7E


On 10/14/2016 9:06 AM, Bill Leonard N0CU wrote:

I was not surprised to see a comment about the Tx IMDs in the QST article.
One of the first problems I encountered with my new K3s/10 was poor Tx IMD
performance. What I observed was flat topping that started at about 5W, and
progressively got worse as the power was increased. The distortion was so
bad at 10W, the envelope looked more like a squarewave than a two tone
signal, and the 3rd order products were down only -18 dBc. After several
months of working with Wayne, Rene, and the designer of the KLPA3A
amplifier, replacing the KLPA3A three times, and sending the radio to the
factory, the problem was reduced, but I still don't see better than -28 dBc
at 10W out. Not wanting to send the radio in to the factory a second time, I
decided to just live with the performance.

The transmit signal generation in the K3s is a complex process based around
the internal computer. Signal quality is affected by ALC, transmit power
level, configuration settings, and the transmit power CAL, however, from all
of the testing that I did, the signal going into the KLPA3A was very clean
(-40 dBc). It is also important to note that Elecraft's approach to
distortion management includes spreading the energy in the distortion out
spectrally by the use of pre-distortion. This results in 5th, 7th, 9th,...
order products being higher compared to some radios, as noted in the QST
article.

The QST article indicated that both the KLPA3A and the KPA3A have been
modified to address the Tx IMD problem. I am hopeful that at some point
Elecraft will offer some info/options that will allow us to bring the
unmodified radios up to the performance shown in the QST article

Bill  N0CU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Bill Leonard N0CU]

I was not surprised to see a comment about the Tx IMDs in the QST article.
One of the first problems I encountered with my new K3s/10 was poor Tx IMD
performance. What I observed was flat topping that started at about 5W, and
progressively got worse as the power was increased. The distortion was so
bad at 10W, the envelope looked more like a squarewave than a two tone
signal, and the 3rd order products were down only -18 dBc. After several
months of working with Wayne, Rene, and the designer of the KLPA3A
amplifier, replacing the KLPA3A three times, and sending the radio to the
factory, the problem was reduced, but I still don't see better than -28 dBc
at 10W out. Not wanting to send the radio in to the factory a second time, I
decided to just live with the performance.

The transmit signal generation in the K3s is a complex process based around
the internal computer. Signal quality is affected by ALC, transmit power
level, configuration settings, and the transmit power CAL, however, from all
of the testing that I did, the signal going into the KLPA3A was very clean
(-40 dBc). It is also important to note that Elecraft's approach to
distortion management includes spreading the energy in the distortion out
spectrally by the use of pre-distortion. This results in 5th, 7th, 9th,...
order products being higher compared to some radios, as noted in the QST
article.

The QST article indicated that both the KLPA3A and the KPA3A have been
modified to address the Tx IMD problem. I am hopeful that at some point
Elecraft will offer some info/options that will allow us to bring the
unmodified radios up to the performance shown in the QST article

Bill  N0CU



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

Hi Knut,

Yes, I get a notification about the digital issue, but I prefer to read the 
paper copy, so I wait.  It did come yesterday so I've seen it now.


Wes

On 10/13/2016 5:35 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi Wes,

You can read it online. I received an Email link from ARRL to my online
copy.

AB2TC - Knut




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[ab2tc]

Hi Wes,

You can read it online. I received an Email link from ARRL to my online
copy.

AB2TC - Knut


Wes Stewart-2 wrote
> I have not seen my QST yet.  I think the mailman reads it first.  But you
> ask an 
> excellent question.
> 
> On 10/13/2016 2:25 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Very good review - for the most part.
> 





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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[lmarion]

Good question that I would like to know the answer to.

Leroy AB7CE

-Original Message- 
From: ab2tc

Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 3:25 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

Hi,

Very good review - for the most part.

I am concerned about the transmit IMD results mentioned only in a side bar
"Lab Notes: ..." on page 50. Initially the transmit IMD in the original
review sample was less than stellar, but eventually got resolved by Elecraft
submitting a new review sample with KPA3A rev C4 and KLPA3 rev B installed.
How can I tell if my relatively new K3S ser# 10480 has the new modules
installed? If they aren't, is this a warranty repair?

AB2TC - Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wes Stewart]

I have not seen my QST yet.  I think the mailman reads it first.  But you ask an 
excellent question.


On 10/13/2016 2:25 PM, ab2tc wrote:

Hi,

Very good review - for the most part.

I am concerned about the transmit IMD results mentioned only in a side bar
"Lab Notes: ..." on page 50. Initially the transmit IMD in the original
review sample was less than stellar, but eventually got resolved by Elecraft
submitting a new review sample with KPA3A rev C4 and KLPA3 rev B installed.
How can I tell if my relatively new K3S ser# 10480 has the new modules
installed? If they aren't, is this a warranty repair?

AB2TC - Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[ab2tc]

Hi,

Very good review - for the most part. 

I am concerned about the transmit IMD results mentioned only in a side bar
"Lab Notes: ..." on page 50. Initially the transmit IMD in the original
review sample was less than stellar, but eventually got resolved by Elecraft
submitting a new review sample with KPA3A rev C4 and KLPA3 rev B installed.
How can I tell if my relatively new K3S ser# 10480 has the new modules
installed? If they aren't, is this a warranty repair?

AB2TC - Knut



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Wayne Burdick]

Thank you for noticing :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 12, 2016, at 8:41 PM, "Dauer, Edward"  wrote:

> The November issue of QST arrived in the mail today.  Nice article about the 
> K3S, in case anyone hasn’t yet seen it.
> 
> Ted, KN1CBR


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[Elecraft] K3S QST Article

[Dauer, Edward]

The November issue of QST arrived in the mail today.  Nice article about the 
K3S, in case anyone hasn’t yet seen it.

Ted, KN1CBR

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