Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-17 Thread Bill W4ZV
(BTW I wrote the following ~3 years ago before APF was changed from HOLD to
TAP on DUAL PB):

##
I use APF virtually all the time and never use RIT, SHIFT, etc.  Just HOLD
DUAL PB to actuate APF and use the VFO to zero beat.  COARSE (10 Hz) VFO
steps is usually close enough but you can switch to FINE (1 Hz) if necessary
for ultra weak signals.  I also strongly endorse N6KR's suggestion below: 

"I suggest setting the passband width to about 250-300 Hz when using APF." 

This is extremely important since bandwidths too narrow will introduce
additional ringing to the APF which already borders on ringing.  I actually
use a 200 Hz XFIL but set to actuate at DSP 400 Hz.  With WIDTH set to 400
Hz, the signal first goes through the relatively broad (4.0 shape factor)
200 Hz XFIL, then a 400 Hz DSP and finally the narrow APF.  This makes the
cascaded XFIL/DSP seem more like 250 Hz, reduces ringing, still allows you
to hear off-frequency callers (although attenuated) and helps your ears
discriminate weak signals from noise by providing a wider background sample
of noise.
###

The last phrase "helps your ears discriminate weak signals from noise by
providing a wider background sample of noise" is key.  Narrower bandwidths
are not best for the human ear/brain...no matter what theory says about
narrower bandwidths having better S/N.

73,  Bill  W4ZV



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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-16 Thread David Blake via Elecraft
I chase very weak CW signals on 160M 80M and 6M many of which Iwould not have 
been able to hear unless I turned on the APF feature.
I have a 400kz filter as my narrowest CW filter and tune like this: 
    1) Zero beat exactly 
    2) Hold the XFIL/APF button    3) Narrow the width as far as it will go  to 
.05 which I interpret as being 50hz    4) it might help to change tuning to 3 
digits by taping the FINE button    5) Tune ever so carefully +/- a few hz and 
sometimes shifting slightly until the best signal is heard
A weak signal often pops right out of the noise, but be you will find there may 
be unpleasantringing, popping in the noise you might not like.  Point is u can 
pull a signal out and work himwhen it would otherwise be impossible to copy.
73Dave N4DB  K3s 10223
 

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 12:56 PM, Robert W5AJ Wood <wood...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 I'm curious about others BW (width) setting on CW
If weak, really weak  using 20 to 15 hz 
Going narrower to 10 or 5hz setting doesn't seem to do much 
Really helps on weak 160 signals, generally APF off 

73 Robert W5AJ



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 9:43 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal is at
the APF peak.

I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.

Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth display.
Other spectrum display programs would work as well.

73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. 
> In my own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not 
> seem to help APF function and rather muddies it.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt <huntin...@coastside.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is 
>> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
>> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
>> NR= ~ 5-3
>> APF= ON
>> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR 
>> settings of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the 
>> APF has something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck <k...@arcomcontrollers.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
>>>
>>> That should answer your question :-)
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>>>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
>>>> been
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow 
>> or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>>>> ...robert
>>>> --
>>>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa 
>>>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>>>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-16 Thread Robert W5AJ Wood
I'm curious about others BW (width) setting on CW
If weak, really weak  using 20 to 15 hz 
Going narrower to 10 or 5hz setting doesn't seem to do much 
Really helps on weak 160 signals, generally APF off 

73 Robert W5AJ



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 9:43 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal is at
the APF peak.

I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.

Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth display.
Other spectrum display programs would work as well.

73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. 
> In my own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not 
> seem to help APF function and rather muddies it.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt <huntin...@coastside.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is 
>> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
>> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
>> NR= ~ 5-3
>> APF= ON
>> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR 
>> settings of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the 
>> APF has something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>>
>> 73,
>> Brian, K0DTJ
>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck <k...@arcomcontrollers.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
>>>
>>> That should answer your question :-)
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>>>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
>>>> been
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow 
>> or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>>>> ...robert
>>>> --
>>>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa 
>>>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>>>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-16 Thread brian
Part of the problem with narrower bandwidths is making sure the signal 
is at the APF peak.


I had fits trying to use APF with 200-400 Hz dialed in until I launched 
Spectrogram and made sure the signal peak aligned with the APF peak.
Weak signals still show even when you have trouble hearing them.  This 
alignment helps with pulling them out.  One can tune either the K3 shift 
knob or K3 main tuning if it is set at 1 Hz steps.


Works every time.

Spectrogram can be collapsed to a small rectangle for this purpose an 
permanently left on the display.  HSDR also has a narrow bandwidth 
display.  Other spectrum display programs would work as well.


73 de Brian/K3KO




On 10/16/2016 13:03 PM, Chip Stratton wrote:

I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. In my
own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not seem to
help APF function and rather muddies it.

Chip
AE5KA

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
wrote:


On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is
desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
BW= 700-1000 Hz,
NR= ~ 5-3
APF= ON
Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings
of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has
something to work on.  My theory, anyway.

73,
Brian, K0DTJ


On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:

The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.

That should answer your question :-)

Ken


At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:

When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been

selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or
wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.

...robert
--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA



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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-16 Thread Chip Stratton
I seem to recall a recommendation to use a 400 Hz bandwidth with APF. In my
own exerience, narrowing DSP bandwidth much below this does not seem to
help APF function and rather muddies it.

Chip
AE5KA

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Brian Hunt 
wrote:

> On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is
> desirable since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
> BW= 700-1000 Hz,
> NR= ~ 5-3
> APF= ON
> Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings
> of 5 and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has
> something to work on.  My theory, anyway.
>
> 73,
> Brian, K0DTJ
>
> > On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
> >
> > The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
> >
> > That should answer your question :-)
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
> >> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been
> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or
> wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
> >> ...robert
> >> --
> >> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
> >> rc...@verizon.net.usa
> >> Syracuse, New York, USA
> >>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-15 Thread Brian Hunt
On the other hand, when used in conjunction with NR a wider DSP BW is desirable 
since NR works on uncorrelated noise. Try:
BW= 700-1000 Hz,
NR= ~ 5-3
APF= ON
Great for pulling out weak signals on an uncrowded band. The NR settings of 5 
and above mix processed and non-processed data so the APF has something to work 
on.  My theory, anyway. 

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 19:52, Ken Arck  wrote:
> 
> The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.
> 
> That should answer your question :-)
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
>> When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has been 
>> selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a narrow or wide 
>> bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.
>> ...robert
>> --
>> Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
>> rc...@verizon.net.usa
>> Syracuse, New York, USA
>> 

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Re: [Elecraft] (K3) APF and selected bandwidth

2016-10-15 Thread Ken Arck

The narrower the bandwidth, the better signal to noise.

That should answer your question :-)

Ken


At 07:39 PM 10/15/2016, Robert G Strickland wrote:
When using the APF, does it make a difference which bandwidth has 
been selected? Or in other words, does APF work better on top of a 
narrow or wide bandwidth, or is selected bandwidth irrelevant? Thanks.

...robert
--
Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY
rc...@verizon.net.usa
Syracuse, New York, USA
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