Re: [EM] Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Kathy Dopp
First, I want to thank everyone who replied to my question. I'm buried in my usual unpaid work, or I'd be more conversant - trying to get three projects done in a very short time and no time for them all. I do appreciate all the answers and info. Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 16:01:46 -0400 From:

Re: [EM] Delegable proxy/cascade and killer apps

2008-09-24 Thread Michael Allan
I imagine the biggest thing on offer (for N = 0 to 9) is the distant promise of what it's designed to do. We have to express that promise, and hold it out as worth reaching for (which it is!). Raph Frank wote: It has potential as an organising system. However, with only 10 people,

Re: [EM] Delegable proxy/cascade and killer apps

2008-09-24 Thread Raph Frank
On 9/24/08, Michael Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, if Nmax (population size) is low, then a voting medium is not needed. The purpose of the medium is support the growth of the discussion in the population as a whole. By providing structural handholds for agreement, it enables the

Re: [EM] (MA-1) A medium of communicative assent

2008-09-24 Thread Raph Frank
On 9/24/08, Michael Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True, the translation barrier (from open to secret ballots) is another protection. It's partial. On its own, it cannot protect an open vote from purchase for its signalling value (like a paid endorsement, or a meeting stuffed with a paid

Re: [EM] Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 12:04 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote: Do you or does anyone know if this muti-seat IRV method that splits votes of voters to their second choice candidates after some winning candidates receive the threshold amount of votes, exhibits non-monotonicity or not like the normal IRV method does? If so,

Re: [EM] Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax
At 03:49 PM 9/23/2008, Raph Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It should be OK as long as the random selection is actually reasonably random. In theory. But Kathy Dopp is a voting security expert. They like to be able to

Re: [EM] Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Jonathan Lundell
On Sep 24, 2008, at 12:07 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: In theory. But Kathy Dopp is a voting security expert. They like to be able to recount elections and, if no errors were made, get the same results. While this can be done with pseudo-random sequences, I'm not sure I'd trust local

Re: [EM] the 'who' and the 'what'

2008-09-24 Thread Fred Gohlke
Good Afternoon, Michael This is in response to your message to me on September 8th. You describe what you have in mind via at least one level of abstraction and, for me, that adds a degree of difficulty. For example, and please forgive me obtuseness, I don't understand your closing

[EM] Fwd: Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Raph Frank
(forwarding this) Hi, Did you intend to send your reply to the full list? I haven't replied to the list just in case. On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:49 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Kathy Dopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [EM] Question on RCV/IRV multi-seat method used in Minneapolis

2008-09-24 Thread Paul Kislanko
There is no confidence in the US regarding EITHER the counting OR the maintenance of the rolls. Parties in power purge the rolls of voters known to be for party-not-in-power so regularly it's not even addressed by the courts any more, and NEGATIVE votes for candidates have been known to be

Re: [EM] Random and reproductible tie-breaks

2008-09-24 Thread Allen Smith
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] (on 24 September 2008 23:05:05 +), [EMAIL PROTECTED] (=?iso-8859-1?B?U3TpcGhhbmUgUm91aWxsb24=?=) wrote: for an anti-fraud purpose, the capacity to repeat the counting operation is a must. Hence I recommand to use a reproductible random procedure to break ties.

Re: [EM] Random and reproductible tie-breaks

2008-09-24 Thread Stéphane Rouillon
Hello Allen, simply using the number of ballots involved in the tie is enough. Compare its rest using euclidian divison by the number of involved candidates to the alphabetical rank of the candidates. Simple, effective and greatly equiprobable. It works for winner selection as for elemination