trying with Condorcet?
Dave Ketchum wrote
For the American system either IRV or Condorcet will be more tolerant of
third party votes than Plurality is, so we can expect more of them.
Yes I agree. Skimming through the 2002 congressional results I noticed
two significant organised groupings other
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 03:47:10 +0200 (CEST) Kevin Venzke wrote:
--- Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
(3) Strategy concerns, not necessarily catastrophic but enough to
complicate voting. For example, under Condorcet voters have the ability
to dump a low-utility Condorcet winner using
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Dave Ketchum wrote:
...
To me Condorcet is about as simple as it gets - list the candidates in
order, starting with your favorite and continuing until you care not which
of the remainder wins (which can only
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:22:26 +0200 (CEST) Kevin Venzke wrote:
--- Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
So utility has SOME KIND of value which i have demonstrated I do not
understand. How about letting me in on the secret.
Maybe you can understand it in terms of strength
the remaining minority of the
total ballots.
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice
, beyond not reading the same kind of comlaints against
them - and knowing they claim a 100 year history of learning to do it right..
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what
when they complain that
you do not have one), except they hope for profile information - you can
skip most of this as I do, but they might do better with selecting ads for
us if they had a clue as to what we might like.
--
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Dave
that this combination of statements, if true, identify the
standards as being inadequate.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you
that an Approval voter can have set the cutoff too high, just as well as
too low - in both cases the topic I see is whether the voter, after the
votes get counted, could wish to have made a different decision as to cutoff.
--
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Dave
/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:08:30 -0400 Eric Gorr wrote:
At 3:03 AM -0400 8/8/03, Dave Ketchum wrote:
Except for cases involving IRV spoilers, winners are IDENTICAL -
repeat IDENTICAL!!!
Condorcet backers emphasize the IRV spoilers because those are the
major reason for choosing Condorcet over
/webpages3/davek
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any voter to convert to CB lets A win.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:58:36 -0400 Stephane Rouillon wrote:
Dave Ketchum a écrit :
snip
In Ranked Balloting:
I read above of burying - ranking a competitor at the bottom
of the pack, BUT:
If the competitor is that undesirable, this is normal
voting
to me whether forbidding polling immediately before
elections would help or hurt.
Dave Ketchum
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:51:01 -0400 James Green-Armytage wrote:
Dear election methods fans,
In the sort of strategy scenarios that I have been talking about, one
fairly positive possibility occurred
://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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to control who got to be officials, and
when officials got replaced, WITHOUT doing elections.
Dave Ketchum
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Forest Simmons wrote:
I notice that all of the application that you mention, whether public or
private, seem to assume human candidates and human
be possible, but to
be done only to recover from serious problems).
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Alex Small wrote:
Dave Ketchum said:
If I really wanted to broaden the field, I might get into ways for the
people being represented to control who got
will give you a tie to resolve by
flipping a coin.
Dave Ketchum
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Alex Small wrote:
OK, let's imagine a simple situation: 3 voters, named A, B, and C. 3
candidates, named x, y, and z. Is it possible that, no matter what
stances the 3 candidates take
. The difference will be
determined by how the other voters treat the two candidates.
You seem to be trying to make something complicated when it does not need
to be complicated.
Are you sure?
Donald,
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY
.
Dave Ketchum
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:15:49 -0800 Rob Brown wrote:
Hi all,
I have lurked on this list on and off for a few years (the whole Nader
thing in 2000 really got me interested in how thorougly broken plurality
systems are). Now I'm working on a web-based Condorcet based election
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 00:23:08 + Gervase Lam wrote:
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:55:07 -0500
From: Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EM] Displaying intermediate results in Condorcet-based
elections (re: Rob Brown's original question)
Someone mentioned Approval - I object for, while
?
Regards,
Bo
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list
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Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
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, consistent with its importance.
MUST respect the secrecy of my vote.
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace
anything. The only thing that can be done is to take a copy of the
floppy before it is used and after all the voting machine are started...
but this is not done!!!
I assume it would have cost too much to have two set of copies. ;-)
David GLAUDE
Dave Ketchum wrote:
1. MUST enable potential
election without technical problem... be it hardware
or software.
Confidence in the result and user acceptance of electronic voting
decrease each time. ;-)
David GLAUDE
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 02:28:12 +0100 David GLAUDE wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
I was around when Ada (the language) was born and, unless it has
improved A LOT, better if it had died YOUNG. I would have more hope
for Java or Linux.
Ada did reborn in 93 when the X of ADA 9X became 3.
Could
and less data to forward or to publish as a public record (do it
once and be done) than the IRV choices.
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:37:09 + Gervase Lam wrote:
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:59:28 -0500
From: Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EM] Electronic Voting Bill of Rights?
It depends on whether you do Disk-At-Once or Track-At-Once recording.
If you do Disk-At-Once (i.e. write all
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:46:11 +0100 David GLAUDE wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
We are getting in pretty deep here. I will repeat what I have said a
few times:
Vendor (whoever has this responsibility) writes program (whatever
is standard and in common for all precincts using this program
on a small random sampling of the
ballots would be a viable alternative to ballot serialization.)
The statistics problem is not that simple, for you do partial or complete
recounts of precincts, plus validation of central reporting and arithmetic.
Ken Johnson
Dave Ketchum wrote:
I wrote on Mon, 17 Nov
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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Kevin Shelley mandated that
Californians be provided with a verifiable paper trail in future elections:
http://www.ss.ca.gov/executive/press_releases/2003/03_106.pdf
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
not compile and if it is
compiled, then the behaviour is undefined and maybe unpredictable.
Will it be DESKEYLEN-1? DESKEYLEN? or DESKEYLEN+1? or it depend on stack
usage durring interrupt (IRQ).
David GLAUDE
Forest Simmons wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Dave Ketchum wrote:
Further, if we frown
, for the words
were not insulting in American English.
BTW, to Craig: you need to remember that what works for you at home is
not necessarily workable here.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
might be a good stepping-stone, after all?
You have yet to show that IRV provides any benefit over Condorcet.
AGREED.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would
their
desires more completely - which OFTEN makes a difference.
Bart
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want
.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see http
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:11:32 -0800 (PST) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Dave Ketchum wrote:
IRV is not as similar to runoff as some claim - at runoff time I know the
result of the original vote; with IRV I must do all of my ranking at
one time.
For sincere voters, i.e
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:28:52 -0800 Ernest Prabhakar wrote:
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the input, very helpful. More comments below:
On Jan 27, 2004, at 7:29 PM, Dave Ketchum wrote:
I like what Ernest writes, though I see a bit of room for improvement
and suggest tournament as a less foreign
significant ranking.
That is my 2 cents worth for now.
Chris
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:09:00 -0800 (PST) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Dave Ketchum wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:11:32 -0800 (PST) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004, Dave Ketchum wrote:
IRV is not as similar to runoff as some claim - at runoff time I know
other candidates
may be listed.
NOTE: We need extra effort on Condorcet vs IRV because these two are similar.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want
justify giving A a win, when most voters agree B is better?
Could be A is anti-abortion and B is prochoice. C agrees with B as
to prochoice but disagrees with B as to some social security detail.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:11:35 -0500 (EST) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
How does IRV justify giving A a win, when most voters agree B is better?
(Minus the backstory:)
So you insist on leaving out my message, making the example empty.
40 A
29 B
31 C,B
A has greater depth
by the other parties.
Therefore, my country is quite a good example of the democratic power to citizen ;-)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list
Doreen - please get help to attend to telling us in the email:
Who you are replying to, such as James G.
When they wrote.
Which are their words, and which are yours.
Without these, it gets too confusing for anything except a 2-person
conversation.
Dave Ketchum.
On Tue, 16 Mar
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
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On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:03:18 -0800 (PST) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004, Dave Ketchum wrote:
Original Message
From: Bart Ingles [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: EM List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EM] Argument for Approval Primaries
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 09:49:40 -0800
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:49:15 -0500 Adam Tarr wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
If a method is good enough to select a single winner in the general
election, then it must be good enough, and most logical choice, for
use in related primaries.
It does not follow. An general election is a method
? Because that would be the most likely outcome if you
use Condorcet.
We surely don't need perfect PR in a primary, but some degree of PR is
necessary, or producing more than one winner is often almost pointless.
-Adam
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Dave Ketchum
to be simple, considering using the same method as
in the general election qualifying as simple to learn.
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:47:40 -0500 Adam Tarr wrote:
There's really only one issue left worth discussing in this thread, so
I'll cut the rest out:
Dave Ketchum wrote and I responded, et cetera
counts at end of election.
BTW - the right should be enough to ensure compliance by most vendors;
average voter is unable to do such inspection but a group of voters could
pay someone willing and able.
Cheers,
- Jan
--
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Dave
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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could be written and used which appeared
to conform, but destroyed secrecy and, perhaps, found a way to falsify
ballot counts.
Dave Ketchum
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 01:12:03 -0500Adam Tarr wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
How about leaning on IMPORTANT topics:
How well do these schemes attend to voter
)/3
Is (2)/3
Is +.7
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election
. While this method sounds simple, how do I vote
among LIKE, who I obviously approve, HATE, who I obviously skip, and COMP,
who I want to show as preferable to HATE, but NOT to aid COMP possibly
beating LIKE?
--
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Dave Ketchum 108
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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other methods, for that matter.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election
above puzzles - most of this thread is about
President and EC, which does not care much about how many parties.
Electing House and Senate is where duopoly gets active, and where
ranked ballots could do some good.
- Curt
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Dave
?
Curt
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
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?
Curt
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods mailing list - see
On Sat, 01 May 2004 22:16:04 -0500 Adam Tarr wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
Adam seems to dream of some magic that would make an amendment doable:
His magic is not convincing.
I never said That the change I suggest would make passing an amendment a
snap. You made a specific point, and I
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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country with such silly limit?
David GLAUDE
Dave Ketchum wrote:
Presently we vote for the parties that comprise the Knesset
separately from the PM. I should like to see voter ratings of 1 -
120 (120 corresponding to the number of seats in the Knesset) for the
parties that are contending for seats
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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that there is no reason to vote away from their desires.
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quantities.
Mike Ossipoff
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
Election-methods
of what is normally election methods
business. Perhaps one could be in power while considering taxes; another
while considering spending?
Chris Benham
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
their preferences, they can steal the election for B.
PROVIDED they have perfect information:
To few and they get nothing.
Too many and C wins - the voting pattern suggests this would be a
catastrophe and whoever proposed it better hide in a hole.
...
Dave Ketchum wrote:
If this argument
, or require
foreknowledge of greater precision than possible with polling data.
Also, Dave Ketchum wrote:
PROVIDED they have perfect information:
To few and they get nothing.
Too many and C wins - the voting pattern suggests this would be a
catastrophe and whoever proposed it better
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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Around and around.
Seems like our proper position is that each of these are too crippled to
deserve being adopted as new by any public election.
Which leaves promoting better understanding between Condorcet and these,
and anything else with tolerable health.
Dave Ketchum
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 04
.
Then a second place where only what is agreed on gets stored (perhaps
multiple versions side by side when agreement does not exist.
--
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Forest Simmons wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Dave Ketchum wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Forest Simmons wrote:
If I understand correctly, Beat Path, Ranked Pairs, MinMax, and all of the
other serious Condorcet methods are in agreement (except
including such activity should be required to have
their own NON-conflicting names.
Some of what I read implies the voter specifying a threshold,
dividing ranks into better and worse - I do not object to ballots with
this feature also being called Condorcet.
END
Dave Ketchum
On Wed, 9 Jun
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:49:17 +0100 James Gilmour wrote:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
To anyone else reading, my claim is:
With the Condorcet method(s), the voter ranks all candidates
liked better than last (optionally including ranking last).
I asked:
Is it necessary for a voter to rank ALL
a class of methods - that is expected in
EM and, occasionally, something good comes of it, BUT:
Forest uses Condorcet in the group name.
I claim that word should be reserved for methods using the ranked
ballots I (and others) expect for Condorcet methods.
Dave Ketchum
On Thu, 10 Jun 2004
]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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PROTECTED]people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek
Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
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not liking IRV, I DO NOT like adding this complication to it.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work
I get dizzy on his one but, if a majority of voters prefer B, why do they
not simply vote B, and quit talking about strategy?
Dave Ketchum
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:38:36 +0200 Jobst Heitzig wrote:
Markus mentioned Pattanaiks work on strategy-proofness, and I read the
book in the meantime
On un, 13 Jun 2004 05:51:13 +0200 (CEST) Kevin Venzke wrote in part:
Chris,
First of all it seems you won someone over; congratulations:
Dave Ketchum wrote:
If two voters rank
A=B, the effect should be the same as if one ranked AB and the other
ranked BA.
Dave didn't say anything about no votes
James Green-Armytage wrote:
Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
For what follows voting is:
1 X (A or B or C)
3 D
3 T (troublemakers)
Without equal rankings T votes are scattered to A, B, C, and D wins
OOPS - T votes go to such as ABC, so X wins as they desire, but they get
no special credit
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:37:41 +0200 (CEST) Kevin Venzke wrote:
Dave,
--- Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Dave Ketchum wrote:
If two voters rank
A=B, the effect should be the same as if one ranked AB and the other
ranked BA.
Dave didn't say anything about no votes for truncated
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:08:35 +0200 (CEST) Kevin Venzke wrote:
Dave,
--- Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
If two voters rank
A=B, the effect should be the same as if one ranked AB and the other
ranked BA.
If you want this behavior then you have to use Margins.
Sez WHO?
Sez anybody
a present of about 10 votes.
Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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,
--- Dave Ketchum [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
If the voter leaves two candidates unranked,
don't count that as a half vote for each, count it
as zero for each. But if the voter explicitly ranks
two candidates as equal, count that as a half vote
for each.
Since you argue for it, I want to name
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
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of doing and understanding?
Dave Ketchum
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:30:49 -0400 James Green-Armytage wrote:
Dear election methods fans,
Heavens, this is strange... this is the longest gap I've experienced
since I've been on the list. Is everyone at the beach or something? I hope
so, I guess; that's
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:35:00 -0400 James Green-Armytage wrote:
James Green-Armytage here, replying to Dave Ketchum.
Is this method worth the pain?
There is no pain involved. You are simply giving the voters the option of
supplementing their ranking info with ratings. If they don't feel like
be enough work to deserve a little pay (but the passing
on passes on ALL the relevant voting power).
Dave Ketchum
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 00:21:51 -0400 James Green-Armytage wrote:
Stephane Rouillon wrote:
I cross-read all your stuff and I did not see anything about my main
preocupation (not problem
I do not like the word runoff for Condorct, so offer:
Condorcet (ignoring cycles):
Count ranked ballots as in a tournament among all candidates.
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
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Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026
Do to no one what you would not want done to you.
If you want peace, work for justice.
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comments.
Election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
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