Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Hi all: My two cents: in my opinion, the semi rolling release is a good idea, but not to change the whole base system. Recreating thousands of packages is not a task that can be done in an evening, so I think that Debian should be used as base system. Maybe define a "fixed, non-rolling" base system, which is updated each, let's say, 6 or 12 months, and other package group as rolling, kept always updated. El 16/07/13 23:44, Albert Palacios escribió: I like the idea of a "semi" rolling release. Software like "Geary" or "Files" can't be frozen during the whole next cycle, can you imagine not receiving the "search mail" update until Luna+1? Right now I don't feel like Elementary is Beta, yes there are bugs that must be fixed, but it is great to know that every now an then your OS improves by itself, update manager feels like magic. My biggest concern is about the old libraries in Ubuntu 12.04, Elementary won't attract software developers without updated libraries. This can be a handicap if developers prefer the software center from Ubuntu and their new "QT" IDE. If elementary wants to be easy and different, a rolling release or a semi rolling release can be revolutionary. Despite it is not new, it looks innovative for non technical people. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Sergio Tortosa Benedito < [email protected]> wrote: If we had to change distribution one of the most important to discuss would be which type of packages should be used (rpm, deb ...) and whether we want elementary as rolling release or not. Now my two cents, if I had to choose one package management one option to keep in mind would be pisi, it seems to me a great package type (it's written in python and the packages use xml and python) while I don't really like the fact that it is written in python, xml and python should be very easy to use. However, I would really like to see elementary as half-rolling release, this is, the core (audio, graphics) are frozen and only updates to fix security problems, however the other components follow the traditional rolling release model. Maybe it would be better if this roling release would be a conservative one.With rolling release we could "delete" versions.Also, rolling release would be more on pair on elementary's launch model "when it's ready". El mar, 9 de jul 2013 a las 11:07 ,Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff < [email protected]> escribió: ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. +1 People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up for a lecture on "Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your technology". -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Nos leemos RASTER(Linux user #228804) [email protected] http://www.rastersoft.com -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I like the idea of a "semi" rolling release. Software like "Geary" or "Files" can't be frozen during the whole next cycle, can you imagine not receiving the "search mail" update until Luna+1? Right now I don't feel like Elementary is Beta, yes there are bugs that must be fixed, but it is great to know that every now an then your OS improves by itself, update manager feels like magic. My biggest concern is about the old libraries in Ubuntu 12.04, Elementary won't attract software developers without updated libraries. This can be a handicap if developers prefer the software center from Ubuntu and their new "QT" IDE. If elementary wants to be easy and different, a rolling release or a semi rolling release can be revolutionary. Despite it is not new, it looks innovative for non technical people. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Sergio Tortosa Benedito < [email protected]> wrote: > If we had to change distribution one of the most important to discuss > would be which type of packages should be used (rpm, deb ...) and whether > we want elementary as rolling release or not. > > Now my two cents, if I had to choose one package management one option to > keep in mind would be pisi, it seems to me a great package type (it's > written in python and the packages use xml and python) while I don't really > like the fact that it is written in python, xml and python should be very > easy to use. > > However, I would really like to see elementary as half-rolling release, > this is, the core (audio, graphics) are frozen and only updates to fix > security problems, however the other components follow the traditional > rolling release model. Maybe it would be better if this roling release > would be a conservative one.With rolling release we could "delete" > versions.Also, rolling release would be more on pair on elementary's launch > model "when it's ready". > > El mar, 9 de jul 2013 a las 11:07 ,Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff < > [email protected]> escribió: > > ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as >> many platforms as possible. >> It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. >> > > +1 > > People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up > for a lecture on "Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your > technology". > > -- > Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff > OS architect @ elementary > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
If we had to change distribution one of the most important to discuss would be which type of packages should be used (rpm, deb ...) and whether we want elementary as rolling release or not. Now my two cents, if I had to choose one package management one option to keep in mind would be pisi, it seems to me a great package type (it's written in python and the packages use xml and python) while I don't really like the fact that it is written in python, xml and python should be very easy to use. However, I would really like to see elementary as half-rolling release, this is, the core (audio, graphics) are frozen and only updates to fix security problems, however the other components follow the traditional rolling release model. Maybe it would be better if this roling release would be a conservative one.With rolling release we could "delete" versions.Also, rolling release would be more on pair on elementary's launch model "when it's ready". El mar, 9 de jul 2013 a las 11:07 ,Sergey Shnatsel Davidoff escribió: ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. +1 People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up for a lecture on "Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your technology". -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
> > ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as > many platforms as possible. > It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. > +1 People who are not convinced and want more info on the topic can hit me up for a lecture on "Why it's important to have downstreams and spread your technology". -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Daniel Foré wrote: > While neither us nor Ubuntu seem to want to align with the full GNOME stack > any longer, we are a little bit closer as far as Gtk/Vala/Mutter/Clutter/etc. Actually elementary is not patching existing gnome components leading to unexpected behavior. Addition and removal components from GNOME stack should be fine as long as the leftover gnome components don't start acting up. > There does seem to be some concerns about stuff like SystemD, Wayland, etc > and what our > full future stack may be. So I think we should definitely keep our minds open. If I had to put in my two cents, I would suggest to stick to upstream GNOME as much as possible esp when it comes to lower level components like wayland and systemd. Those are components which need lots of time, expertise and patience to work on. It would be in best interest of elementary to use the GNOME base and add it's own apps, system integration components on top of it. Like contractor, granite, panetheon etc. As far as I know, the aim of elementary was to provide an excellent user experience, which I see still exists. Elementary should focus on tightly integrated desktop just like gnome is doing. > That said, I'm not sure the best approach is to just throw out tons of > packages and see what > sticks. It might be better to discuss exactly what our ideal stack consists > of and > then re-evaluate who offers what is closest to that. ...but it is a good idea to make elementary packages available on as many platforms as possible. It gives more publicity and more chances of finding newer developers. - Manish -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I basically wanted to say what Christian said, but I see your point as well. While neither us nor Ubuntu seem to want to align with the full GNOME stack any longer, we are a little bit closer as far as Gtk/Vala/Mutter/Clutter/etc. There does seem to be some concerns about stuff like SystemD, Wayland, etc and what our full future stack may be. So I think we should definitely keep our minds open. That said, I'm not sure the best approach is to just throw out tons of packages and see what sticks. It might be better to discuss exactly what our ideal stack consists of and then re-evaluate who offers what is closest to that. Best Regards, Daniel Foré El jul 9, 2013, a las 10:09 a.m., Conscious User escribió: > > Em Ter, 2013-07-09 às 18:42 +0200, Christian Dywan escreveu: >> A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the >> shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding Contractor… > > I am a GNOME user, and I can assure you that it's not the same thing. > > Elementary forks, adds, and removes, while ubuntu patches and modifies. > More importantly, Ubuntu sometimes patches and modifies without changing > APIs and namespaces, so app developers sometimes expect one thing and > have another. That's the main issue. > > If an app developer uses Mutter documentation to access Gala > and something goes wrong, that's his fault. > > If an app developer uses Shell documentation to access Pantheon > and something goes wrong, that's his fault. > > If an app developer has non-documented rendering differences > due to Ubuntu patches, despite doing exactly what the GTK > documentation tells him to, that's *not* his fault. > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 On 9 Jul 2013 18:09, "Conscious User" wrote: > > Em Ter, 2013-07-09 às 18:42 +0200, Christian Dywan escreveu: > > A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the > > shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding > Contractor… > > I am a GNOME user, and I can assure you that it's not the same thing. > > Elementary forks, adds, and removes, while ubuntu patches and modifies. > More importantly, Ubuntu sometimes patches and modifies without changing > APIs and namespaces, so app developers sometimes expect one thing and > have another. That's the main issue. > > If an app developer uses Mutter documentation to access Gala > and something goes wrong, that's his fault. > > If an app developer uses Shell documentation to access Pantheon > and something goes wrong, that's his fault. > > If an app developer has non-documented rendering differences > due to Ubuntu patches, despite doing exactly what the GTK > documentation tells him to, that's *not* his fault. > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Em Ter, 2013-07-09 às 18:42 +0200, Christian Dywan escreveu: > A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the > shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding Contractor… I am a GNOME user, and I can assure you that it's not the same thing. Elementary forks, adds, and removes, while ubuntu patches and modifies. More importantly, Ubuntu sometimes patches and modifies without changing APIs and namespaces, so app developers sometimes expect one thing and have another. That's the main issue. If an app developer uses Mutter documentation to access Gala and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer uses Shell documentation to access Pantheon and something goes wrong, that's his fault. If an app developer has non-documented rendering differences due to Ubuntu patches, despite doing exactly what the GTK documentation tells him to, that's *not* his fault. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Am 09.07.2013 11:18, schrieb Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff: > I share Conscious User's concerns. In fact, bazaar is in exactly the > same situation now. Canonical has limited resources and they have to > choose where to allocate them. > > Moreover, the status of GNOME stack in Ubuntu repos is already > daunting. The indicator API split, the online accounts split, the > fallback stack split, the systemd split, now the display server split > - they all make Ubuntu more and more incompatible with upstream. A GNOME user will say exactly the same about Elementary. Ditching the shell, forking the window manager, discarding all apps, adding Contractor… More seriously, I rather doubt that Elementary's target audience is the kind that thinks about system level customizations before even installing the distro. I don't see anything good in trying to go for lots of base systems. ciao, Christian -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
This is the thread I was referring to where he was discussing bugs and how XMir is a poor approach for an entire desktop: https://plus.sandbox.google.com/115606635748721265446/posts/jdbSVidJyWH My syncing comment was just referring to the fact that as XMir simply houses an X server and directs its output to a surface, and so provides none of the tear-free advantages that Wayland (and ultimately Mir) were designed for. The comments on that G+ thread are particularly interesting, and it's worth noting that XWayland (which is comparable to XMir) is not even being considered for a full desktop, not even as a stop gap. It exists to support individual legacy X applications on Wayland only... because it's way too flakey, buggy and performance hitting to run such a compatibility layer for your desktop. On 9 July 2013 10:02, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff wrote: > Luke Benstead, the info about frame sync issues in XMir is EXACTLY what I > feared. Could you post a link to the original post by KWin developer to the > thread about Mir? It should be right next to this one. > > -- > Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff > OS architect @ elementary > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Yeah, i'm going to bring it up again. Don't kill me.
Why not just use something like LibAppImage that handles all the
dependencies and produces a distro-independent binary. PPA's are powerful
and I understand that, but even with LibAppImage it can take a package from
a PPA download any missing dependencies from a base system and bundle them.
It's early in the AM so forgive me.
But essentially you could just build a base system with Fedora, Debian, etc
etc. Then distribute the eOS Apps via LibAppImage Binaries and they would
work across all platforms. PPA's are great don't get me wrong. But being
able to download one simple binary file for an app is even more awesome; or
build that app binary. Especially when becoming distro-agnostic.
[1] https://github.com/probonopd/AppImageKit
[2] http://portablelinuxapps.org/docs/1.0/AppImageKit.pdf
{3]
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/07/distro-agnostic-packaging-making-appimages
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff <
[email protected]> wrote:
> I share Conscious User's concerns. In fact, bazaar is in exactly the same
> situation now. Canonical has limited resources and they have to choose
> where to allocate them.
>
> Moreover, the status of GNOME stack in Ubuntu repos is already daunting.
> The indicator API split, the online accounts split, the fallback stack
> split, the systemd split, now the display server split - they all make
> Ubuntu more and more incompatible with upstream.
>
> But I have a plan!
>
> My idea is to get our packages into all distros we're interested in as
> potential base distros by providing packager's documentation (started at
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrzhK7j3ljgAeYVgbQtdc7OHdMhjkn5f143XDyUMPDc/edit)
> and organizing a sprint/hackfest (
> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/packaging-hackfest-luna).
>
>
> With that done, we can easily trick people into making pantheon spins of
> the relevant base distros. This way we'll have several "backup" spins of
> Luna which we'll be able to easily make our main OS if needed.
>
> --
> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
> OS architect @ elementary
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> Post to : [email protected]
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
--
*--**--**
Chris Timberlake*
Technical Architect
Phone: 515-707-5109
[email protected]
--
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
Post to : [email protected]
Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
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Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 Tricking other distros...great idea! :P On Jul 9, 2013 3:23 PM, "Craig" wrote: > +1 > On Jul 9, 2013 12:03 AM, "Conscious User" wrote: > >> >> Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of >> your replies seem to be relevant or even directly >> related to what I said. >> >> >> Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: >> > If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary >> > video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any >> > non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver >> > wrote: >> > My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable >> > and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver >> > wrote: >> > PPAs. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm >> > developing had >> > some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu >> > overlay scrollbars >> > were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu >> > developers, I was >> > told that my best chance was to patch the >> > scrollbars myself >> > because no one was currently working on them. >> > >> > This is a symptom of something that, for >> > anyone who's been >> > following the Ubuntu developer community, >> > should be quite >> > evident at this point: due to the move to QML >> > and touch, GTK >> > and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been >> > using will now be >> > second-class citizens, and it is only a matter >> > of time before >> > this change of status starts to gradually >> > creep into overall >> > stability and speed of fixing bugs. >> > >> > This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu >> > simply packaged >> > and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the >> > problem is that >> > they ship a patched stack mixed with >> > unpolished Ayatana >> > projects which might now never get any more >> > polish. And this >> > might get worse with the move to Mir, as >> > Canonical will probably >> > need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by >> > itself. >> > >> > My intention here is not to question any >> > direction Canonical >> > is taking, but to question how much it still >> > makes sense to >> > build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a >> > distro that >> > uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least >> > one that still >> > treats it as a first-class citizen. >> > >> > It might be a good time to have a serious >> > discussion on this. >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Mailing list: >> > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> > Post to : >> > [email protected] >> > Unsubscribe : >> > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> > More help : >> > https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Cody Garver >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Cody Garver >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Cody Garver >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> Post to : [email protected] >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-de
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
+1 On Jul 9, 2013 12:03 AM, "Conscious User" wrote: > > Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of > your replies seem to be relevant or even directly > related to what I said. > > > Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: > > If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary > > video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any > > non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver > > wrote: > > My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable > > and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver > > wrote: > > PPAs. > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm > > developing had > > some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu > > overlay scrollbars > > were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu > > developers, I was > > told that my best chance was to patch the > > scrollbars myself > > because no one was currently working on them. > > > > This is a symptom of something that, for > > anyone who's been > > following the Ubuntu developer community, > > should be quite > > evident at this point: due to the move to QML > > and touch, GTK > > and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been > > using will now be > > second-class citizens, and it is only a matter > > of time before > > this change of status starts to gradually > > creep into overall > > stability and speed of fixing bugs. > > > > This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu > > simply packaged > > and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the > > problem is that > > they ship a patched stack mixed with > > unpolished Ayatana > > projects which might now never get any more > > polish. And this > > might get worse with the move to Mir, as > > Canonical will probably > > need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by > > itself. > > > > My intention here is not to question any > > direction Canonical > > is taking, but to question how much it still > > makes sense to > > build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a > > distro that > > uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least > > one that still > > treats it as a first-class citizen. > > > > It might be a good time to have a serious > > discussion on this. > > > > > > > > -- > > Mailing list: > > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > > Post to : > > [email protected] > > Unsubscribe : > > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > > More help : > > https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cody Garver > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cody Garver > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cody Garver > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
On 09-07-13 11:18, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff wrote: > My idea is to get our packages into all distros we're interested in as > potential base distros by providing packager's documentation (started at > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrzhK7j3ljgAeYVgbQtdc7OHdMhjkn5f143XDyUMPDc/edit) > and organizing a sprint/hackfest > (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/packaging-hackfest-luna). > > With that done, we can easily trick people into making pantheon spins of > the relevant base distros. This way we'll have several "backup" spins of > Luna which we'll be able to easily make our main OS if needed. Of course this is a great idea... not only to as a backup plan for the base distro (Ubuntu). But also for spreading elementary and hopefully attracting new users and developers. However, one of the prerequisites is the availability of releases. With Luna getting ever nearer this is becoming less of an issue. But certain core apps (like gala) don't have any releases at this point in time. The next step is to move on to Luna+1, since the current library based for Luna is getting a bit old, while other distro's move on to keep up with new upstream releases (think Gtk+ 3.8 etc...). Pim Vullers (packaging elementary for Gentoo Linux) -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I share Conscious User's concerns. In fact, bazaar is in exactly the same situation now. Canonical has limited resources and they have to choose where to allocate them. Moreover, the status of GNOME stack in Ubuntu repos is already daunting. The indicator API split, the online accounts split, the fallback stack split, the systemd split, now the display server split - they all make Ubuntu more and more incompatible with upstream. But I have a plan! My idea is to get our packages into all distros we're interested in as potential base distros by providing packager's documentation (started at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PrzhK7j3ljgAeYVgbQtdc7OHdMhjkn5f143XDyUMPDc/edit) and organizing a sprint/hackfest ( https://blueprints.launchpad.net/elementaryos/+spec/packaging-hackfest-luna). With that done, we can easily trick people into making pantheon spins of the relevant base distros. This way we'll have several "backup" spins of Luna which we'll be able to easily make our main OS if needed. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Luke Benstead, the info about frame sync issues in XMir is EXACTLY what I feared. Could you post a link to the original post by KWin developer to the thread about Mir? It should be right next to this one. -- Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff OS architect @ elementary -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
People can add PPAs to Debian, but unfortunately Launchpad doesn't support Debian releases as a target[1]. That said, using the Precise target on Stable etc. should work. There are other options though, if Elementary considered Fedora as a base distro (which has an awesome up-to-date GNOME stack), then you could make use of the Koji build system[2] for building packages. It's not quite as nice as a PPA (you still need to host the built packages in a repository somewhere) but the majority of the work is done. My opinion is that from now on, each Ubuntu release will get more and more incompatible with GNOME upstream (Mir being the #1 issue, but also not using SystemD is going to start causing issues) and as Elementary is heavily reliant on technologies such as Gtk+ and Mutter it would be wise to start considering options. Perhaps even just getting a Fedora/Debian based spin of Elementary going so that a transition later wouldn't be so much work. If Luna + 1 continues to base on Ubuntu, then I'm hoping that Gtk+ is at least compiled with Wayland support (as it is now) because then you could update Pantheon for Wayland and everything should work smoothly. If not, and everything is forced to run through XMir, then you are not going to benefit from the frame syncing magic that's inherent in Wayland and Mir, and you'll end up with loads of weird edge case bugs[3] and potentially issues with multi monitor support[4], and of course a lack of support from upstream Gtk+. Just my 2p Luke. [1] This has always seemed wrong to me as it prevents developers targeting upstream [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Koji [3] The KWin developer has already spotted this in action [4] I think this is being worked on... On 9 July 2013 06:18, Conscious User wrote: > > But I'm talking about moving away from Ubuntu as > a base distro, not moving away from Launchpad. > > Don't people add PPAs to Debian already? > > > Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 22:09 -0700, Manish Sinha escreveu: > > I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. > > > > It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use > > that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by > > the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a > > breeze. > > > > Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or > > testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just > > too damn attractive. > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
But I'm talking about moving away from Ubuntu as a base distro, not moving away from Launchpad. Don't people add PPAs to Debian already? Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 22:09 -0700, Manish Sinha escreveu: > I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. > > It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use > that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by > the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a > breeze. > > Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or > testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just > too damn attractive. -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
I do get the gist of what Cody is saying. It's basically that the PPA ecosystem has so much potential and use that any other shortcomings of Ubuntu at the moment is negated just by the PPA ecosystem which makes delivering software to end users a breeze. Personally I would like that elementary is based on debian unstable or testing (if unstable is too unstable), but the PPA ecosystem is just too damn attractive. - Manish On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:03 PM, Conscious User wrote: > > Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of > your replies seem to be relevant or even directly > related to what I said. > > > Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: >> If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary >> video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any >> non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver >> wrote: >> My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable >> and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver >> wrote: >> PPAs. >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm >> developing had >> some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu >> overlay scrollbars >> were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu >> developers, I was >> told that my best chance was to patch the >> scrollbars myself >> because no one was currently working on them. >> >> This is a symptom of something that, for >> anyone who's been >> following the Ubuntu developer community, >> should be quite >> evident at this point: due to the move to QML >> and touch, GTK >> and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been >> using will now be >> second-class citizens, and it is only a matter >> of time before >> this change of status starts to gradually >> creep into overall >> stability and speed of fixing bugs. >> >> This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu >> simply packaged >> and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the >> problem is that >> they ship a patched stack mixed with >> unpolished Ayatana >> projects which might now never get any more >> polish. And this >> might get worse with the move to Mir, as >> Canonical will probably >> need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by >> itself. >> >> My intention here is not to question any >> direction Canonical >> is taking, but to question how much it still >> makes sense to >> build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a >> distro that >> uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least >> one that still >> treats it as a first-class citizen. >> >> It might be a good time to have a serious >> discussion on this. >> >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: >> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> Post to : >> [email protected] >> Unsubscribe : >> https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> More help : >> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cody Garver >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cody Garver >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cody Garver > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-com
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
Erm... I'm not sure how to answer this. None of your replies seem to be relevant or even directly related to what I said. Em Seg, 2013-07-08 às 23:27 -0500, Cody Garver escreveu: > If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary > video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any > non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver > wrote: > My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable > and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver > wrote: > PPAs. > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm > developing had > some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu > overlay scrollbars > were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu > developers, I was > told that my best chance was to patch the > scrollbars myself > because no one was currently working on them. > > This is a symptom of something that, for > anyone who's been > following the Ubuntu developer community, > should be quite > evident at this point: due to the move to QML > and touch, GTK > and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been > using will now be > second-class citizens, and it is only a matter > of time before > this change of status starts to gradually > creep into overall > stability and speed of fixing bugs. > > This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu > simply packaged > and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the > problem is that > they ship a patched stack mixed with > unpolished Ayatana > projects which might now never get any more > polish. And this > might get worse with the move to Mir, as > Canonical will probably > need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by > itself. > > My intention here is not to question any > direction Canonical > is taking, but to question how much it still > makes sense to > build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a > distro that > uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least > one that still > treats it as a first-class citizen. > > It might be a good time to have a serious > discussion on this. > > > > -- > Mailing list: > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : > [email protected] > Unsubscribe : > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : > https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > -- > Cody Garver > > > > > -- > Cody Garver > > > > > -- > Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
If anyone is an opponent of GNOME tech right now it's proprietary video driver developers. Those are concrete issues that affect any non-Intel GPU user. I haven't seen any hostility from Ubuntu. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Cody Garver wrote: > My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse > any popular sentiment right now. > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver wrote: > >> PPAs. >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had >>> some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars >>> were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was >>> told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself >>> because no one was currently working on them. >>> >>> This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been >>> following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite >>> evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK >>> and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be >>> second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before >>> this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall >>> stability and speed of fixing bugs. >>> >>> This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged >>> and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that >>> they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana >>> projects which might now never get any more polish. And this >>> might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably >>> need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. >>> >>> My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical >>> is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to >>> build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that >>> uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still >>> treats it as a first-class citizen. >>> >>> It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>> Post to : [email protected] >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cody Garver >> > > > > -- > Cody Garver > -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
My sentence ran out of fuel there. PPAs are immensely valuable and eclipse any popular sentiment right now. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Cody Garver wrote: > PPAs. > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User > wrote: > >> >> Hi all, >> >> Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had >> some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars >> were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was >> told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself >> because no one was currently working on them. >> >> This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been >> following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite >> evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK >> and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be >> second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before >> this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall >> stability and speed of fixing bugs. >> >> This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged >> and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that >> they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana >> projects which might now never get any more polish. And this >> might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably >> need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. >> >> My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical >> is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to >> build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that >> uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still >> treats it as a first-class citizen. >> >> It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. >> >> >> >> -- >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> Post to : [email protected] >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > > > > -- > Cody Garver > -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Elementary-dev-community] Moving Away From Ubuntu
PPAs. On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Conscious User wrote: > > Hi all, > > Some time ago, I have noticed that an app I'm developing had > some rendering issues only when the Ubuntu overlay scrollbars > were being used. When I took this to Ubuntu developers, I was > told that my best chance was to patch the scrollbars myself > because no one was currently working on them. > > This is a symptom of something that, for anyone who's been > following the Ubuntu developer community, should be quite > evident at this point: due to the move to QML and touch, GTK > and the rest of the stack Ubuntu had been using will now be > second-class citizens, and it is only a matter of time before > this change of status starts to gradually creep into overall > stability and speed of fixing bugs. > > This wouldn't be much of a problem if Ubuntu simply packaged > and shipped a vanilla GNOME stack, but the problem is that > they ship a patched stack mixed with unpolished Ayatana > projects which might now never get any more polish. And this > might get worse with the move to Mir, as Canonical will probably > need to add and maintain Mir support to GTK by itself. > > My intention here is not to question any direction Canonical > is taking, but to question how much it still makes sense to > build elementary on top of Ubuntu instead of a distro that > uses a more vanilla GNOME stack or at least one that still > treats it as a first-class citizen. > > It might be a good time to have a serious discussion on this. > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > -- Cody Garver -- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
