Re: [elm-discuss] Type Checking in non-Pure Languages

2016-06-13 Thread John Orford
I suppose, what I am getting at, is what do you lose when you lose the preciseness you get w purity. What's it feel like compared to Elm for example? Anyone have any anecdotes? On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 at 16:09 Joel McCracken wrote: > I think you get a lot of value. > > I

[elm-discuss] Type Checking in non-Pure Languages

2016-06-13 Thread John Orford
A little off topic, but how much bang for the buck does type checking get you in languages like Reason, OCaml and F# etc.? It's one of my favourite features in Elm, and I suspect you would lose a lot by relaxing purity - even though a major selling point of though those languages is of course the

Re: [elm-discuss] Static Tzpe Checking in Elm vs Java

2016-05-26 Thread John Orford
ol idea > > Zach > ᐧ > > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:56 AM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks for the answers guys, >> >> Summing up, because the language is more restricted (doesn't have a lot >> of the Java kitchen sink

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Elm-Material Collaboration

2016-06-16 Thread John Orford
+1 On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 at 19:00 Joe Terry wrote: > I am looking forward to working with your > *elm-mdl * > > > It is very well thought out and managed. You are obviously an experienced > and prepared OSS manager. > > > On Friday, April 1,

[elm-discuss] Static Tzpe Checking in Elm vs Java

2016-05-24 Thread John Orford
Can someone /wittily/ sum up the experience of type checking in Java vs something pure like Elm? I feel purity, preciseness and descriptiveness is the main difference somehow... Java is too long in the distant past for me, but it's something I love about Elm and never really cared for in

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Trying to understand the community overlap between Elm and Elixir

2016-07-27 Thread John Orford
> Elm on the backend is ultimately the way to go. A little tangential - have you seen this? http://noisycode.com/blog/2016/06/27/introducing-mlfe/ On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 at 18:15 Rex van der Spuy wrote: > > >> Can someone help clarify why Elixir is appealing to Elm

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: elm first impressions (and frustrations)

2016-08-01 Thread John Orford
> Just imagine a workflow where you change one model working in the front end and the compiler throws and error that the back-end does not implement what you need. +1 On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 at 09:57 Peter Damoc wrote: > Zach, > > Of course being backend agnostic is an amazing

Re: [elm-discuss] What concepts and models did you had to learn in order to be able to write good Elm code?

2016-08-11 Thread John Orford
the two themes I learned were: simplicity & accuracy simplicity: fewer concepts to learn than most languages accuracy: following on from simplicity, lack of 'features' to shoot yourself in the foot, leads to type checking and guarantee goodness On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 at 16:59 Leroy Campbell

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: [ANN] elm-mdl 7.0.0 — supports all components of Material Design Lite

2016-08-03 Thread John Orford
Wow! On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 at 07:15 Max Goldstein wrote: > Seeing so many people adopt and contribute to this package is at least as > impressive as the code itself! Great job! > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Elm

Re: [elm-discuss] How would you generalise Elm?

2016-07-12 Thread John Orford
even values are functions (if we squint hard enough and think about church numerals etc. : ) so I would just amend, "everything's" a type or a function On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 at 12:26 Peter Damoc wrote: > I think you can reuse Haskell's generalization: "everything is a function"

Re: [elm-discuss] Czaplicki on Elixir Fountain

2016-07-12 Thread John Orford
at the end Elm mentions the technical similarity between Elm & Erlang - pity they didn't talk more about that... On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 at 13:48 Luis Arias <kaa...@gmail.com> wrote: > Nice! Thanks! > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 9:05 PM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.co

Re: [elm-discuss] Trying to understand the community overlap between Elm and Elixir

2016-07-17 Thread John Orford
My feeling is that their conception was at about the same time and had broadly the same goals. I.e. make complicated programs sane. On top of that, I see the adopters being similar. Those who are looking for a better way and open to new ideas. I agree with you. Elm has many nice features that

[elm-discuss] Czaplicki on Elixir Fountain

2016-07-11 Thread John Orford
Great interview https://soundcloud.com/elixirfountain/elixir-fountain-evan-czaplicki-2016-07-11 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Elm Discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: elm news

2016-06-29 Thread John Orford
yup really nice - well done, and thank you On Wed, 29 Jun 2016 at 11:16 Robert Walter wrote: > Instant bookmark ;) thanks! > > > On Wednesday, June 29, 2016 at 1:16:04 AM UTC+2, Jacob Oakes wrote: >> >> I just wanted to share a project that I have been working on

Re: [elm-discuss] An Evidence-Oriented Programming approach to designingElm

2016-07-09 Thread John Orford
there's a podcast about this https://www.functionalgeekery.com/episode-56-garrett-smith/ On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 at 21:34 Raoul Duke wrote: > See ppig.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Elm Discuss" group. > To unsubscribe

Re: [elm-discuss] What languages do you write your back-ends in?

2016-09-13 Thread John Orford
what libs do you use to that? how idiomatic is it in the end? On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 at 20:55 Eric G wrote: > Python at the moment (on Google App Engine), increasingly written in a > Elm-y/monadic style ;) > > > On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 12:36:03 PM UTC-4, John Mayer

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Any tricks for debugging?

2016-09-15 Thread John Orford
any ballpark guesses on when 0.18 will happen? before the end of the year perhaps? On Thu, 15 Sep 2016 at 21:37 Zinggi wrote: > You could wait some time on the 0.18 release which will most likely bring > back the time traveling debugger, with object introspection. > This

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Functional programming, or why should I use Elm instead of vanilla javaScript?

2016-10-07 Thread John Orford
what's the betting, typescript3 implements immutable data structures, and everyone will be cooing about them (like they are know with non-nullable types ; ) imo, immutability is the biggest missing feature in js... On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 at 00:06 Zinggi wrote: > > And all

Re: [elm-discuss] No Runtime Exceptions - Still not computing

2016-10-07 Thread John Orford
+1 Peter Elm forces you to explicitly handle failures - whereas you in many other languages the use of exception handling is optional. this freaks some people out, because it's so deeply baked in, that they can miss it's there at all : ) On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 at 09:32 Peter Damoc

Re: [elm-discuss] Elm, Objects and Components

2016-09-20 Thread John Orford
(I found MDL web components to be pretty hit and miss when used with Elm - perhaps that's changed since 0.16 - would love to hear more on this topic) On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 at 10:21 Richard Feldman wrote: > Or you can define a Web Component >>>

Re: [elm-discuss] PSA for beginners

2016-09-20 Thread John Orford
Thanks, this was really good. Really good. Really really good! On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 at 11:52, Peter Damoc wrote: > Watch Richard's talk from the elm-conf. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcgmSRJHu_8 > > Understanding the ideas presented there will improve your code in way that

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Convincing my team that Elm isn't just going to die like CoffeeScript

2016-11-07 Thread John Orford
I think *convincing* is besides the point. Tech comes and goes. I would rather read through the features of Elm, and make a checklist. Pure functions Immutability ADTs Explicitness (avoiding type classes and other abstractions) User friendliness ... If your team buys into these features, then

[elm-discuss] Modulus Error

2016-11-09 Thread John Orford
I get an error when I try 8 % 0 In 17.1. Is this old news? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Elm Discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to elm-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more

Re: [elm-discuss] Modulus Error

2016-11-09 Thread John Orford
Ahh, much quicker than me : ) On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 at 19:31 Janis Voigtländer <janis.voigtlaen...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, quite old news: https://github.com/elm-lang/core/issues/590 > > Am 09.11.2016 um 19:27 schrieb John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com>: > > I get an

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Is Elm really wrong?

2016-11-09 Thread John Orford
+1 On Wed, 9 Nov 2016 23:20 Kasey Speakman, wrote: > I read the article. > > Summary: "I expected Elm to be much more like Haskell, but it wasn't. > Therefore, I'm exerting all my saved-up anger." > > Meanwhile, I'm getting actual work done in Elm. > > Elm's not perfect,

[elm-discuss] Update Delay

2016-11-10 Thread John Orford
I have fallen into this trap a few times, 1) I update my model 2) The View doesn't change 3) Some other action occurs 4) My view changes with the first update My view is one step behind. I have fixed this before a few times (been a while ago). And rather than tinkering, I thought I would

Re: [elm-discuss] Is Elm really wrong?

2016-11-10 Thread John Orford
I remember hearing the creator of F# talk about their lack of type classes too - basically he didn't /want/ the abstractions you can have in Ocaml. On the other hand, listen to Haskell people talk about the lack of standardisation, it's a kitchen sink of optional abstractions. And hard to teach.

Re: [elm-discuss] why no more primes on 0.18 ?

2016-10-19 Thread John Orford
I am coming around to the make things as easy as possible for newbs approach. Elm is a big jump for people coming from JS, every little helps, including removing string syntax misinterpretations. Having said that, I suspect a total programming newcomer would find Elm right now easier than JS...

[elm-discuss] OT: Elm Style formatting for other languages?

2016-10-19 Thread John Orford
The standard elm code style is v nice - anyone know whether you can /similar/ styles to use with auto-formatters for other languages? I.e. very spread out, with no aversion to adding to LOC counts : ) Commas beginning lines etc. Perhaps not idiomatic in Python or JS, but new good ideas rarely are

Re: [elm-discuss] Metalinguistic abstractions over databases

2016-10-19 Thread John Orford
like graphql? On Wed, 19 Oct 2016 at 10:54 Peter Damoc wrote: > *The problem * > > I know how to implement a REST API and interrogate that API from Elm but > that *seams very low level. * > > I was curious about a language abstraction that would isolate my Elm > program from

Re: [elm-discuss] why no more primes on 0.18 ?

2016-10-23 Thread John Orford
, 23 Oct 2016 at 17:57 Bob Hutchison <hutch-li...@recursive.ca> wrote: > On Oct 19, 2016, at 2:59 AM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I am coming around to the make things as easy as possible for newbs > approach. > > Elm is a big jump for people comi

Re: [elm-discuss] 2 yr. quest to learn front-end programming

2016-10-24 Thread John Orford
Doug, I have been rereading the Evan's elm tutorial. Actually I don't think I read it before, so it has been enjoyable. I know Elm pretty OK, so my opinion about the tutorial is... Elm is a bit like Mario Kart. The basics are easy, and when you read the tutorial, you have covered a good 90% of

Re: [elm-discuss] What Elm needs to move forward

2016-11-24 Thread John Orford
On the perennial CSS-in-Elm topic - I think Elm's lack in this regard reflects a general lack of being able to do CSS in an elegant manner (correct me if I am wrong). I am pretty sure if there was a clear way to do CSS right generally, Elm would've jumped on that band wagon. Having said all

Re: [elm-discuss] What Elm needs to move forward

2016-11-24 Thread John Orford
Oliver, I understand. But... we are swimming in a sea of imperative programmers. A lot of FP is not obviously better for them. >From my POV, this is Elm's greatest strength and weakness. It would be so easy to be a PureScript and corner a hardcore niche, where 'power' is everything. Elm has a

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Elm's SSCCEs

2016-11-27 Thread John Orford
's shortcomings... there is no shortage of those: > https://gist.github.com/MichalZalecki/c964192f830360ce6361 > > > W dniu czwartek, 3 listopada 2016 10:23:29 UTC+1 użytkownik John Orford > napisał: > > We all love Elm, but when talking about it with people who know only JS, > are there

Re: [elm-discuss] 0.18 Below the Hood

2016-11-15 Thread John Orford
> let-bound values can be given type annotations that reference type variables from the top level that's v thoughtful actually, I hadn't heard that before, just local variables in any case, makes a lot of sense for tricky functions. is this an elm specific creation or do you also see it in

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Update Delay

2016-11-13 Thread John Orford
I've ever experienced and of which should be fairly > impossible. > > Do you have a simple reproduceable test-case that we can play with? > > > On Thursday, November 10, 2016 at 8:43:30 AM UTC-7, John Orford wrote: > > I have fallen into this trap a few times, > > 1) I update

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Update Delay

2016-11-13 Thread John Orford
My mistake! I was querying the previous list of strings rather than the updated one. Good exercise though, simplifying helped me find the bug On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 at 19:48, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> wrote: > I have attached a simple example. > > I have a model with

[elm-discuss] 0.18 Below the Hood

2016-11-14 Thread John Orford
Can anyone add to the headline features in the blog? *http://elm-lang.org/blog/the-perfect-bug-report * Just want to geek out, but too lazy to follow / look at Elm dev. Happy Elm Day. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to

[elm-discuss] Elm's SSCCEs

2016-11-03 Thread John Orford
We all love Elm, but when talking about it with people who know only JS, are there any nice Simple Self Contained Correct Examples, of JS' shortcomings and Elm's advantages. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Elm Discuss" group. To unsubscribe from

Re: [elm-discuss] Good Vibes

2016-10-16 Thread John Orford
at 12:01 PM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > I think we are almost past humming and hawing about whether to use Elm for > future projects. The caveats you hear about using Elm, will be ancient > history. > > What is the official, recommended and docum

Re: [elm-discuss] Elm Remote Meetup #3 Videos (and #4 tomorrow)

2016-10-16 Thread John Orford
I just started watching Soren's video - good stuff, keep it up - best of luck with Daily Drip also. I subscribed to your initial Elixir videos, they were v helpful. On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 at 03:12 Josh Adams wrote: > It took me almost the entire month to actually get this done

Re: [elm-discuss] Elm Test building custom generators

2016-10-16 Thread John Orford
Zach, did you find an answer for this in the end? On Sun, 28 Aug 2016 at 11:52 Zachary Kessin wrote: > I am banging my head against the elm-test fuzzer API. > > I have a record like this > > > type alias Location = > { id : String > , latitude : Float > ,

[elm-discuss] Good Vibes

2016-10-16 Thread John Orford
A few days ago I realised something - Elm is in a great place. This mailing list shows how good things are. And then yesterday I saw this very nice talk about the future of JavaScript... Jafar Husain is an engaging speaker. But the presentation was rounded out by this:

[elm-discuss] Ducked Inference

2016-11-29 Thread John Orford
I am in the middle of watching a video about 'ducked inference' in Ruby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3U1X3z0CE basically, static type checking / inference without the type annotations. The annotations will be kept in the background for compile time check, documentation or IDE purposes...

Re: [elm-discuss] Ducked Inference

2016-11-29 Thread John Orford
I think Matz is taking the 'compiler as assistant' idea to a logical conclusion. You know, the idea that compilers/interpreters shouldn't barf at you, but give you a helping hand to write your code, which is where Elm is at also! The thing is, I find it hard to how how this could work well in

[elm-discuss] Error Repository?

2016-12-06 Thread John Orford
Where do I send an, as a suggestion to improve the error message output? I accidentally swapped the inputs of a fold lambda, e.g. foldr (\ a c -> ... ) instead of foldr (\ c a -> ... ) which started complaining about infinite types etc, rather than(in this context at least) nudge me towards

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Emphasizing /r/elm more

2017-01-04 Thread John Orford
That struck me as well - I am going to switch my name to the real one, if I can on Reddit... On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 at 12:54 'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss < elm-discuss@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:51:28 AM UTC, Richard Feldman wrote: > > I don't think that makes

Re: [elm-discuss] elm-i18n: convert elm code to PO/CSV and back

2017-03-29 Thread John Orford
+1 - thanks for this On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 at 14:04 Felix Lamouroux wrote: > Hi folks, > > I have updated the elm-i18n tool to automatically convert between elm > source code and PO/CSV-files. > https://github.com/iosphere/elm-i18n > > > This is currently "only" a node CLI

Re: [elm-discuss] Systemic problem in Object Oriented languages

2017-07-20 Thread John Orford
I have minimised (almost 0% now) my use of this in JS, by using arrow functions. Perhaps 'this' is a bad example, they're an arcane artifact... Basically you're right, the guide isn't clear at best, wrong at worst : ) On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 at 10:52 Dave Ford wrote: > On

Re: [elm-discuss] Systemic problem in Object Oriented languages

2017-07-20 Thread John Orford
It's ambiguous, I also imagine it means avoiding: this.x = 123 But then again, why do you need 'this' in the first place? In Elm you can access anything in scope in the module. I suppose this is useful for accessing class stuff which isn't in your immediate method scope... which again leads you

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Moving on

2017-04-25 Thread John Orford
My 2c on above... 1) web components - once they're a standard they will be a must. Perhaps they feel like a necessity now (I am sold) but they're still in a flux, browsers support bits and pieces, some things haven't been finalised yet. Angular / Reacts / Vue's ad hoc implementations for their

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Moving on

2017-04-25 Thread John Orford
rand promise. > And when people are banging their heads against JavaScript interop issues > and leaving the ecosystem because of it, that makes the promises in that > regard seem particularly hollow. > > People are worried and frustrated. > > Mark > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 7:

Re: [elm-discuss] Moving on

2017-04-24 Thread John Orford
More info would be nice - just purely out of curiosity. If you have written about this elsewhere, pls pt this out. Thanks. On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 at 15:58 Juan Ibiapina wrote: > Good to know I'm not the only one with this feeling! > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Duane

Re: [elm-discuss] Announcement: (yet another) elm-gamepad

2017-08-08 Thread John Orford
nice one - I never heard about this spec before - v interesting! On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 at 11:07 Francesco Orsenigo wrote: > http://package.elm-lang.org/packages/xarvh/elm-gamepad/latest > > Gamepads cannot be implemented in pure Elm so I published a package and, > in

Re: [elm-discuss] New guidelines for posting on Elm-discuss

2017-05-05 Thread John Orford
I love your work Noah and appreciate the sentiment. But... I think elm-discuss is quite nice. I haven't seen anything egregious, and rather free form discussion rather than pointing people to the rule book every once in a while. >From my POV almost everyone comes with the right attitude here.

Re: [elm-discuss] New guidelines for posting on Elm-discuss

2017-05-05 Thread John Orford
I remember reading that post from Overmind and thinking it v odd. Maybe I am blind or have rose coloured glasses. Unsure whether Noah's rule book will help or hinder. But good that he cares. On Sat 6. May 2017 at 09:01, Mark Marlow wrote: > John, > > I tend to agree that

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Moving on

2017-04-30 Thread John Orford
This thread is really good imho. Uncomfortable? Perhaps. But everyone here has good intentions. >From my POV Elm ain't your usual throw-things-at-the-wall and see what sticks open source project, which is what makes it very very special. And therefore perhaps the community and our BDFL need to

Re: [elm-discuss] The Elm Discourse is Ready

2017-12-01 Thread John Orford
Great work! On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 at 16:30 Brian Hicks wrote: > Hey all, > > The Elm Discourse is now live at https://discourse.elm-lang.org. Hosting > has been graciously provided by discourse.org. You can log in with your > existing Google or GitHub accounts, or an email

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: ELM = JAVASCRIPT REINVENTED (PART 1)

2017-10-25 Thread John Orford
I think Elm is a very opinionated language - which lends itself to love & hate : ) Which is a good thing - languages in which you can do anything and everything are guey slimey things... On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 at 18:36 Charles Scalfani wrote: > Back in the day when Java was

Re: [elm-discuss] Re: ELM = JAVASCRIPT REINVENTED (PART 1)

2017-10-25 Thread John Orford
rive in an environment that is > too prickly. > > Also, businesses need gooey stuff because they deal with reality not with > some abstract world of ideas. > > > On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:19 PM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I think Elm is a