Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

Hi,

I had this discussion in several mailinglists but gave up.

But I am suprised to see this phenomenon in a emacs related (means:
"super nerdy") mailinglist, too.

So tell me please how do you handle this "problem"? Or do I setup
something wrong with my list account?

From my point of view, the problem is that most of you press "Reply
All" when answering to a mailinglist posting. But that is IMO wrong
because you answer to the list AND to the thread opener in that case.

So the thread opener receive two (nearly) identical messages.

Do you receive double mails? Doesn't it bother you?

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

There is a "Sender:" header entry I can filter on.

But I do not setup anything because I don't case the problem.

Btw: It is nice that all of you using Gnus and (maybe) a local
mailserver with powerfull filtering. I don't.

It is kind of a religious problem. :D

Isn't there a setting on the mailinglist site (e.g. mailman) that can
handle problems like this?

Kind

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 15:03 Maxim Nikulin  wrote:
> 1. Use "duplicate" sieve extension.
> [..]
> 
> 2. Just add filter
> [..]

This are workarounds but not solutions.

IMO the problem is the list user that "Answers to all".

Why should I modify my system because another one make errors?

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 11:10  wrote:
> I made myself quite a bit of work to explain to you what you can do.
> Even with a link to mailman docs on how you can set your subscription
> settings.

You did not. You wrote

> experiment with setting the Mail-Followup-To: header [1]

and pointed to
https://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html

The context of that "setting" is missing. I did not understand that
you wrote about mailman. You do not gave enough information but an
potentially insecure URL.

I couldn't find a setting named "Mail-Followup-To: header" but "Avoid
duplicate copies of messages?"

kind

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 20:57 Maxim Nikulin  wrote:
> openssl s_client --starttls sieve -connect posteo.de:sieve
> 
> "IMPLEMENTATION" "Dovecot Pigeonhole"

Great!

I knew and intensiv used "sieve" on my posteo.de Server.
But sieve-Support was unofficial and they simply deactivated it without
reason or any news about it.

I asked often and also by physical mail to the CEO of the company to
turn it on again. But no reaction. I never tried after that.

Now you gave the hint that it is activated again. Great. :)

I used a nice double-post-on-mailing-list-filter via this sieve file in
the past. But my problem was that it was deactivated.

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-11 14:58 Eric S Fraga  wrote:
> the org mode mailing list is open,

I never understood the benefit of an "open" mailinglist. But I am not
the center of the universe. ;)

> I am not trying to be snarky or rude

Your are not. Everything is fine.

> For other lists, the situation could
> be different, as it would be with newsgroups

Yeah, I think it is the root of my "problem". I am from the
usenet/newsgroups age. I miss it.

From my point of view mailinglists and web-forums are a step back in
usability and efficiency.

But there is just one exception (just IMO): StackExchange e.g.
StackOverflow. ;)

SHIFT-TAB not working in Windows-SSH-shell or Debian-tty (sometimes "M-[ ~ is undefined")

[c.buhtz]

X-Post: https://github.com/daviwil/emacs-from-scratch/issues/67

Hello together.

# Introduction

I am quite new to emacs and building my init.el based the "Emacs from
Scratch" (by System Crafter) videos. In org-mode I experience some wired
behavior of the SHIFT-TAB key when (un)folding headings in an
.org file.

# Problem

In some cases SHIFT-TAB creates a M-[ ~ is undefined message or simply
does not work without an error message.

# System

Debian 11
GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.24,
cairo version 1.16.0) of 2021-03-28, modified by Debian
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

# Minimal init.el

This can be used for reproduction.

;; === Package setup ===
(require 'package)
(setq package-archives '(("melpa" . "https://melpa.org/packages/;)
 ("org" . "https://orgmode.org/elpa/;)
 ("elpa" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/;)))
(package-initialize)

;; === use-package ==
;; use-package to simplify the config file
(unless (package-installed-p 'use-package)
  (package-refresh-contents)
  (package-install 'use-package))

(require 'use-package)
(setq use-package-always-ensure 't)

(use-package org)

# Description of the behavior in multiple cases

## Windows SSH-terminal

Form a Windows 10 client and its usual command prompt (not PowerShell,
not Terminal.app) I log into my machine via SSH and (of course) use
emacs in none-gui mode then. TAB works. But SHIFT-TAB produce the M-[ ~
is undefined error.

## A tty terminal (Debian 11)

Here TAB works. But S-TAB does not. The latter does not produce any
error message. There is simply no reaction on that button.

## Cases in where it is NOT reproducable

 - Gui mode in XFCE session on Debian 11
 - Terminal emulator (terminator) in a XFCE session on Debian 11
 - SSH terminal from Debian 11

## Sidenotes

There is a stackoverflow QA for this:
https://stackoverflow.com/q/3518846 The solution there does not work
for me (Emacs from Debian 11).

This problem is totally out of my scope of understanding.

Thanks in advance

Re: ox-publish: no HTML output but no errors

[c.buhtz]

Dear Max,

thank you for the hint.

On 2022-02-25 23:02 Max Nikulin  wrote:
> Some users may consider a broken link as a fatal error. If you need 
> different behavior, you can get it. See info "(org) Export Settings" 
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Export-Settings.html for "broken-links".

From the manual it is not clear for me how to set that option.
In-buffer is not an option for me. I tried to set it like this

(require 'ox-publish)
(setq org-publish-project-alist
  '(
   ("org-notes"
   :base-directory "~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam/"
   :base-extension "org"
   :publishing-directory "~/tab-cloud/_transfer/html"
   :recursive t
   :publishing-function org-html-publish-to-html
   :headline-levels 4 ; Just the default for this
project. :auto-preamble t
  )
  ("org-static"
   :base-directory "~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam/"
   :base-extension
"css\\|js\\|png\\|jpg\\|gif\\|pdf\\|mp3\\|ogg\\|swf"
:publishing-directory "~/tab-cloud/_transfer/html" :recursive t
   :publishing-function org-publish-attachment
  )
  ("org" :components ("org-notes" "org-static")
   :broken-links "mark"
   )
  )
)

But this has no effect.
I also tried to "(setq org-export-with_broken-links t)". But the
message keeps the same.

Unable to resolve link; aborting: "roam:git"

[c.buhtz]

In real I (try to) use ox-hug to export my org-files (org-roam-v2) to
markdown (and later to HTML).

After analyzing the my debug output [1] the ox-hugo people pointed me to
org-roam community because the error is "thrown" (correct term in
emas-lisp=?) by "org-export-resolve-fuzzy-link".

"org-export-with-broken-links" is set to "t" (checked via "C-h v").

It is my will that this link is dead. That is not an error for me in my
environment/workflow they are reminders for me.

This is the full debug output (incl. line numbers):

  1 Debugger entered--Lisp error: (org-link-broken "roam:git")
  2   signal(org-link-broken ("roam:git"))
  3   org-export-resolve-fuzzy-link((link (:type "fuzzy" :path
 "roam:git" :format bracket :raw-link "roam:git" :appli$
  4   #f(compiled-function (link) #)((link
 (:type "fuzzy" :path "roam:git" :format bracket :$
  5   #f(compiled-function (--data) #)((link
 (:type "fuzzy" :path "roam:git" :format bracket$
  6   mapc(#f(compiled-function (--data) #)
 (#("SSH-Key for Codeberg.org erstellen, um ohne $
  7   #f(compiled-function (--data) #)((paragraph (:begin 155 :end 294 :contents-begin 155 :$
  8   mapc(#f(compiled-function (--data) #)
 ((paragraph (:begin 155 :end 294 :contents-begin$
  9   #f(compiled-function (--data) #)((section (:begin 155 :end 295 :contents-begin 155 :co$
 10   mapc(#f(compiled-function (--data) #)
 ((section (:begin 155 :end 295 :contents-begin 1$
 11   #f(compiled-function (--data) #)((headline (:raw-value "Ziel" :begin 148 :end 295 :pre$
 12   mapc(#f(compiled-function (--data) #)
 ((section (:begin 1 :end 148 :contents-begin 1 :$
 13   #f(compiled-function (--data) #)((org-data nil (section (:begin 1 :end 148 :contents-b$
 14   org-element-map((org-data nil (section (:begin 1 :end 148
 :contents-begin 1 :contents-end 148 :post-blank 0 :po$
 15   org-hugo--get-pre-processed-buffer()
 16   org-hugo-export-wim-to-md(:all-subtrees)
 17   (save-current-buffer (set-buffer (find-file-noselect org-file))
 (message (format "[ox-hugo/export-all file %d/%$
 18   (let ((org-file (car --dolist-tail--))) (save-current-buffer
 (set-buffer (find-file-noselect org-file)) (messag$
 19   (while --dolist-tail-- (let ((org-file (car --dolist-tail--)))
 (save-current-buffer (set-buffer (find-file-nose$
 20   (let ((--dolist-tail-- org-files)) (while --dolist-tail-- (let
 ((org-file (car --dolist-tail--))) (save-current$
 21   (progn (message (format (if dont-recurse "[ox-hugo/export-all]
 Exporting %d files from %S .." "[ox-hugo/export-$
 22   (if (= 0 num-files) (message (format "No Org files found in %s"
 search-path)) (progn (message (format (if dont-$
 23   (let* ((org-files-root-dir (or org-files-root-dir
 default-directory)) (dont-recurse (or dont-recurse (and curre$
 24   ox-hugo/export-all("~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam")
 25   eval((ox-hugo/export-all "~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam") t)
 26   eval-expression((ox-hugo/export-all "~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam")
 nil nil 127)
 27   funcall-interactively(eval-expression (ox-hugo/export-all
 "~/tab-cloud/my.org-roam") nil nil 127)
 28   call-interactively(eval-expression nil nil)
 29   command-execute(eval-expression)


[1] -- 

Re: Communication problems and possible problems with the website

[c.buhtz]

On 2022-02-27 18:17 Bastien Guerry  wrote:
> My gut feeling is that we should focus on making the mailing list more
> accessible for beginners, more useful for everyone before considering
> setting up another communication channel.

I totally agree with that.

Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

[c.buhtz]

Dear folks,

I really have to apologize after sleeping one night over that topic. I
feel a bit ashamed or intimidated; not sure if these are the correct
terms to express my feelings.

In short: My goal was to learn not to troll!

On 2022-02-25 18:39 Bastien Guerry  wrote:
> I've removed the GitHub Sponsors and Paypal links from orgmode.org.

I am surprised that my comment caused such big changes. Of course I
appreciate them but I am a totally new and fresh user to the project in
the meaning I am not "important". But it speaks for the "vibes" of your
project and its flat hierarchies that you even take opinions like mine
into account so serious.

My initial "comment" about the GitHub-and-FSF-rules was just because
someone quoted that FSF rules. My goal with expressing my own
interpretation about that FSF-rules in context of your use of GitHub
was not to change/modify your project. I even do not know enough of
your internal rules and organization. I am not in position to tell
someone how to run their projects.

It was more a question about the current state (using GitHub in context
of the FSF rules) and the background of your decisions to learn more
about how to organize FOSS projects and FOSS rules. Let me say it again:
I tried to learn not to troll!

I definitely would say that the way I "asked" or expressed my humble
opinion about your GitHub-use was definitely wrong and to offensive. My
apologize again.

Thanks a lot for listen to me.
Christian

Intention of verbatim text?

[c.buhtz]

Hi,

in org you can have inline verbatim and code text elements like this.

Example with =verbatim= and ~code~.

I would like to understand what "verbatim" really means. What is the
semantic behind it? What content should go in there?


I'm aware of the separation of content and its presentation.
I'm also aware of the different renderings in my Emacs. Booth are
monotype but with different colors.

The org html export to create both with  tag. So in HTML output
there is no difference between verbatim and code anymore.

I also read a lot about the HTML tags code, pre, kbd and samp.

I wonder that maybe I totally misunderstand the intention of
"verbatim"?

The background of my question is that I have my own
org-to-html-converter [1] and try to decide how to treat =verbatim=.
Which HTML tag should I use.

Thanks
Christian

[1] -- 

Re: Intention of verbatim text?

[c.buhtz]

Thanks for all your feedback.

On 2023-01-04 05:58 Tim Cross  wrote:
> argue that =text= should be rendered as text

I did this before but then got them as paragraphs. Not sure how the
correct term of this is in HTML. pre is not inline but handled as an
own paragraph so that you have an extra line in the rendered HTML
output.

> markers/information for =textg=, so wrapping it in a semantic tag
> like  is IMO incorrect as we are imposing a semantic
> interpretation without justification.

I also agree that the current org html export is not specific enough
here.

My current solution is to convert ~code~ to code and
=verbatim= to verbatim.

In that case the user can decide himself how to render them. In my
default CSS I would render the ~code~ in monospace with a light gray
background (different from the whole page background) and =verbatim=
with monospace only but without extra background color.

Kind
Christian

Re: Bug: Inconsistent behaviour about inline markup

[c.buhtz]

Dear Timothy,

On 2023-01-15 14:22 Timothy  wrote:
> See .

Thanks a lot. That help to make my code consistent.

But please take this also as a BugReport (because there seems to be no
regular bug tracker for orgmode). I see no need to restrict the allowed
characters that way they are. PRE and POST should be the same.
The only one exception is [ for POST because I suspect this isn't
implementable via RegEx or would interfere with parsing of links.

Inline markup: How does org identify nested code/verbatim?

[c.buhtz]

Hi folks,

this is a question about org(mode) development itself.
It is magic to me how you do this. ;) And I would like to learn it
because I do write kind of an org parser in Python.

Here is a nested code-in-verbatim text.

This =is ~code~ in verbatim= text.

Exporting this to html (via org-html-export-as-html)

This is ~code~ in verbatim text.

Awsome! :D

The point is myself I'm able to identify code or verbatim with regex
including three catch groups for the content before, between and
after the inline markers.

for verbatim: "(^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"'])=(.*?)=([ .,;:\-?!)}\"']|$)"
for code: "(^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"'])~(.*?)~([ .,;:\-?!)}\"']|$)"
 
But they don't work together. In the example above I need to use the
verbatim regex first to make it right. 

If I would use the code regex first it wouldn't work because it would
find the ~code~ but without knowing that it is surrounded by ~verbatim~.

I don't know what my users inputs to my software: verbatim in code or
code in verbatim. So I have to figure out which regex to use first.

How does org solve this problem? I don't need a full working solution
but just an idea.

One approach in my mind is to run both regex separate and then compare
the results "somehow":

Verbatim: ['This', ' ', 'is ~code~ in verbatim', ' ', 'text.']
Code :['This =is', ' ', 'code', ' ', 'in verbatim= text.']

"Somehow"!

Another approach in my mind is to do something I would call nested
regex. Constructing a regex pattern looking for verbatim with code in
it. And the other way around of course.

Re: Inline markup: How does org identify nested code/verbatim?

[c.buhtz]

Please let me add the nested-regex-approach. I wouldn't call this a
solution but just an approach. No one understand that regex it is
nearly unmaintainable.

I hope for a more elegant solution.

This matches if we have code in verbatim
^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"']=.*?(?:^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"']~.*?~[.,;:\-?!)}\"']|$).*?=[ 
.,;:\-?!)}\"']|$

This matches if we have verbatim in code
(?:^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"']~.*?(?:^|[ .,;:\-?!({\"']=.*?=[.,;:\-?!)}\"']|$).*?~[ 
.,;:\-?!)}\"']|$)

If one of this matching I now which one of my "usual" regex pattern using 
catching groups to extract the content I should use first.

Just for testing (maybe on regex101.com) here is the text I used.

This =is ~code~ in verbatim= text.
This =is usual verbatim= text.

This ~is =verbatim= in code~ text.
This ~is usual code~ text.

Re: Source blocks are indented

[c.buhtz]

It is solved.

  (setq org-edit-src-content-indentation 0)

In the first place I used the help system wrong and couldn't find that
variable in my system.

Re: Source blocks are indented

[c.buhtz]

I did more research reducing my init.el and looking which line in it
does cause that behavior.

> (package-initialize)

That is the one and only line in my init.el. The behavior is
reproducible with this. Removing the line (init is empty then) the
behavior is not there.

I'm not sure what this command/function does. But I assume something
happens implicit with the packages installed.

What could it be?

Source blocks are indented

[c.buhtz]

Hello,

#+begin_src python
  import sys
#+end_src

This example shows a python source block in an org(roam) file. Org
always does an indention here of two spaces.

Is there a way to turn this of?

It seems to me this is not the default behavior because I saw some
youtube videos where there is no indention in such blocks.

I'm using Emacs 27 (from Debian 11) with latest org and org-roam. I
minimized my init.el and still can reproduce it.

;; -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
(require 'package)
(setq package-archives '(("melpa" . "https://melpa.org/packages/;)
 ("elpa" . "https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/;)))
;; Initializes the package infrastructure
(package-initialize)

;; === use-package ==
;; use-package to simplify the config file
(unless (package-installed-p 'use-package)
  (package-refresh-contents)
  (package-install 'use-package))

(require 'use-package)
(setq use-package-always-ensure 't)

;; === BASIC setup
(set-default-coding-systems 'utf-8)

;; === EVIL
(use-package evil
  :init
  (setq evil-want-integration t)
  (setq evil-want-keybinding nil)
  (setq evil-want-C-i-jump nil)
  :config
  (evil-mode 1)
  ;; Use visual line motions even outside of visual-line-mode buffers
  (evil-global-set-key 'motion "j" 'evil-next-visual-line)
  (evil-global-set-key 'motion "k" 'evil-previous-visual-line)
  ;; Set "normal" vi-mode in specific buffers
  (evil-set-initial-state 'messages-buffer-mode 'normal)
  (evil-set-initial-state 'dashboard-mode 'normal)
  )

(use-package org)

Re: Presenting Hyperorg version 0.1.0: The Org to HTML Converter

[c.buhtz]

On 2024-03-20 13:09 Ihor Radchenko  wrote:
> May you outline the benefits

Now I added a section about that topic. Of course I am open for
discussion and feedback.

https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg#benefits-compared-to-similar-tools

Unexpected rendered HTML for title

[c.buhtz]

Hello,

I have this title line in my org file:

#+title: test_latex_fragments

Using org-html-export-to-html produce this:

testlatexfragments


I assume there is a good reason why Org does it that way. But I want to
understand.

Why does this happen?

Kind
Christian Buhtz

Re: Presenting Hyperorg version 0.1.0: The Org to HTML Converter

[c.buhtz]

On 2024-03-23 13:58 Ihor Radchenko  wrote:
> Although I am actually more interested in other questions -
> why custom parser and what is tailored for zettelkasten.

What do you mean by "custom parser"?

Zettelkasten? Hyperorg handles the links between nodes out of the box
including the backlinks. It also creates an index (nodes sorted by
title, tags, etc pp).

Of course with Emacs is everything possible even Coffee making. But the
difference are the resources you have to invest into configure it. This
is much even if you know Lisp.

Re: Presenting Hyperorg version 0.1.0: The Org to HTML Converter

[c.buhtz]

Dear Ihor,

I will consider your points and take them into account.

On 2024-03-24 14:40 Ihor Radchenko  wrote:
> If it is an option, it would be nice if you upstreamed your additions
> to orgparse. This way, we can get a better Python-based Org parser for
> everyone's benefit.

The code is free. The orgparse maintainer is free to re-use it of
course. On the other hand in the long run I will consider to separate
my parsing code into an extra package. But currently it is to unstable
and do support only a small subset of all org(roam) features.

> > Orgparse do throw exceptions e.g. UnicodeDecodeError or when
> > timestamps are invalid. Hyperorg catch that exceptions and go on
> > with the next node without interrupting the whole process.
> 
> I see. FYI, it is a bug to throw an error when parsing Org document.
> Any kind of text file is a valid Org document. There is no notion of
> invalid syntax in Org markup.

You mean throw an error is a bug because it is not possible to
write invalid org documents?

I am not convinced yet. But I am open to it and willing to learn.

Even org-html-export* itself do throw errors and stop processing when
there are unknown orgids.

What is about an inconsistent block?

#begin_src
foobar
#end_example

> > Other things are "invalid" links, e.g. unknown orgids, unknown roam 
> > links, unsupported "link kinds" ("protocols" in org syntax?; e.g. 
> > "inkscape:").
> 
> In Org terminology, we call these "broken" links.
> "link kinds" are link "types".

The term "types" is to broad and conflicts with Pythons in build
functions. ;) That is the main reason why I used "kind". On the other
hand the org syntax reference IMHO also use the term "protocol".

> Do you mean that orgparse throws an error when encountering tables?

No. I was referring to Hyperorg. OrgParse do not parse any org content
except headings and properties. Nearly everything else is unparsed and
given raw to my.

> Generally, part of the "Benefits" section is a bit hand-wavy. I
> recommend using more clear statements. Otherwise, it is not clear what
> exactly the benefits are.

Again. It is also not "clear" for me. There are benefits just for
myself as an low-level-Emacs-and-org-user, someone who get headaches
reading Lisp code and feeling very comfortable using Python. In short:
My opinion is very subjective. And I don't have enough experience to
compare my tool to others.
I tried to make this point clear in my benefits section. And this is
also the reason why there was no benefits section in the first place
because I wasn't clear enough about what to write in there.

Maybe I should rephrase the section to "Benefits and design goals".

> 1. Drop "Fairly resilient when dealing with parser issues."

Why? The "design goal" is to process all nodes no matter how
bad/invalid they are.

> 2. Reword "Fairly resilient managing dead and problematic links which
> are a common phenomenon when working with a constantly evolving
> Zettelkasten or personal wiki." And instead clearly explain how broken
> links are exported.

I don't want to blow up the text. Not sure what you expect here. The
node is exported as HTML but the link is colorful highlighted and a
tooltip explaining the problem is added.

> 4. Drop "Adhers to World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) standards for HTML5
>and CSS ()." Most other blog exporters for Org mode
>adhere to standards. And those that are not are probably out of
>interest for the purposes of comparison.

Why?

Btw: Even code generated by org-html-export* (XHTML 1.0 Strict) give
errors on W3C. e.g. "type" attribute is missing in