Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Hi Lawrence, Lawrence Bottorff writes: > Is this ID spoken > of? http://orgmode.org/worg/org-api/org-id-api.html Yes, but this API documentation is old and should be removed. > So far it's just a field in Property, correct? Correct. -- Bastien
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Is this ID spoken of? http://orgmode.org/worg/org-api/org-id-api.html So far it's just a field in Property, correct? On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Samuel Wales wrote: > there is also <>. >
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
there is also <>.
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
s/more than one other place in/more than one other place from/
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
hi lawrence, as eric and nick pointed out, you can use properties with org-id to implement arbitrary graphs. you will have to write the code to select the children and go to them and go back. org-id's work well. if you want to point to any non-header object, it will not work. for example, a word in a paragraph. you can point from a word using a link, but only to one other place. pointing to a word is not possible. there is a much more general-purpose approach called id markers. these are tokens that contain an org-id. you can place them anywhere and point to them and from them. wherever you place them is a node. so you can put them on a word. you can point to more than one other place in an id marker. you can move them and everything that points to them will still point to them. there are various options for how to display them etc. one thread that talks about them is "Feature request: IDs on anything". however: id markers are vaporware, just like using properties. :) samuel On 2/15/14, Lawrence Bottorff wrote: > Org mode seems to lack data extraction/insertion. There's agenda view, but > that's just one method. Obviously, you could use things like grep or other > command-line Unix utilities, but being able to organize and extract based > on your stuff being stored graph-aware would be nice, IMHO. Being able to > traverse a graph data structure and do an add or read or whatever would be > great, IHMO. You'd have the benefits of a database with all the good stuff > about org mode retained. > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Eric S Fraga wrote: > >> Lawrence Bottorff writes: >> >> > Is there any way to have org mode simulate a graph structure rather >> > than >> > always a (folding) hierarchy? >> >> Sure: you could superimpose a graph structure using headline >> properties. You could define CHILDREN, PARENT, NODES, NEXT, PREVIOUS, >> ... types of properties entries and write emacs lisp code to process >> these. Not sure what you want to do accomplish in the end, mind you... >> >> -- >> : Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.3.50.2, Org >> release_8.2.5h-608-g27a978 >> > -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. ANYBODY can get it. Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Brett Viren writes: > Lawrence Bottorff writes: > >> being able to organize and >> extract based on your stuff being stored graph-aware would be nice, >> IMHO. > > I'm by no means an expert on this but I know org-element-parse-buffer > returns a data structure which is a directed-graph. > > http://orgmode.org/worg/org-api/org-element-api.html > > Note, each node has a :parent reference which makes the data structure > circular. Traversing it must take this feature into account. > I thought Lawrence was looking for a way to *impose* a graph structure on his data (stored in an org file, augmented with whatever is necessary to implement his graph(s)). org-element-parse-buffer returns a graph (actually, it's probably closer to a tree) which reflects the *internal* structure of the org document. In some ways, the analogy here is between a Unix file (internal structure: sequence of bytes, operations: open/close/read/write/seek/etc) on one hand, and a structured file: e.g. compiling a program into some intermediate language and storing the result into a file. The file itself doesn't know anything about the structure of its contents: the contents are just a sequence of bytes. But there are tools (compilers, loaders, assemblers, debuggers, etc.) that "understand" the superimposed structure. Similarly here, we have an ordinary org file, but it contains additional stuff that allow other tools to do special things (e.g. cross-link sections of the document into a directed graph). Org itself provides certain mechanisms that *could* be used for that (properties, links) but would not itself "understand" the additional structure. You'd need other tools (probably built on top of org-element-*) to do that. The challenge here is that you can impose structure in a very specific manner, so that both the structure and the tools are only useful in a very specific setting. Or you try to come with generic structure and generic tools that can accommodate a variety of applications. The balance between these two extremes (surgical scalpel vs kitchen sink) is very much a matter of need, taste and experience. That's my understanding - I hope I have not misrepresented the situation too much. -- Nick
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Lawrence Bottorff writes: > being able to organize and > extract based on your stuff being stored graph-aware would be nice, > IMHO. I'm by no means an expert on this but I know org-element-parse-buffer returns a data structure which is a directed-graph. http://orgmode.org/worg/org-api/org-element-api.html Note, each node has a :parent reference which makes the data structure circular. Traversing it must take this feature into account. -Brett. pgpCPGL3596sN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Lawrence Bottorff writes: > Org mode seems to lack data extraction/insertion. Check out http://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html and maybe org-element.el in the org mode distribution you are using. I've not tried the org element parser but others on this list have so I'm sure you can get some advice from them. -- : Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.3.50.2, Org release_8.2.5h-633-gec0998
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Org mode seems to lack data extraction/insertion. There's agenda view, but that's just one method. Obviously, you could use things like grep or other command-line Unix utilities, but being able to organize and extract based on your stuff being stored graph-aware would be nice, IMHO. Being able to traverse a graph data structure and do an add or read or whatever would be great, IHMO. You'd have the benefits of a database with all the good stuff about org mode retained. On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 4:44 AM, Eric S Fraga wrote: > Lawrence Bottorff writes: > > > Is there any way to have org mode simulate a graph structure rather than > > always a (folding) hierarchy? > > Sure: you could superimpose a graph structure using headline > properties. You could define CHILDREN, PARENT, NODES, NEXT, PREVIOUS, > ... types of properties entries and write emacs lisp code to process > these. Not sure what you want to do accomplish in the end, mind you... > > -- > : Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.3.50.2, Org > release_8.2.5h-608-g27a978 >
Re: [O] Graph not hierarchical?
Lawrence Bottorff writes: > Is there any way to have org mode simulate a graph structure rather than > always a (folding) hierarchy? Sure: you could superimpose a graph structure using headline properties. You could define CHILDREN, PARENT, NODES, NEXT, PREVIOUS, ... types of properties entries and write emacs lisp code to process these. Not sure what you want to do accomplish in the end, mind you... -- : Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.3.50.2, Org release_8.2.5h-608-g27a978
[O] Graph not hierarchical?
Is there any way to have org mode simulate a graph structure rather than always a (folding) hierarchy? You could say a hierarchy is a tree graph, and you could "link" or give a "jump" from one entry to another -- even in another org file. It seems plausible to call an entry a "node," and a node could have listed in its properties "edges" leading to other nodes. Has anyone else thought of this? Without knowing anything about how org mode is really coded under the hood, I'm guessing (from reading the documentation) it is simply built on the emacs folding code, i.e., there is no real underlying hierarchy algorithm(s) that you could hack into in order to make org mode more database-like (tree, graph, or otherwise). Some of these thoughts came from the simple examples given in "Land of Lisp" where a simple nodes and edges representation was given with a-lists: (defparameter *nodes* '(living-room garden attic)) (defparameter *edges* '((living-room (garden west door) (attic upstairs ladder)) (garden (living-room east door)) (attic (living-room downstairs ladder The nodes are living-room, attic, and garden. And the edges are an a-list keyed on the nodes, e.g., living-room has two edges, one connected to the attic (upstairs by way of a ladder), the other to the garden (to the west by way of a door). I guess this is beginning to sound like a weak graph database hack, but as I envisioned it, each node -- an org mode entry -- could be leveraging org mode's big strengths: literate programming and loose, do-it-yourself text data storage. LB North Shore MN
