Re: [O] keybindings again...
Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > Thank you for the pointer. Although I don't > think I ever used a teletypewriter in my life > :) Maybe sometimes in the 21st century we'll > have to think about a change in > terminology... In computers, but also in just any brand of engineering (and other areas as well), there are tons of cases when terminology is either outdated or just plain wrong. When there is a correct term, as in "chainwheel" or "sprocket" as opposed to "cog" (which is incorrect, as it isn't a cod), it is good to know about the correct terms and use them whenever, but it is equally necessary to know about the incorrect term. You will find respectable books when they refer to a sprocket as a "cog" without blinking! And know what, that book is healthy for you to read nonetheless! So in most cases it is better to use the correct term in parallel and if the technically incorrect one dies, good, if it survives, so be it. Another example: There were once a newsreader called GNUS. When a new newsreader came, and they thought of calling it "ding" as in "ding is not GNUS". Clever, but it didn't take. So now it is Gnus who isn't GNUS. But it is - only better :) As for the ttys they are also called "the console" or "the Linux virtual terminals" (the Linux VTs). All those are designations are fine and at least "tty" and "console" are also part of technology by now: e.g., I just mentioned the file /etc/console-setup/remap.inc in another post; as for "tty", do $ ls /dev/ | grep tty > I use the compact manual [...] Bigger always better :) -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Re: [O] keybindings again...
Also $ xmodmap .. if you should see an empty row in the output, and a whole bunch of things clustered on the last line, then .. write an ~/.Xmodmap to free up caps-lock and to have it act as the Hyper_L key. two more lines move that modifier into the free row and you get an easy to hit on activation via $ xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap With a US keyboard you might need to create that file, otherwise just add: clear Lock keycode 66 = Hyper_L remove mod4 = Hyper_L add mod3 = Hyper_L I never worked out how to do this in the terminal as emacs is unusable in the terminal on my debians (since i can remember; i use zile there instead). one could maybe make Hyper work outside X via /etc/console-setup/ [remap.inc] p.s. C-x h is your friend. you can not bind H-S-n, but you can bind H-N (for example) $ xev also shows the limits of what you can and can't bind. iac, Caps-lock Enter is refreshingly easy to hit. hope this helps! Sure! Improvements to documentation are always welcome. Ok, I'll put that on my todo list now that I have solved that shortcut issue... :) Jean-Christophe
Re: [O] keybindings again...
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 17:14, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >> So, I have a few suggestions to improve that part of the documentation: >> 1) add a list of preset keys in the manual >> 2) add a line about speed keys in the compact guide >> >> That's something I could do if the idea is accepted. > > Sure! Improvements to documentation are always welcome. Ok, I'll put that on my todo list now that I have solved that shortcut issue... :) Jean-Christophe
Re: [O] keybindings again...
Jean-Christophe Helary writes: > The alternative to M-S-RET is C-c C-x M = C-c C-x S-m > > Why set an alternative like this when ESC RET S- does exactly > the same thing and is way shorter/more practical ? "practical" is in the eye of the beholder. For example, I can type "C-c C-x M" without moving my hands out of the home row. Both ESC and right arrow require me to quit that position. I prefer the first one without an hesitation. > After looking at the "big" manual, I found about speed keys which seem > to be a much more pragmatic approach to sorting that gui/tty key issue > in org-mode. But except for a small paragraph and a few items in the > tty section I could not find any reference to them, and nothing at all > in the compact manual. > > So, I have a few suggestions to improve that part of the documentation: > 1) add a list of preset keys in the manual > 2) add a line about speed keys in the compact guide > > That's something I could do if the idea is accepted. Sure! Improvements to documentation are always welcome. Thank you. Regards,
Re: [O] keybindings again...
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 14:27, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > >> It would be nice if the org manual mentioned that too, and give >> alternative keybindings for use in the terminal because that's >> extremely confusing. > > It does: (info "(org) TTY keys"). The alternative to M-S-RET is C-c C-x M = C-c C-x S-m Why set an alternative like this when ESC RET S- does exactly the same thing and is way shorter/more practical ? > See also `org-replace-disputed-keys'. After looking at the "big" manual, I found about speed keys which seem to be a much more pragmatic approach to sorting that gui/tty key issue in org-mode. But except for a small paragraph and a few items in the tty section I could not find any reference to them, and nothing at all in the compact manual. So, I have a few suggestions to improve that part of the documentation: 1) add a list of preset keys in the manual 2) add a line about speed keys in the compact guide That's something I could do if the idea is accepted. Jean-Christophe ps: section C3 of the manual has this line about Sacha Chua: "Sacha Chua suggested copying some linking code from Planner, and helped make Org pupular through her blog." It should be "popular" not "pupular".
Re: [O] keybindings again...
Eli and Yuri, Thank you *so much* for the thorough explanations. Now I know. After having finally understood how git was working I was going back to my list of things to do for/with emacs and got frustrated by that shortcut that kept not working... Jean-Christophe > On Jun 30, 2017, at 15:17, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Jean-Christophe Helary >> Do you mean that Shift is not recognized as a modified key by the terminal ? > > No, that's not it.
Re: [O] keybindings again...
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 14:27, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >> It would be nice if the org manual mentioned that too, and give >> alternative keybindings for use in the terminal because that's >> extremely confusing. > > It does: (info "(org) TTY keys"). Thank you for the pointer. Although I don't think I ever used a teletypewriter in my life :) Maybe sometimes in the 21st century we'll have to think about a change in terminology... I use the compact manual as a reference for my uses and I find it extremely useful for beginners. Would it be possible to insert a few line on that subject in there too? Something like "People who use org-mode in a tty terminal should refer to section 15.9 of the manual for alternative key bindings." > See also `org-replace-disputed-keys'. Thank you. Jean-Christophe
Re: [O] keybindings again...
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >> I'm trying to assign M-S-RET to org-insert-todo-heading because for some >> reason it is not assigned by default: every time I hit ESC S-RET I get ESC >> RET only. >> >> It's the limitation of the terminal. > > Do you mean that Shift is not recognized as a modified key by the terminal ? A brief recap of terminal limitations, from a guy who has never used a real hardware terminal. The protocol by which a terminal passes keystrokes to an application is that of an ASCII character stream, with only minor extensions (these days it’s a UTF-8-encoded character stream). It predates the notion of keyboard as an interactive input device. In that protocol, there are 32 control characters with codes 0 through 31 (decimal). They are associated with Ctrl+@, Ctrl+A, …, Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+[, Ctrl+\, Ctrl+], Ctrl+^ and Ctrl+_, and terminals pass these character codes when these key combinations are pressed, with or without Shift. Also, there is the control character 127, sometimes written as Ctrl+?. Additionally, the most frequent of these control characters have been given single keys. These are RET = Ctrl+M, TAB = Ctrl+I, ESC = Ctrl+[, sometimes BS = Ctrl+H, and sometimes DEL = Ctrl+?. It follows that many terminals emit identical character codes for C-m, C-M, RET and S-RET; C-i, C-I, TAB and S-TAB; C-[, C-{, ESC and S-ESC; and C-?, DEL and S-DEL; the application running on the other side cannot distinguish them. GUI systems, on the other hand, were developed after keyboards had been available for many years. Thus, most of they do allow applications to distinguish any keys with any modifiers. Some GUI terminal emulators have taken advantage of their GUI nature, and started passing distinct escape sequences for some key combinations. For example, Xterm emits ESC [ Z when I press Shift+Tab. Some GUI terminal emulators also let the user customize which character sequences they send on which keys.
Re: [O] keybindings again...
> From: Jean-Christophe Helary > Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 14:10:50 +0900 > > Do you mean that Shift is not recognized as a modified key by the terminal ? No, that's not it. The problem is that on a TTY, the way Emacs reads keyboard input returns only characters, it doesn't return function keys. So Shift-a returns 'A', because the keyboard driver generates an upper-case A when you type that. But there's no up-cased RET character, so you get just RET. Keys like F1 work on a TTY by emitting a sequence of characters, usually starting with ESC, and Emacs binds that sequence in special keymaps in a way that produces the symbol F1. But Shift-RET doesn't produce any such sequence, so there's nothing Emacs can do in that case.
Re: [O] keybindings again...
On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:12 AM Jean-Christophe Helary < jean.christophe.hel...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Do you mean that Shift is not recognized as a modified key by the terminal > ? > That's my understanding. Also, I rarely use emacs with -nw (as I would otherwise miss PNG and PDF support), so I am not an expert on this subject. But based on some reading, it has to do with the type of terminal emulator you are using. This[1] might help. > > If you do C-h c Esc+Shift+Return, Emacs will detect only Esc+Return. So > you will see M-RET in the echo area. > > > > You probably just need to use some other binding. > > It would be nice if the org manual mentioned that too, and give > alternative keybindings for use in the terminal because that's extremely > confusing. > I cannot comment on that as this probably has to do with the terminal emulator and not emacs. In any case, it might be better to submit an emacs bug report (M-x report-emacs-bug) requesting this mention in the manual. This node already mentions something on this topic: (elisp) Other Char Bits but just not using the "Ctrl + Shift + .." example. [1]: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/13957/115 -- Kaushal Modi
Re: [O] keybindings again...
Hello, Jean-Christophe Helary writes: > It would be nice if the org manual mentioned that too, and give > alternative keybindings for use in the terminal because that's > extremely confusing. It does: (info "(org) TTY keys"). See also `org-replace-disputed-keys'. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou
Re: [O] keybindings again...
> On Jun 30, 2017, at 11:51, Kaushal Modi wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:43 PM Jean-Christophe Helary > mailto:jean.christophe.hel...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > I'm using emacs built from master, emacs -nw, after moving .emacs.el and > .emacs.d away, on OSX 10.12. > > > I'm trying to assign M-S-RET to org-insert-todo-heading because for some > reason it is not assigned by default: every time I hit ESC S-RET I get ESC > RET only. > > It's the limitation of the terminal. Do you mean that Shift is not recognized as a modified key by the terminal ? > If you do C-h c Esc+Shift+Return, Emacs will detect only Esc+Return. So you > will see M-RET in the echo area. > > You probably just need to use some other binding. It would be nice if the org manual mentioned that too, and give alternative keybindings for use in the terminal because that's extremely confusing. Jean-Christophe Helary
Re: [O] keybindings again...
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:43 PM Jean-Christophe Helary < jean.christophe.hel...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm using emacs built from master, emacs -nw, after moving .emacs.el and > .emacs.d away, on OSX 10.12. > > > I'm trying to assign M-S-RET to org-insert-todo-heading because for some > reason it is not assigned by default: every time I hit ESC S-RET I get ESC > RET only. > It's the limitation of the terminal. If you do C-h c Esc+Shift+Return, Emacs will detect only Esc+Return. So you will see M-RET in the echo area. You probably just need to use some other binding. -- Kaushal Modi
[O] keybindings again...
I'm using emacs built from master, emacs -nw, after moving .emacs.el and .emacs.d away, on OSX 10.12. I'm trying to assign M-S-RET to org-insert-todo-heading because for some reason it is not assigned by default: every time I hit ESC S-RET I get ESC RET only. So, I tried things from http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/keystroke_rep.html First, this works fine: (global-set-key (kbd "M-b") 'org-insert-todo-heading) But this doesn't: (global-set-key (kbd "M-") 'org-insert-todo-heading) What I get here is the old M-return = org-insert-heading. What is the problem here ? Jean-Christophe