Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Hi Nick, Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com writes: But this is the second time that I have had to defend keeping the tag and I hope that the rest of you will sympathise with my reasons for keeping the tag. Be reassured: at least I do. Hope we can move forward now. -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Alan L Tyree wrote: The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. No, really, it's not that unique. And many project still works correctly with several mailing list. -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info pgpLPcbhcnlBI.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info wrote: On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Alan L Tyree wrote: The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. No, really, it's not that unique. And many project still works correctly with several mailing list. I know that most projects work this way, and I am sure that Org would survive and prosper no matter what the decision is here. I still say, of the lists that I have monitored (not many - I am a retired Law Professor with only a slight knowledge of software development) the Org list is the most interesting. It's just a personal preference - I don't see any decisive argument for any of the possible decisions on splitting the list. Whatever happens, many thanks to all the Org developers for some great software. Cheers, Alan -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Hi, the same discussion was started a few month ago. Basically, at that time there was quickly some argument to drop [Orgmode] tag in the subject and try to reduce the tags to a certain amount. Basically, I can't see any logical reason to keep [Orgmode] since this is a org-mode list. Esp., nowadays people read mails on small screens on there mobile devices. E.g., the subject line on my android phone is nearly eaten up entirely by [Orgmode][babel], makes it very difficult to follow the list. Others argued they use it to separate quickly between different mailing list. Maybe shorten it to [OM] and introduce [DEV] to mark topics dev for development. However, I agree that splitting the list makes no differences to people who subscribe to both lists. Just some more points to think about Torsten On 02/27/2011 07:30 PM, Julien Danjou wrote: Hi, There's really a lot of trafic here, and it's more and more diffcult to me to follow development related threads in all the usage realted threads. How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com writes: The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. I hope the switch from [Orgmode] to [O] will make things easier for you. -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote: I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O]. Couldn't you just drop it? Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous. -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info pgpcuBCMMMZGw.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote: I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O]. Couldn't you just drop it? Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous. No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line. -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote: No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line. It would be better to teach these people this is not a good practice rather than polluting the subject lines for everybody… -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info pgpZrRQKSf1VX.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. I hope the switch from [Orgmode] to [O] will make things easier for you. Since we now have a single letter [O] for the main mailing list, wouldn't it make sense to use [D] for devel and [B] for Babel. Less visual clutter and better on small screens. Ian. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote: I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O]. Couldn't you just drop it? Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous. Not to me. No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line. Just to clarify my usage (since I was one of the people who argued for keeping a tag): I don't have an MUA filter for this (that would be easy enough to change) - the filter is my eyes: if I have time to spend on org-mode, I will look at an email tagged [Orgmode] [fn:1] If not, I skip it. If there is no distinguishing characteristic at this level, I have to resort to other methods just to see whether the email is relevant to me at this time (usually the author name is enough to classify the email correctly, but not always of course, in which case I might have to read (some of) the email to decide.) The tag saves me time. I sympathise with Samuel's reasons for maximizing information, hence I did not oppose the shortening of the tag. But this is the second time that I have had to defend keeping the tag and I hope that the rest of you will sympathise with my reasons for keeping the tag. Thanks, Nick Footnotes: [fn:1] or [Org] or [O] - I would have preferred [Org] but I'm willing to live with [O]. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
[O] is *much* better than [Orgmode]. Thank you. Looking forward to [OD] and [OB], if that's what we will use. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Nick Dokos nicholas.do...@hp.com wrote: Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote: I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O]. Couldn't you just drop it? Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous. Not to me. Me either. The emails from this mailing list along account for 80% of my daily emails. With a tag and using gmail shortcuts, I can go down the list pressing j for next message and x to select it as I skim the titles to see if anything strikes me as of interest. When I have them all, I scan the senders and subjects once more to catch any accidental selections and then press # to delete. It would suck to actually read every subject to interpret it as mailing list or not *and* also be deciding if I wanted to open it. With the tag I just look for keywords like babel, beamer, lists, etc. to see if I think I'm interested. Mostly... I'm not. [fn:1] or [Org] or [O] - I would have preferred [Org] but I'm willing to live with [O]. Yeah, [O] seems weird to me even though there's nothing really wrong with it... I like [Org] more :) John ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On 28 Feb 2011, at 18:05, Samuel Wales wrote: [O] is *much* better than [Orgmode]. Thank you. Looking forward to [OD] and [OB], if that's what we will use. Plus [OS], for discussions about splitting the mailing list. Konrad PS: Don't worry, this is my last post on this topic! ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[O] Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Matthew Sauer improv.philoso...@gmail.com writes: I think that if it was kept as a single list the use of tags could allow (as long as people respect the tags) to filter and read only the types of threads they want to use. If we split the lists I would tag both with the same tag in my gmail box and read them all together, so it wouldn't really appear to be any different for me other than the people only reading dev tags or on the dev channel wouldn't see the user discussions. I'm happy either way as I am interested in all org related emails. If split, I would see no difference in the end: the emails from the two lists would end up back in the same list for me as I use filtering (gnus splitting to be precise) to distribute my many emails automatically to their appropriate folders. However, I don't think the volume in this list is that large, assuming readers are using smart mail tools. Especially with threading, it's relatively easy to delete or ignore whole threads at once if they are not of interest. Not that I do that very often with org threads, mind you ;-) -- : Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1 : using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.553.g83b7.dirty) ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Hi, There's really a lot of trafic here, and it's more and more diffcult to me to follow development related threads in all the usage realted threads. How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info pgpy1t4BXGuu1.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Hi Julien, Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list. The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing. What other people think? -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Sun, Feb 27 2011, Bastien wrote: I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list. This is not something automatic, so this is not something everyone will do. I won't think about it most of time and will forget, so… The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing. Your own vision of Org is probably that, so you'd subscribe to both list. I personally do not have enough time to care about users problems nor their features complaints for now, so spending time with developement subject only and not having to filter out usage related thread would make me gain an amount of time that I could spend on hacking Org. This is not something I'd propose on a low trafic list, but the number of mails here is getting bigger and bigger, and it's hard for me as a developer (and not as a maintainer like you) to just follow the stream of subject I am interested into (i.e. developement of Org). If some developers (like you) have more time to follow users subjects, nothing stop you to read both lists. At this point of trafic rate, not splitting is mostly killing people like me. :) -- Julien Danjou ❱ http://julien.danjou.info pgpPL1jLfLJcY.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Even though I am not much into development I enjoy reading them as they are teaching me about how this works and hopefully I can move to doing DEV further down the road. Even if we had two lists I would just add a filter tag like I do now and sort them all into the same tag (well, maybe, maybe not). Maybe the DEV channel should be something that you are invited to join with send access but anyone could have read access too. If a question in the user channel fit the bill it could be resent or re-proposed into the DEV channel? Maybe that's too constricted for open development? I agree, two channels so you can get what you want but they need to have reference to each other and at least a few people on both. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:43 AM, Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Hi Julien, Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list. The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing. What other people think? -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:43:59 +0100 Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Hi Julien, Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list. The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing. What other people think? I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good. Cheers, Alan -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
If the lists were split, I likely would have never submitted my first patch. I've learned more about programming and computing from the org-mode list than any other list. I'm in favor of the status quo. I make heavy use of mail tags. I almost always delete [PATCH] mails immediately, and pay special attention to [babel] mails, since I'm starting to use it more heavily. With modern filters and thread scoring, splitting may not be that beneficial on the whole. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Bastien b...@altern.org wrote: Hi Julien, Julien Danjou jul...@danjou.info writes: How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list? I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list. The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing. What other people think? -- Bastien ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode -- Jeffrey Horn http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/ ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Jeff Horn jrhorn...@gmail.com wrote: If the lists were split, I likely would have never submitted my first patch. I've learned more about programming and computing from the org-mode list than any other list. I'm in favor of the status quo. I fired off the e-mail before reading other responses. I should point out that while Julien is right that Devs can read the user list as well, I'm not certain that users would read the dev list if they were split. I certainly avoided most dev discussions on other lists, but I've learned a lot from org-mode. But, I'm only one data point... With modern filters and thread scoring, splitting may not be that beneficial on the whole. Again, I spoke prematurely. Is it possible to funnel dev traffic to the user list, so subscriptions look like this? | mail source | mail receipt | |-+| | dev list| dev and user lists | | user list | user list | -- Jeffrey Horn http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/ ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good. I don't understand. If you like to read the development posts, why not subscribe to both lists? My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line. Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org]. That seems like a change everyone can agree with. Could one of the mailing list admins please make that change? Thanks, ajk ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:53:44 -0500 Andrew J. Korty a...@iu.edu wrote: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good. I don't understand. If you like to read the development posts, why not subscribe to both lists? My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line. The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. I take your point about the tags, however. No happy answer to any of this. Cheers, Alan Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org]. That seems like a change everyone can agree with. Could one of the mailing list admins please make that change? Thanks, ajk ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
I think that if it was kept as a single list the use of tags could allow (as long as people respect the tags) to filter and read only the types of threads they want to use. If we split the lists I would tag both with the same tag in my gmail box and read them all together, so it wouldn't really appear to be any different for me other than the people only reading dev tags or on the dev channel wouldn't see the user discussions. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:53:44 -0500 Andrew J. Korty a...@iu.edu wrote: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good. I don't understand. If you like to read the development posts, why not subscribe to both lists? My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line. The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. I take your point about the tags, however. No happy answer to any of this. Cheers, Alan Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org]. That seems like a change everyone can agree with. Could one of the mailing list admins please make that change? Thanks, ajk ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode -- Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan Tel: 04 2748 6206 ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
Re: [Orgmode] Splitting mailing list
Andrew J. Korty a...@iu.edu wrote: Alan L Tyree alanty...@gmail.com wrote: I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good. I don't understand. If you like to read the development posts, why not subscribe to both lists? My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line. Agreed. Samuel Wales samolog...@gmail.com wrote: The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost never can read the entire subject header. Often I get to read only the first word. Tags will make that worse. It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org]. That seems like a change everyone can agree with. Could one of the mailing list admins please make that change? Agreed - even though I was probably the most vocal opponent of dropping the tag altogether, I have no problem with making it shorter. [Org] looks fine for the current list and if the dev list comes to pass it could perhaps get an [OrgD] tag (or even [OD]: overdosing on org is a good thing...) Thanks, Nick ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
