Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:05 PM Maxim Nikulin wrote: > There is might be some uncertainty concerning handling of prefixes and > suffixes. However my impression is that even e.g. \cite[p.~7]{key} is > quite rare. For completeness, keys without prefixes, suffixes could be > combined into single \ci

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On 06/05/2021 18:53, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: Your example should just use the default org-cite citation, without any style or sub-style. The rest would be handled by latex/bibtex. Right? Yes, simple \cite{k1,k2} is mostly enough for numeric citations. E.g cases like separated list of reference

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:37 AM Maxim Nikulin wrote: > > For example, do you get that with the default \cite command in latex, > > assuming the right bst file? > > Do you think something is wrong with such citations? No. I asked those questions because the focus now is on org-cite styles, and su

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

{ml_natbib,ml_cite_org3}. \begin{thebibliography}{9} \bibitem{ml_cite_org3} Nicolas Goaziou. Notes about citations in Org (part 3). \bibitem{ml_cite_status} Bruce D'Arcus. wip-cite status question and feedback. \bibitem{ml_natbib} Nicolas Goaziou. [wip-cite-new] New natbib processor. \end{th

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 13:16, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 12:59 PM Maxim Nikulin wrote: >> In some fields simple "[3,7]" citations are traditional. > > How do you achieve such output, with which formats, packages, commands? > > For example, do you get that with the default

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 12:59 PM Maxim Nikulin wrote: > > On 04/05/2021 23:59, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > > > > Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? I'm > > not sure we should provide it since we are working towards more complete > > solutions. > > In some fields simple

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On 04/05/2021 23:59, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? I'm not sure we should provide it since we are working towards more complete solutions. In some fields simple "[3,7]" citations are traditional. A couple of randomly picked examples

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, András Simonyi writes: > this is just to indicate that I've started to look into the > wip-cite-new branch with an eye on updating citeproc-org to use the > new API -- everything seems to be working perfectly, thanks again for > this, Nicholas! One issue I also noticed is the separation o

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:59 PM Nicolas Goaziou > wrote: > >> AFAIU, the idea is to use styles from you wiki. However, sub-styles are >> not mentioned. They could be "full" for the starred variants, "caps" for >> the capitalized ones, and "alt" for those withou

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Wednesday, 5 May 2021 at 05:37, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Does it have any more commands than \cite and \nocite? Vanilla LaTeX has only \cite and \nocite (page 74ff of the original book by Leslie Lamport). -- : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4.5-503-g501b2a

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Am 05.05.2021 um 11:37 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: On Wed, May 5, 2021, 1:48 AM Eric S Fraga > wrote: On Tuesday,  4 May 2021 at 18:59, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? Yes, it is.  But I wouldn't b

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Wed, May 5, 2021, 1:48 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 18:59, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > > Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? > > Yes, it is. But I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about relative > frequency etc. > Does it have any more

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 21:04, András Simonyi wrote: > One issue I also noticed is the separation of citation > style and bibliography style, which does not exist in CSL. > Accordingly, it would be nice to have ways of specifying a single > style for both of them (both in the Org syntax and in t

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 22:22, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > I meant: is it useful to even mention it? Is it used at all when other > more complete solutions exist? Actually, to avoid misunderstanding, natbib is not more "complete" than the default LaTeX support. It simply supports a particular sty

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 18:59, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? Yes, it is. But I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about relative frequency etc. -- : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4.5-395-g82fbdd

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

"Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:59 PM Nicolas Goaziou > wrote: >> Is the default \cite{key} command (without any other package) used? I'm >> not sure we should provide it since we are working towards more complete >> solutions. > > Not ATM. > > The table only has suggested

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Dear All, this is just to indicate that I've started to look into the wip-cite-new branch with an eye on updating citeproc-org to use the new API -- everything seems to be working perfectly, thanks again for this, Nicholas! One issue I also noticed is the separation of citation style and bibliogra

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:59 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > AFAIU, the idea is to use styles from you wiki. However, sub-styles are > not mentioned. They could be "full" for the starred variants, "caps" for > the capitalized ones, and "alt" for those without parenthesis, so one > could write: "Alt"

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 12:59 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: ... > > I guess the question at this stage is how to iterate this. > > > > I already added a change or two based on feedback from Joost, and it > > does make sense to add a new column for latex. > > > > It seems eas

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

"Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:46 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > >> I wonder whether it might be good to have a default LaTeX column as >> well, i.e. not natbib, a column that represents what LaTeX supports out >> of the box which is only the \cite{key} command. > > Makes sense to

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:46 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > I wonder whether it might be good to have a default LaTeX column as > well, i.e. not natbib, a column that represents what LaTeX supports out > of the box which is only the \cite{key} command. Makes sense to me. I guess the question at this

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 11:20, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > I'm attaching the tentative style/command and shortcut mapping I came > up with, with help from Eric and Joost. Thank you for this. I wonder whether it might be good to have a default LaTeX column as well, i.e. not natbib, a column that rep

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

I'm attaching the tentative style/command and shortcut mapping I came up with, with help from Eric and Joost. HTH. I do have \autocite as default for biblatex. Joost can weigh in if he thinks this is a problem. Bruce org-cite-styles.org Description: Binary data

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Sorry, just to be crytal clear ... On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:21 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > It is possible to include sub-styles, e.g., > > I agree it would be better to allow variants ... I should have written "sub-styles"; as in, I agree with Nicolas. Also agree on shortcuts, which I've start

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:15 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Also, what styles (including shortcuts if necessary) names could we > chose? Asterisk is not allowed in the citation style (but that could > change, if necessary). I'll let the bibtex folks speak to that perspective, but ... > E.g., > >

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Eric S Fraga writes: > On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 07:58, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >> Perhaps the bibtex/biblatex folks can help with those details? > > For natbib, there is a good summary at > > http://merkel.texture.rocks/Latex/natbib.php Thanks. Naive question: it doesn't say how to print the ref

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 07:58, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > Perhaps the bibtex/biblatex folks can help with those details? For natbib, there is a good summary at http://merkel.texture.rocks/Latex/natbib.php I only ever typically use "Author (year)" (\citet{key}) and "(Author, year)" (\citep{key}) i

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 06:11, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > It should be trivial to map this to latex; cite/text -> \citet and such. Indeed. -- : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4.5-395-g82fbdd

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 12:10, Joost Kremers wrote: > Pedantic nit-pick: they *should* be expecting and using biblatex. (But > perhaps that is what you meant already. :-) ) Well, luckily, in my field most of the journals allow submissions in LaTeX and provide style files. The bibliography is u

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 6:48 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > It seems like those interested in this could collaborate on a table of > style/command mappings for the above export processors. > > Anyone interested in working on this? > > If yes, how/where? I added a wiki page on the bibtex-actions site h

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 2:47 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > > And if the processor is citeproc-org, where does one put the "foo.csl" > > style? > > That may be orthogonal. If you use a given "foo.csl", does it still make > sense to provide styles to print_bibliography keyw

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 6:29 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > The branch provides an API to develop citation processors. The goal is > not to ultimately use "oc-basic.el", but to activate more specialized > processors, like, for example "oc-citeproc.el", but also > "oc-biblatex.el" or "oc-natbib.el", d

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Am 04.05.2021 um 12:10 schrieb Joost Kremers: On Tue, May 04 2021, Eric S Fraga wrote: Question for the longer term: for LaTeX export, I will be wanting to have the [cite:] constructs export to BiBTeX code. Will this be possible in due course? For other targets (ODT, HTML), what has been done

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, Eric S Fraga writes: > Question for the longer term: for LaTeX export, I will be wanting to > have the [cite:] constructs export to BiBTeX code. Will this be > possible in due course? For other targets (ODT, HTML), what has been > done in this branch is fantastic but, for LaTeX, publish

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 4, 2021, 5:51 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 11:33, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > > Done. > > Thank you. Seems to work just fine. > > Question for the longer term: for LaTeX export, I will be wanting to > have the [cite:] constructs export to BiBTeX code. Will this b

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tue, May 04 2021, Eric S Fraga wrote: > Question for the longer term: for LaTeX export, I will be wanting to > have the [cite:] constructs export to BiBTeX code. Will this be > possible in due course? For other targets (ODT, HTML), what has been > done in this branch is fantastic but, for La

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Tuesday, 4 May 2021 at 11:33, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Done. Thank you. Seems to work just fine. Question for the longer term: for LaTeX export, I will be wanting to have the [cite:] constructs export to BiBTeX code. Will this be possible in due course? For other targets (ODT, HTML), what

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Nicolas Goaziou writes: > Oops. I'll fix it in a few hours. I need to treat LaTeX-derived > back-ends specially in the context of BibTeX files. > > I'll let you know when it's done. Done.

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 09:58, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >> 2. the suppressed author case does not seem to work. > > He removed the suppress author variant on the individual cited items, > so I think the same effect he means to achieve with the "year" style. Makes sense. Thank you. -- : Eric S Fra

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 18:48, Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > I don't know how to do that cleanly. However, I think this is already > too smart a feature for "basic" back-end. So, I'd like to punt on this > one. Point taken. Reasonable approach. Thank you. -- : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org r

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hi, Am 04.05.2021 um 08:47 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 12:42 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: Anyway, I suggest to let it nil, and select it at the document level instead, with #+cite_export: basic bibstyle citestyle What is the significan

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 12:42 PM Nicolas Goaziou > wrote: > >> Anyway, I suggest to let it nil, and select it at the document level >> instead, with >> >> #+cite_export: basic bibstyle citestyle > > What is the significance of the last two items? These are th

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 12:42 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Anyway, I suggest to let it nil, and select it at the document level > instead, with > > #+cite_export: basic bibstyle citestyle What is the significance of the last two items? In a CSL implementation like citeproc-el, both are defined

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

FYI, I implemented support for the org-cite syntax and the core styles that I think will likely end up in citeproc-org, on the `org-cite` branch, represented by this PR. https://github.com/bdarcus/bibtex-actions/pull/113 So if you run the 'bibtex-actions-insert-citations' command and select one o

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, Eric S Fraga writes: > I've had a short play with this. Looks nice! Thank you! > A few points: > > 1. if the BiBTeX entry has, for instance, \& to escape the & for use >with LaTeX, org translates the \ to $\backslash$ and then the & >causes a problem compiling the resulting LaT

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > So if I want to add to that mini-init file the config so that the > basic processor is correctly setup, what am I doing wrong here? > > (setq org-cite-activate-processor 'basic > org-cite-follow-processor 'basic > org-cite-export-processor 'basic) Yo

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hi Eric, On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 9:47 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > 2. the suppressed author case does not seem to work. He removed the suppress author variant on the individual cited items, so I think the same effect he means to achieve with the "year" style. Bruce

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello all, I've had a short play with this. Looks nice! A few points: 1. if the BiBTeX entry has, for instance, \& to escape the & for use with LaTeX, org translates the \ to $\backslash$ and then the & causes a problem compiling the resulting LaTeX. 2. the suppressed author case does no

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 3:32 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > Make sure to checkout "wip-cite-new". Once there, you run "make". > > Then, the following mini-init.el file should be enough. Perfect; thank you! So if I want to add to that mini-init file the config so that the basic processor is correctl

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > I was thinking maybe it would complete the key. That can be for other > developers to add. You missed the "basic" part in "oc-basic.el". ;) You can write a function for creating citations with completion outside of the oc API. > Would it be possible for you, o

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 10:51 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > `org-open-at-point' will try to find key "a" in the current > bibliography. Got it. I was thinking maybe it would complete the key. That can be for other developers to add. Would it be possible for you, or someone else on the list, to po

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > Nicolas - just a little question on one detail: > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 10:06 AM Nicolas Goaziou > wrote: > >> On a citation key, "follow" capability moves point to the >> corresponding entry in the current bibliography. Elsewhere on the >> citation, it as

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Nicolas - just a little question on one detail: On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 10:06 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > On a citation key, "follow" capability moves point to the > corresponding entry in the current bibliography. Elsewhere on the > citation, it asks the user to follow any of the keys cited th

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Goaziou writes: > This post is an update about "wip-cite-new" branch, which I rebased > a few minutes ago. I'm attaching a call for help to this thread so that more people can test this before we merge it into master. Thanks again for this important work! -- Bastien

Re: Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 10:06 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: > ... at this point, I would suggest to spend energy porting "citeproc-org" or > "org-ref" to > this API instead. +1 Thanks for the update, and the work, Nicolas! I agree any remaining details are best worked out in the process of adap

Notes about citations in Org (part 3)

Hello, This post is an update about "wip-cite-new" branch, which I rebased a few minutes ago. It introduces changes that make previous reports obsolete. In particular, the "demo" I wrote in the previous thread is no longer applicable directly, even though the ideas developed there still hold. Plea