Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
FWIW: It might be the case that we will want to consider the multi-value property idea and the multi-line property idea together at some point. (With or without serialization for the latter.) I think multi-line properties will eventually be needed (in some form) in any case for things like org-contacts and they provide a simple way of allowing more data without imposing semantics. In other words, they are usable even if we don't standardize multi-value semantics. However, Babel and OP both need multi-value properties. What should a multi-value property be semantically? Effectively a vector? Effectively an alist? Both are possibilities. Outside of Babel and OP's case, do we need a layer of semantics on properties? Do we want one? Should we set Babel's interpretation of multi-value properties in stone for the rest of Org? Also, should there be an interface to multi-value properties other than accumulation? Give me the 3rd value of property? Give me the value that matches this string? Set the 3rd value? Set (and replace) the value that matches? Is accumulation a substitute for multi-line properties? Or do we want something nicer for that purpose so that editing and reading are easier, so that there is no order-dependence of property fields, and so on? Just philosophical/design questions. Samuel -- The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com === Bigotry against people with serious diseases is still bigotry.
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Hi Christophe, Eric and Thomas, Eric Schulte wrote: Christoph LANGE ch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 2011-12-26 15:50 Sebastien Vauban: Christoph LANGEch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): See the attached file for an example of working property inheritance. [...] * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :FOO:1 :FOO+: 2 :END: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (org-entry-get (point) FOO 'inherit) #+end_src #+results: : 1 While it is not possible to accumulate two properties from within the same block, property accumulation does successfully add to the inherited values of variables. I don't know if it should be possible to accumulate properties within the same property block. I would imagine so, in which case the behavior should be considered a bug. I would say so (that it's a bug), as doing it on a file-basis (within the same property block) is well supported: #+PROPERTY: FOO 1 #+PROPERTY: FOO+ 2 * Contact Name #+begin_src emacs-lisp (org-entry-get (point) FOO 'inherit) #+end_src #+results: : 1 2 … AFAIK the `+' is only supported at this stage for the `var' property: you can't take any property and add a `+' to FALSE, the var property is in no way special when it comes to property inheritance. All properties are treated equally. Sorry for insinuating it otherwise. And thanks for the correction! Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Hi Seb, thanks for your help! 2011-12-26 15:50 Sebastien Vauban: Christoph LANGEch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): … AFAIK the `+' is only supported at this stage for the `var' property: you can't take any property and add a `+' to transform it in an accumulative property. Whether this should be restricted by default or open by default, I have no opinion at this stage. If it is intended to be limited to the var property, then at least the documentation (Property syntax) needs fixing, as it states generally: If you want to add to the value of an existing property, append a `+' to the property name. But thanks a lot for pointing this out: I know, however, multivalued properties are sort of already well supported. See http://orgmode.org/manual/Using-the-property-API.html for more info. Cheers, Christoph -- Christoph Lange, http://www.facebook.com/ch.lange, Skype duke4701
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Christoph LANGE ch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: Hi Seb, thanks for your help! 2011-12-26 15:50 Sebastien Vauban: Christoph LANGEch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): See the attached file for an example of working property inheritance. #+Property: EMAIL f...@bar.org * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (org-entry-get (point) email 'inherit) #+end_src #+results: : f...@bar.org b...@baz.org * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :FOO:1 :FOO+: 2 :END: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (org-entry-get (point) FOO 'inherit) #+end_src #+results: : 1 While it is not possible to accumulate two properties from within the same block, property accumulation does successfully add to the inherited values of variables. I don't know if it should be possible to accumulate properties within the same property block. I would imagine so, in which case the behavior should be considered a bug. … AFAIK the `+' is only supported at this stage for the `var' property: you can't take any property and add a `+' to FALSE, the var property is in no way special when it comes to property inheritance. All properties are treated equally. Best, -- Eric Schulte http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Christoph LANGE ch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: Hi Seb, thanks for your help! 2011-12-26 15:50 Sebastien Vauban: Christoph LANGEch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): … AFAIK the `+' is only supported at this stage for the `var' property: you can't take any property and add a `+' to transform it in an accumulative property. Whether this should be restricted by default or open by default, I have no opinion at this stage. If it is intended to be limited to the var property, then at least the documentation (Property syntax) needs fixing, as it states generally: If you want to add to the value of an existing property, append a `+' to the property name. But thanks a lot for pointing this out: I know, however, multivalued properties are sort of already well supported. See http://orgmode.org/manual/Using-the-property-API.html for more info. Cheers, Christoph Aloha Christoph and Seb, The following example shows that the accumulative property isn't restricted to var/var+. * Accumulative properties syntax #+property: not-var 0 :PROPERTIES: :not-var+: 3 :END: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (org-entry-get (point) not-var t) #+end_src #+results: : 0 3 To run the example, you'll need to refresh the local setup by C-c C-c on the #+property: not-var 0 line, then execute the emacs-lisp source block. I didn't follow this thread closely, so I don't know if my experience is useful, but when I briefly studied the accumulative property syntax I tripped up on two things: 1) I often forgot to renew the local setup so that changes in #+property: lines would take effect; and 2) I tried to add more than one instance of a property in a drawer, which isn't allowed. hth, Tom -- Thomas S. Dye http://www.tsdye.com
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Hi Christoph, Christoph LANGE ch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: noticing the new feature Property names ending in + accumulate (as described on http://orgmode.org/Changes.html#accumulating-property-keywords – BTW, this exposes another issue with the fixed head bar on the new homepage, as the actual link target is hidden by the head bar), This has been fixed. I thought I could use it in the property drawers of the entries of my org-contacts file, and noticed the following problems: 1. font lock (aka syntax highlighting) does not yet recognize :PROPERTY+: I just fixed this, thanks. 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: I let Eric answer this -- I'm not familiar enough with accumulating properties. Best, -- Bastien
Re: [O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Hi Bastien, Christoph and Eric, Bastien wrote: Christoph LANGE ch.la...@jacobs-university.de writes: 1. font lock (aka syntax highlighting) does not yet recognize :PROPERTY+: I just fixed this, thanks. 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): I let Eric answer this -- I'm not familiar enough with accumulating properties. I'll try to answer that one, under the supervision of the guru... Well, the following works: :PROPERTIES: :var: foo=7 :var+: baz=3 :END: so your syntax looks correct, but AFAIK the `+' is only supported at this stage for the `var' property: you can't take any property and add a `+' to transform it in an accumulative property. Whether this should be restricted by default or open by default, I have no opinion at this stage. I know, however, multivalued properties are sort of already well supported. See http://orgmode.org/manual/Using-the-property-API.html for more info. Best regards, Seb -- Sebastien Vauban
[O] Bugs/features of accumulating property values when used with entries (concretely: in org-contacts)
Dear all, noticing the new feature Property names ending in + accumulate (as described on http://orgmode.org/Changes.html#accumulating-property-keywords – BTW, this exposes another issue with the fixed head bar on the new homepage, as the actual link target is hidden by the head bar), I thought I could use it in the property drawers of the entries of my org-contacts file, and noticed the following problems: 1. font lock (aka syntax highlighting) does not yet recognize :PROPERTY+: 2. accumulation doesn't work within the same entry; details follow: For some of my contacts I'd like to record multiple phone numbers or e-mail addresses. So far I have been doing that in an ad hoc manner, e.g. * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org, b...@baz.org :END: While I have not yet automated my usage of org-contacts, I thought it would be more scalable and more accessible to future scripting if multi-valued properties had a clear multi-value representation. (So the feature is not yet mission-critical for me.) I thought that the new accumulation feature might be suitable for that. (Or did I misunderstand the feature?) So when I changed the above contact entry to * Contact Name :PROPERTIES: :EMAIL:f...@bar.org :EMAIL+: b...@baz.org :END: I would have expected (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) to evaluate to, well, at least f...@bar.org b...@baz.org (and in some later version of org-mode maybe to a two-item list, for even easier automated processing). But I got the following unexpected results, which indicate that accumulation is not yet supported in this context (well, if it was ever _intended_…): (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL t) → f...@bar.org (org-entry-get (point) EMAIL+ t) → b...@baz.org Cheers, and thanks for any help, Christoph PS: org-contacts may not be the best tool to use anyway. I like it so far, but if you know a better alternative that satisfies my requirements, I'd appreciate hints. My requirements so far are: * easily capturing information about contacts (addresses, birthdays, but also arbitrary other information) * grouping contacts (e.g. by tagging them) * linking to contacts from other org files * for easy display and editing (e.g. like org columns) -- Christoph Lange, http://www.facebook.com/ch.lange, Skype duke4701
